| Author | Message | ||
     Bomber |
my mistake, xl -- buddy told me he'd haggled a lower price at the local Saturn store | ||
| Xl1200r |
Well, there are a LOT of ways to save money on a car - financing, trade-ins, etc, so there is a little wiggle room in those places. but my brother is the sales manager for the Saturn store in our area and I checked with him about this, and the sticker price is THE price. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
Some good points guys- Virtually every bike under $10k is selling well. Sportster sales took off early this year, then tanked in the 2nd quarter. In the dealers I'm seeing many over $10k Sportsers now- I suspect the dealers saw the trend, thought they'd cash in by marking up Sportsters, and in so doing managed to kill the trend. Cityxslicker, I admire your dedication and wish you were within a day's drive of Minneapolis. Is you're dealership on or near the route of the Empire Builder? Saturn prices- At first, Saturn tried to screw all buyers equally by demanding a ridiculously high markup. When sales slowed, this proved to be a problem as dealers had no easy way to mark down slow selling models to move them. I saw dealers use creative means to move Saturns- like run them in parades, as demos, etc. so they had an excuse to mark them down from MSRP. One dealer in an industrial area got the list of every company GM gave the supplier discount to and found most busyers were eligible for that 18% discount. After some of this "creativity" Saturn changed the policy from "MSRP" to "charge every customer the same price for the same vehicle". | ||
| Jon |
Last week I bought Japanese food from a Japanese food dealer called a restaurant. I ate a spider roll with my wife and a whole lot of other items. I thought about buying direct from Japan, but I figured the unagi would be messed up by the time it got here. So, I did the dealer thing. Wasabi makes my nasal passages scream! | ||
| Jon |
Dora, You still in the Bay Area? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
It ain't Dora. Far from it. You're thinking Buellgirlie. (Message edited by ft_bstrd on October 09, 2008) | ||
| Daves |
OK, I was going to stay out of this but since my name came up? I never "stole" a deal from anyone. If people liked my "goofy Dave promotions" and decided to buy their Buell or Buell parts from me then that is just what it was, their decision. They must have seen some value in dealing with me instead of their local dealer. That is not my fault, it is theirs. I did my promotions because I felt (and still feel) that buying a bike should be more than just a transaction. Buying a bike should be an event( a really fun event), not just a hard, cold exchange of money for a "product". ANY dealer could do similar promotions. Some do, some did for a while. It should come as no big surprise to many of you that I am doing the same thing in my current business. Last Sunday I took the 1st of 5 lucky hunters that won one of the "Hunt with the Double Lung Team" hunts. I had a box on the counter all summer long. Every time you visited my store you could put your name in the box. On the 27th of Sept 2 customers helped me draw out 5 names. Those people are treated to a full day of hunting on private land I have permission to hunt. They show up with their bow and camo, get in my truck and I and other team members take it from there. I personally lead them to a pre hung tree stand (whichever one i think will be the best one on the property for that morning or evening) I make sure they are settled in, I come back and pick them up at the appointed time. We then go into town where I buy them lunch. Back to the woods, to a different stand that is already in place (I have 13 stands on the properties) for the evening hunt. If they are lucky and get something I and other team members will help track, field dress and then drag to the truck. We then, of course would have a picture session of the hunter and his kill. It is an all day deal and we all have a really good time. We did 4 hunts last year and this year I added 1 to make it 5 hunts. Do I "steal"(I mean earn) some bow sales this way? You betcha I do! And I will continue to until the other bow dealers get off their butts and do similar promos with customers. Just as in the Buell business I am pretty sure it won't happen and I will continue to gain market share in my area and beyond. Some of you (Koz) might think this is wrong of me. Ohhhh, those poor other dealers, big bad Dave is stealing their business, blah, blah blah. I disagree. That is how business works. You do a better job, you get more business. Pretty simple really. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Those who feel one dealer "steals" deals from another hasn't been in sales. | ||
| Ironken |
Bullshitgrrrl....nuff said. | ||
| Jon |
Oh yeah!! Thanks, ft_bertrand, or whatever the heck your name is. I wondered what was up. Of course, this is not Dora. Wow...thanks. Yeah so anyway, Blake I'd say this gal is good for biz, but she sure does stink up the joint. | ||
| Doughnut |
I felt (and still feel) that buying a bike should be more than just a transaction. Buying a bike should be an event( a really fun event), not just a hard, cold exchange of money for a "product". I did not bother reading the rest of the posts as there were too many and I only have net about once every two weeks. I loved the Buell I got from the Dealer I dealt with. I had to give up my Buell and when the person I dealt with learned that, I was treated a little different when I came in because I was not in a position to buy. It hurt me a little and I am funny about things like that sometimes. I am in a better place now and am able to get a bike but I won't buy my next bike from them. I have met Dave once, (I'm sure he does not remember), but would buy a bike from him with no hesitation. No one can "steal" a sale. People go and buy where they want to based on what they want and what they are looking for. | ||
| Cityxslicker |
When I say steal from another dealer, I mean we buy their floor stock at invoice costs to get our customers the bikes they want. Apparently, dealer trades are not like they are in the Harley world. You dont trade out unit for unit, instead you purchase the unit at invoice and we sell it at retail. In that my local customer stays local, then I suppose I did have an impact in them not going to another dealer. But we wouldnt be able to buy them from the other guys, if they were selling them there. We have bought them from Corporate Buell, Georgia, and West Virginia as well. We have a unique demand peak this year, and we are working to grow the brand. I have kind of a rep as "that Buell guy" It seems to work for me. The Empire Builder runs through Seattle, we are an hour west of that. Its a short ferry ride. If you are coming into town, drop me a note, I will pick you up at the ferry and get you to the showroom to demo your favorite. | ||
| Court |
DaveS "Gets it". A bike is, in the United States, pretty much a discretionary recreational purchase. I'm in the process of shopping for a "discretionary recreational" 3rd car that is going to be a lot of fun. All the dealers have the same product and I have the advantage of both the economy and the fact that the company has just rolled out a major upgrade for the next model change which I could care less about. It's interesting to go from dealer to dealer to see how I am treated, it's been fun to participate in the owners forum (they are just as passionate as Buell owners) and to attend and participate in events (major one tomorrow) and hear folks stories, good and bad, about their widely varying dealer experiences. Buell has a huge dealer and customer service challenge. The good news is that sales are strong and an unusually enthusiastic and helpful community of owners is currently filling some gaps. We are seeing, too slowly for my taste but I realize the constraints folks are working under, improvement. DaveS understands that selling is solving more of a customers needs than "just the purchase" . . you can get the product about anywhere and most times cheaper. Price, as British Essayist, Critic and Social Theorist John Ruskin once wrote, is the playground of fools. When I started my own business on a shoe string I knew I was competing with huge national construction firms and I had to provide something they did not. My goal was to be "mobile, agile and hostile" and to be simply the BEST. Many magazine articles were written about the company and we were known as the guys you called, from New Orleans, Dallas, KC or Sacramento, if you had a project that had to be PERFECT the first time and on time. We graced many magazine covers from business magazines to Ford Fleet Buyer (we bought all our foreman new Ford pickups every year and they were "unique"). Being in business is fun but identifying what the customer needs and wants and becoming their "answer" is the key to really making excellence fun. Our goal in business was that when we were called into a project, we would handle EVERYTHING and the customer could go worry about other things. Worked for me and it works for everyone who "gets it". The has never been a time in the history of motorcycles that offers more opportunity than the present. Fuel prices on the rise, concerns about alternative transportation and a host of candidate vehicles have folks commuting on two wheels who likely never dreamed they would. It's going to hurt to see 50% of the Harley-Davidson dealers fail the next year (hey, I read the internet) but I suspect Buell and some others are poised to do some great things. I like excellent people and I know, from my own experience, that folks like DaveS and Erik Buell would succeed in the motorcycle business as well as selling Electrolux or being surgeons. Successful folks tend to succeed in everything they do as they see the "big picture". Court | ||
| Xl1200r |
One dealer in an industrial area got the list of every company GM gave the supplier discount to and found most busyers were eligible for that 18% discount. Another example of your lack of expertise. I work for one of those companies that receives the supplier discount and I bought a car using it in May of 2006. The discount is not 18% - in fact it's closer to 4 or 5% (it's a specific amount over invoice, not a 'discount' off MSRP). Secondly, I just dropped off my 2009 1125CR to the dealer for its first service. The owner of the dealership was outside and we chatted some. After talking about how surprised she was to know that in 5 days I had installed GPS, hard bags, heated grips, turn signals, a few other parts, AND ridden the required 620 miles for the first service, she made a comment that I had expected for a while: "I can't believe how many Buell's we've sold this year." I think you're out of touch. | ||
| Koz5150 |
DaveS, please don't consider my comments to be any disrespet for you or your work ethic at all. I can say as a local guy, I have not spent nearly the same amount of time in the dealership as before. You have to also remember we are wearing very different hats. You with your salesman hat on did everything you could to bring business to Appleton HD, and did it really really really well. The two Pegasus Awards are proof of that! I remember the guy who bought a bike from you (details may be a bit fuzzy) and dropped it while pulling out of the parking lot. You stayed and helped fix the guys bike, free labor, to get it back together for him. You paid out of your own pocket to have a HUGE Buell sticker on the back of your personal truck to advertise. I used to make free "Buell of Appleton" stickers for you to hand out to customers. Me with my consumer hat on thinks there should be a guy like DaveS at every dealership. I feel like every time I have to "deal" for the price on a new bike, I have to fight to get the best price. No matter what the price ends up being, in the end, I will always wonder how much extra money did the dealer squeeze out of me? What a great feeling to walk away with when leaving the dealership? Why does Hal's charge almost double for service than Appleton HD, are there mechanics that much smarter? I doubt it. I can get a tune-up with dyno testing cheaper in Appleton then just a tune-up at Hals. They are only 100 miles apart... It is just the way the auto/bike industry has always been. I understand it on used stuff, but it doesn't make sense to me on used stuff. A dealer should be able to promote himself on his great service and relationship with the customer. However, if dealers when you have different prices at dealers for the exact same product (like a new bike) I could care less about the customer relationship, and here is the proof. As stated before I bought my bike at Wilwerts in Iowa. However once the rockerbox gasket and the speedo sensor failed, Appleton Harley did the work to fix it under warranty. When I lived in Milwaukee, I bought my new parts from Appleton because they offered a "Badweb" discount. Bottom line, if you want to sell a bike to me, I go to the lowest bidder, and I will take the time to look. Don't believe me, who is screwing who here??? Recent adds from Cycletrader.com   Did I miss something here, or are these all the exact same product with a $1,900 price difference? (also known as $1,900 worth of screw the customer!) (Message edited by koz5150 on October 10, 2008) (Message edited by koz5150 on October 10, 2008) | ||
| Koz5150 |
Then again, who knows, maybe Buell just decides to change the price they sell bikes to each dealership??? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
No, different dealers have different philosophies in dealing. Most dealers list MSRP in websites and online adds. They place a greater interest in local dealing rather than internet bargain shopping. Other dealers are working to expand their market beyond just the local and so are willing to advertise a lower price on the website. I'd bet that you could come to within $500 of the same deal price with any of those dealers even though the advertised starting price was different. | ||
| Koz5150 |
I'd bet that you could come to within $500 of the same deal price with any of those dealers even though the advertised starting price was different. And why should I have to do that??? | ||
| Xl1200r |
Me with my consumer hat on thinks there should be a guy like DaveS at every dealership. I feel like every time I have to "deal" for the price on a new bike, I have to fight to get the best price. No matter what the price ends up being, in the end, I will always wonder how much extra money did the dealer squeeze out of me? Two things come to my mind when reading your post: a) If you feel that someone like Dave should be at every dealer, then use your DOLLARS to make that statement, and only buy from them. If you bargain shop on the internet with no regard for the type of place your buying from, then you're saying otherwise. This is how capitalism works. The CONSUMER is the reason why dealers are they way they are. b) A dealership is a business. Period. As such, they need to make money. Period. They exist to make a profit, just like any other business. Some are run differently than others and can afford a lower sale price on a bike, others can not because they spend extra in other places to make the ownership experience as a whole better. Again, this is where you vote with your dollars. If you insist on internet bargain hunting for the rock bottom price on a bike, and end up buying from a dealer that doesn't care about the customer, doesn't know squat about Buell and saves money by not sending techs to Buell training in order to get you that lower price, then you've just told the Buell world that all you care about it price, and it's not worth it to them to do those extra things that you say you want. Why would a dealer spend the time and money to get good people hired, and train those they already have if they know they've got your business already because of the low price? You're pulling the rope at both ends. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Xl1200r - Sorry But i got to disagree with you. In my perfect world, All new bikes would be sold for one set price. When I buy a new bike. I am buying the experiance and tech knowledge of the Buell Motor company. I am getting NOTHING from the dealership. This is 100% true also when buying parts. HOWEVER, when I go to pay for service work I am now spending money on the training and experiance of the people at a dealership or independent shop. Now the knowledge and skill is the product, not the bike. This is where it should be left to the dealer's discretion to set prices. This is also true for buying used bikes. I am relying on the fact that the dealer has evaluated and priced the used bike fairly. It is at that point that the price discussion can start. If we both agree on a fair price, a transaction can take place, if not, then I should look elsewhere and the dealer can wait for another customer that agree's with his assesment of the worth of the product. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
And why should I have to do that??? It's called a negotiation. If you aren't comfortable with that, be prepared to pay a potentially higher price than someone who is willing to netotiate. I negotiate EVERYWHERE. I once bought a washer and dryer from Lowes. I always ask "is this your best price". They said yes. I went across town and saw the same washer and dryer at another dealer. They were smaller and local. They were willing to deal at a lower price. I went back to Lowes and asked for a refund. The lady at the desk said "you know we price match plus 10%, right?". I said, "thank you, but I asked if the price quoted was the best price available. Your person said yes. I'm not going to reward Lowes for not being willing to negotiate." I bought the washer and dryer across the street and went without the extra 10% of the difference. I wanted to reward the dealership who was willing to work and earn my business. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
In my perfect world, All new bikes would be sold for one set price. When I buy a new bike. I am buying the experiance and tech knowledge of the Buell Motor company. I am getting NOTHING from the dealership. This is 100% true also when buying parts. You aren't taking into account the overhead differences between dealers, the supply and demand at that dealer, and the differences in CPI between locations within the US. $10,000 for a bike in NYC isn't the same as it is for a $10,000 bike in Jackson, MS. | ||
| Koz5150 |
I bought the washer and dryer across the street and went without the extra 10% of the difference. So you negotiated to the almost best price??? Digest that statement for a minute... | ||
| Koz5150 |
Refer back to the title of this thread "Taking the dealer out of the loop- buying factory direct!? " Hell yeah I would love to buy a bike at the same price a dealer gets to. 99 times out of 100, I know more about the bike on the floor then the salesman. I HAVE NO INTEREST IN PAYING FOR DEALER OVERHEAD. | ||
| Buellgrrrl |
First off, to the name callers, grow up- blowhards like you have scared customers away from Harley for decades and damn near killed the Motor Company while Honda et al motored on by. Besides, just think of what I can do with a name like "Iron..." HOG hit another yearly low today... HOG and Buell as a part of it need to keep customers to survive. So children, if you want to kill Buell and HOG, just keep it up. Thanks for your comments Dave. One of the more stifling attitudes at HOG is the philosophy that HOG is the whole market and bikes like the M2 Cyclone will only canabalize Sportster sales, or that a dealer that prices down to the market will merely reduce dealer profits. Thanks to that attitude, Buell has no replacement for my Cyclone and dealers think I'll pay $10k out the door for an XB9SX or a thousand or two more for an XB12Scg to get a low seat. They forget that there's a big market out there beyond their dealership's doors, and I can buy a BMW 800 twin for the same $10k OTD and be able to get parts for it for decades. Or a WeeStrom for three thousand dollars less... Suffice to say, if Dave were still in Appleton I'd buy from him if the price was in the same ballpark as the other dealars. Cityxslicker is doing a great job nearly 2000 miles away from me, and I'd even consider buying a bike from him and riding it home in November. Meanwhile, the nearest dealer to me has zilch chance of getting my business... I'm almost looking forward to their bankruptcy. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
So you negotiated to the almost best price??? Digest that statement for a minute... No. I was willing to leave 10% of the 20% price difference on the table in order to give the business to the firm I felt did the most to earn the business. Conversely, I paid slightly more (2% more) not to reward a firm I felt offered little in my buying process. The BEST price is not always the LOWEST. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Koz, what do you do for a living. My guess is that you are in some sort of technical or engineering field. | ||
| Koz5150 |
The BEST price is not always the LOWEST. So very true. Every situation is different. For instance, if you buy your kid a dirtbike at the local Yamaha dealer your child gets free use of their on-site track! Trust me, if I could find a local Buell dealership that offored me the same deal for their on-site road course, I wold pay the $1,900 more. I just haven't found that dealership yet. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Process metrics and measurement... go figure! It's all about consistancy, and value. | ||
| Xl1200r |
When I buy a new bike. I am buying the experiance and tech knowledge of the Buell Motor company. I am getting NOTHING from the dealership. This is 100% true also when buying parts. Which is exactly why there are so few GOOD dealers out there - you refuse to support to decent ones on the BIGGEST purchase you make from them. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM, to put it bluntly. If I were a dealer, and you were a regular customer of mine buying oil and filters or getting service done, but bought every single one of your bikes from someone else because they gave you a $300 better price than I could, I probably woudln't care about your business all that much, and would rather invest my time (remember, time=money) into a customer who WILL buy a bike from me. So you negotiated to the almost best price??? Digest that statement for a minute... What he did is what everyone else who gripes about bad Buell dealers should be doing - he VOTED with his dollars. He felt jerked around by Lowe's, so he was willing to spend a little more somewhere else in order to give the business to someone who he felt treated him fairly. The BEST price is not always the LOWEST. Amen. |
