| Author | Message | ||
     Crusty |
Hey Rocket; just for the record, my M2 averaged 55 MPG on the trip to Wisconsin for the 20th. You are right, though. If you're buying a Brutale, you wouldn't give a rats ass about fuel economy. Personally, I'd take a Thunderfart with Lightning ergonomics. But that's just what I'd spend my money on. | ||
| Smitty |
Rocket The article actually said "there's a strange quirk to the bikes intake system (also noted on the F4superbike tested in September, 2000) where the vacuum at closed throttle seems to hold the butterflies closed. Try to rollinto the gas and there is resistance, but when you break the "seal," }snap , more throttle than you wanted. It's a little herky-jerky and strange." Im sure it is like anything you get used to it with use. Take care,Later. Tim | ||
| Mikexlr650 |
is it me or does the 2 page photo (maybe it's blurry for more than to just show speed) show the usual frame dent associated with a hard drop of a xb series bike. in addition where are the mirrors?? | ||
| Glitch |
Good eye Mike! And as far as the mirrors go, I think you answered your own question. | ||
| Glitch |
And... As far as the cover goes... Speaking as a commercial artist student, it's a train wreck, I don't think the person responsible, has enough talent to make any bike look bad.  | ||
| Lornce |
Haven't seen the latest Cycle World but viewing other recent mags have noticed it's becoming common to see "mass centralization" in the hyperbole surrounding new model introductions. From Honda's Moto-GP machines to KTM's latest superbike twin 999, mass centralization's being heralded as the latest breakthrough in chassis design technology. The Katoom (which is a beautifully purposeful looking bike) even wears an underslung muffler.... How about the latest "concept bike" from Yamaha: the MT03 Super Single? Hmmmn, streetfighter commando horn-looks, belt drive, and what's this? Horizontally mounted rear shock to facilitate "extreme mass centralization". If imitation truly is the sincerest form of flattery.... Lornce | ||
| Dynarider |
Buell didnt invent the term mass centralization, its been around a long long time. They just market it better than others do. Other manufacturers promote hp, top speed etc. Buell cant do that so they promote mass centralization. | ||
| Lornce |
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| Bomber |
Glitch -- you're either right on target regarding the art director's, er, glitch, or he/she spent too much time studying the 1930's German "Circus" design school Dyna -- sheesh . . . . . | ||
| Lornce |
Re. the KTM Duke's handling prowess compared to XB Buells, M200 (or something like that) says: "Not in the twisties. It has a 57" wheelbase. Although I like chome moly, I doubt the frame is as stiff as the XB. In a straight line, sure. But, if that is what you are interest in, there are plenty of better bikes for probably a lot less money." While Alan Cathcart, re. KTM Duke, says: "The lightweight v-twin's lack of inertia..... the ease with which it flicks so effortlessly from side to side. No other bike with this size of engine and power handles so quickly or steers so easily." And this from Firebolt racing Cycle Canada moto-journo Costa Mouzouris: "Both bikes (xbs&r) exhibited a trait I became familiar with while racing my Firebolt - the front end seems almost welded to the pavement in turns.... the Firebolt offers the best feedback and grip from the front end I've ever experienced on a motorcycle." Me: "Sounds like it's pretty tough to buy a bad motorcycle these days. But I think the XB12R is prettier, especially in red." Lornce | ||
| Blake |
I agree with Lornce. I Don't understand why so many feel the need to malign one brand/model of motorcycle simply because they prefer another. Like Court always says... These days, there is no bad motorcycle. I'd love to have one of those Royal Enfields with the kick start. Too cool. JQ, Personal opinions are one thing and what we pay to get as part of a motorcycle comparison article. I value the opinions of credible authors who evaluate and report in a fair and balanced way on the traits and performance of motorcycles in a comparison test. That is a far cry from what I see in Mr. Hoyer's descriptions and points of discussion in the Buell/Duc/MV naked bike comparo. I'll paraphrase the main points that indicate Mr. Hoyer's prejudice... 1a. The Duc is messy looking but it doesn't matter when you are riding it. 1b. The Buell's muffler, though mostly hidden from view, is ugly. 2a. The MV becomes dangerously unstable over a bumpy road; no amount of suspension adjustment improved the problem; it's just a quirk; no big deal. 2b. It is noteworthy that the Buell is less than smooth negotiating highway expansion joints; we didn't bother to adjust the suspension settings to improve the ride. 3a. The throttle on the MV as on the MV superbike we tested wants to stick closed. It's just another quirk. 3b. It is notable that the Buell's oil reservoir tucked away under the bike near the swingarm pivot can get hot. 4a. The large group photo of the parked bikes is very complementary of the Duc and MV. 4b. The large group photo of the parked bikes is extremely uncomplimentary of the Buell. Mr. Hoyer was obviously looking for trivial non-problems on the Buell but dismisses serious defficencies and even dangerous problems on the MV. Hoyer chose adjectives with unmistakable negative connotations when describing the Buell. He fabricated bogus technical reasoning when comparing the engine characteristics of the Buell and MV, again using derogatory descriptions to push his prejudice against the Buell. I have zero criticism of the fact that Hoyer and apparently the others like the MV best over the Duc and Buell. I thought my criticism was pretty clear. But hey, it's kinda fun to debate the issue with you. My cover looks fine from a printing quality standpoint. The red "Cycle World" print is rich and deep. The depiction posted above by Glitch is exactly what I see on my issue. Are you telling me you think that pic of the XB12S looks good to you? Honest opinions and balanced reporting are one thing; spinning a review by nit picking one bike while making excuses for another is entirely another situation. One reflects personal thought and integrity, one reflects bias and prejudice. Rocket, I have no idea what kind of fuel mileage my Cyclone gets at the track. I know it would get far better than a Brutale. Does that make a difference? To a LOT of people, yerdamrightitdoes! Look at how many comments are made about the limited fuel range of the XB's. On the road, even on the Nallinized bike, I've never seen less than 40 mpg, and coming home from Colorado in 1998, cruising through the thin air at 70-75 mph, I saw two tanks in a row achieve an astounding 73 mpg. That was a stock Cyclone loaded down with camping gear, the only mod being a #45 slow jet. Oh, and the above reported "27 mpg" for the Brutale is a typo; according to CW, the Brutale only managed 23 mpg. That is ridiculous. Even with 5.28 gallons, that would net you a max safe refuel range of around 100 miles. The Buell at 42 mpg with 3.7 gallon capacity will give you better than that. MikeXR650, You nailed it! At least now we know why the XB12S was positioned the way it was in the group photo, to hide the damaged side of the bike. CW was apparently ashamed to admit that they dropped the bike. Would be interesting to hear "the rest of the story" on that. Rocket, Yes, I think the Brutale would look even better with the pipes tucked up underneath the seat in Ducati 996/998 fashion, especially with the ssswingarm. The pipes do look nice though. Way better than the typical mongo honkin sized squared off cans we see on the S4 and on most Japanese sport bikes. | ||
| Steve_a |
Yes, the Buell was dropped hard during this test -- one of the riders clipped a largish rock that had fallen in the roadway near the apex of a turn, and he went hard into the bank where the rock had come from. The Buell was very substantially damaged, the rider fortunately not. The 12 had to be replaced with another bike before performance tests could be run. I wasn't a participant, so I can't really comment on much else, though the impression I got from talking to people who were there was that all three bikes were about as much fun as you can have on two wheels. | ||
| Smitty |
Thanks steve. Wish you had this assignment. | ||
| Steve_a |
Oh, as to cover design. We had empirical proof a long time ago that extremely busy covers sell magazines. When I was running Cycle, we initially did very beautiful, poster-like covers. (check out the 1989 issues) CW, in contrast, shortly after figuring out celebrity covers don't sell bike mags, began doing "BIKES! BIKES! BIKES!" covers, with a large number of images. For about 6-8 months they kicked our ass on the news stand, until the sales figures trickled back (there's a long lag) and we reacted. We changed our design and soon outsold them -- but by then Cycle had already been marked for death by corporate management. And those busy CW covers were one reason that Cycle was the chosen victim. | ||
| Bomber |
cycle's last issue was a sad event (there can never be too much information, nor too much competition, I think), but, if memory serves, it contained an odd group of pieces . . . .I seem to remember thinkin something along the lines of, "yikes, if they think these guns and ammo pieces are what folks buy this book for, mebbe they SHOULD fold their tents" still, a loss from which the bike community has yet to recover, I think (the political rantings of a couple of the Motorcyclist staffers mean that most months, CW is it). | ||
| Buckinfubba |
I just stood in walmart today and read this story....it seemed fine to me.... I read between the lines and what I got out of it was this... the buell cost less, maintance cost are less, more than likely insurance cost are less, and if you read real closely....the buell had the most "useable" powerband for the street.... maybe my comprehension is bad but thats what I got out of it. | ||
| Bigj |
Blake: You do know that those Enfields can be had with ELECTRIC start this year.  | ||
| Blake |
Thanks Steve for stopping by and giving us the rest of the story. Very glad the rider was not injured. Big, Yeah I know, bummer eh? Hey man, I like the old time kick start only bikes. My dad's old 1971 CB450 often wore down the battery to the point the electric starter was left impotent. Was kinda enjoyable using the kick start to get it going. On a Buell a kick start would be dangerous without a compression release or timing retardation scheme to go along with it, but it would be cool. | ||
| M2me |
The Royal Enfield with electric start has a kick starter if you want to use it. About a year ago Cycle World did an issue on bikes under $5000. The Enfield was one of the bikes they reviewed (the Buell Blast was another). If I had any extra money I'd buy a Royal Enfield in a minute and I'd kick start it every time! | ||
| Steve_a |
>>cycle's last issue was a sad event (there can never be too much information, nor too much competition, I think), but, if memory serves, it contained an odd group of pieces . . . .I seem to remember thinkin something along the lines of, "yikes, if they think these guns and ammo pieces are what folks buy this book for, mebbe they SHOULD fold their tents" << I remember that rather odd John Burns piece on riding to a gun meet -- you never quite knew what you'd get back when you sent Burns out for a feature story. However, it wasn't as if we had any idea that the last issue was going to be the last issue. We shipped the magazine on Friday, and they told me on Sunday night and the staff first thing on Monday about the closing. The staff got two week's notice. My editorial (a different one had been written) went in as a correction a week after the announcement, and the editorial director of Hachette got into a lot of trouble for letting it run because it didn't cast an extremely favorable light on David Pecker, the Hachette CEO at the time, and the man who insisted that either CW or Cycle had to die. Of course, in retrospect, it was hardly necessary for me to do that -- Pecker has created his own indelible reputation. He's currently running the company that publishes National Enquirer and Weekly World News -- and as he said as he announced the closing to the Cycle staff: "It's not about quality." I'd gladly pay to have that engraved on his tombstone. | ||
| Road_thing |
Steve: Isn't it enough that his NAME will be engraved on his tombstone? Thanks for the insight--I enjoy the mag. I've been a subscriber for a while. r-t | ||
| Rocketman |
Blake I overlooked your talent with numbers - silly me. Now about the thirsty MV - and I concur MCN returned a similar figure but I was under the impression they were never out of the throttle. Speaking of throttle that's the first I've read in any MV test of such a trait - perhaps suggesting it's associated with US spec MV's, I dunno? I'd be very surprised though if the MCN crew didn't pick up on it. Anyway it's pretty clear that there are many here who'd bury their head in the sand than admit how much they like the Brutale. I imagine it works kinda like this (often) - spurious make of cool looking concept motorcycle appears out of thin air - "wow" say some, "if only they'd bring out that puppy I'd be at the front of the queue". You know what happens next? I'll tell ya. That spurious motorcycle makes it into production - then those queue jumpers are suddenly nowhere to be seen. It's always struck me as strange, more so where American folk are concerned, that the choice of Buell has little to do with its 'hooligan' status. Remember when the S1 was THE 'Hooligan Streetfighter'? Whatever happened to that line? Maybe I'm wrong but I always get the impression that most American Buellers place a high percentage of patriotism in their choice, nothing wrong with that, - proof being that their other choice of ride tends more often than not to be something much more 'run of the mill' rather than something as or more exotic than a Buell. Me, I'd always want to go one better and the Brutale could well be that one better. Maybe that's why some of you bury your head in the sand but hey don't feel so bad, it only does 23mpg!! Choices eh? Rocket  | ||
| Blake |
Rocket, I'm confused, I don't see anyone saying that the MV ain't a really cool bike. I certainly think it is. I don't see anyone burying their head in the sand other than the author of the CW comparison article. I'll admit that Buell being an American based bike adds to its appeal for me. That wasn't my primary reason for going with a Buell. You do know that I was going in to purchase a Speed Triple when I got the demo ride on the S1 that hooked me right? T'is true, I had figured the speed triple was my kind of bike, until I rode that red S1 with the KT pipe. Lonestar HD/Buell/Triumph in Tyler, Texas. I had no idea what a Buell was. Now look at me.  | ||
| Rocketman |
I think I'm a little surprised, more so knowing the wealth and enthusiasm of some here, that no one's put their hand up and said 'hey I'm buying one', yet there are those who are quick to point out certain alleged inadequacies of the Brutale - supposedly based on some crap article written in CW. Am I the only one who's looking at buying one? See I'm wondering whether MV will be bold enough to slot their new 1000cc motor in one next year. Wow you reckon it'd do 165? Nah can't be it'd only do 8mpg and have a range of 10 city blocks! Damn fine looking filly though. Rocket | ||
| Jim_m |
"See I'm wondering whether MV will be bold enough to slot their new 1000cc motor in one next year. " I've read that the Brutale will stay with the 750cc for the foreseeable future...I believe that's Claudio's take on the Brutale as of a few month's ago. | ||
| Bomber |
Steve -- having worked on the periphery of the publishing business for much of my life, I can attest that it is, perhaps more than most, filled with highly-skilled, enthusiastic, dedicated individuals on the publishing side of the effort, and often full of snake-oil salesmen on the bbusiness side . . . . in any event, as a long time subscriber to both, please accept my thanks for your efforts, both in print, and here | ||
| Grndskpr |
I'd love to have one of those Royal Enfields with the kick start. Too cool. No you wouldnt(well maybe but its not as much fun in person as it is in print) the bike(a freind bought one new last year) is very slow, it has a top speed of about 50(not good on chicago highways) has very old tech, dealers are far and few between(he went to indiana to some dentist who sold them out of there garage) they handle very poorly, and seem to go through POINTS on a weekly basis(maybe they just need to be adjusted weekly) While it was fun for a spin around the block(all bikes are) i really dont think you would be happy with it long term, i think you money would be better spend on a used cyclone or S1 for about the same price, now dont get me wrong, i thought it would be cool, a vintage look with modern items, unfortunatly its a vintage bike with vintage parts, being produced in a vintage factory, maybe fun around town, but i think the fun would where off really fast, at least for me it did ROger | ||
| Glitch |
Are you telling me you think that pic of the XB12S looks good to you? Absolutely not! Would I have done differently? Youbetcha! But then some MV and Duc owners may call me biased... What I'm saying is the cover looks like hell. Busy or not the cover could be done better by anyone that wanted it to look good. It just looks thrown together with no thought at all (except to hide the scuffed part of the Buell). Steve, empirical proof or not that cover (to me) isn't well designed, I think a busy cover doesn't have to look like a train wreck. That is only my opinion. | ||
| Bomber |
Glitch . . .I agree with you, from a design standpoint, but, in this instance, design is secondary to filthy lucre, and the crazy design, according to those who know (i.e., Steve A) sells more issues . . . . that's the cover's job, at the end of the day | ||
| Cj_xb |
I think a busy cover doesn't have to look like a train wreck. I agree, it looks like crap to me !! I know the cover has to sell, and some may like this one, it's all a matter of taste, but I've seen better !! CJ |
