| Author | Message | ||
     Sportyeric |
I think this is one of those area where street and track riding have different goals. Watching Rossi sliding the rear around to square off a turn is not the sort of thing I want to do on the street. I would guess that part of how he does it would be to use the front brake to unload the rear tire.(maybe) On the street, survival is the goal. Stability the key. Whether you're balls out suicidal and using every inch of tarmac or just trying to stay in the portion of the road that gives you a safety margin, its more fun if you push the limits of the markers that you've set for yourself. Keith Code may have it right that rear brake trail-breaking is a sign of a suspension short-coming but that's what I work with compared to you guys. Through trial and error, I've found that the rear brake gets my bike into a "squat" that keeps it more stable for whatever else I'm gonna do next, be that lean more, apply the front brake, or pin the throttle. And I've found my buddy's S1 rear brake to be so weak as to be non-existant, which might just mean that the Sportster rear brake is way too much. | ||
| Ferris |
On the street I'm not trying to go as fast as possible for as long as possible. that's all well and good, but i continue to make my point that Mike M originally simply asked what trail braking was, and got a bunch of replies saying it's one of the seven deadly sins on the street. and that perception persists. some of you are convinced, it seems, that if you DO trail brake on the street then you're riding at the limit, and that's just not (necessarily) the case. i trail brake when i ride, occasionally, sometimes, when the mood strikes, when the conditions warrant, and i do NOT ride 10/10ths, or anywhere close, on the street. and i'm willing to bet that some of you folks here who are so adament that this is a "track only" maneuver do it occasionally when you street ride and aren't even aware of it. haven't any of you ever drug one of your brakes to help hold a line when, say, the road suddenly gets dirty from the crap a lazy-assed car driver's tires kicked out from cheating on a corner and slinging gravel out from the shoulder? (geez, Ferris, frikkin' BRILLIANT sentence structure on THAT one...) Blake, seriously, you NEVER trail brake on the street? FB | ||
| V2win |
I confess! I have trail braked. In fact just yesterday I was trailbraking. Im sorry. It was such a nice day. I was by myself with no one around. The urge came over me and soon there I was, trailbraking. One thing you never want to do with your Buell is "brake trail". That is a no-no and the social pressure would be too great. You might be banned forever from the Bad Web.  | ||
| Reepicheep |
There is another thing that people might be describing and calling trail breaking (but is probably not). Not only is it perfectly safe, but is in fact safer to do then not do. And that thing is getting lightly on the rear brake in any potentially dangerous situation... any time you would be covering the front brake (fingers out and around the lever, not quite pulling... yet) I would argue that you ought to be already on the rear brake lightly. This serves to transfer some of the weight to the front tire, not so much to monkey with the suspension, but to make it so you can start braking harder faster (if it turns out to be necessary) without locking up the front. It also gets the rear brake light on, so people behind you have time to perk up and pay attention that there is a potential threat ahead. This includes swerving and obviously drunk bicyclists, blind corners and hills, drivers inching into intersections, people on cell phones, any animals, and probably, most reasonably aggressive turns. Whenever coming into these situations, I cover the front brake lever, put just a little drag on the rear, sit up as straight as I can (to see and be seen better) and proceed with caution. In the situation of a turn, it generally means I drag the back brake just a little until I am completely comfortable with my speed, my line, the road surface, possible hazzards from either side, and all oncoming traffic. In other words, until about the apex. People might describe this as trail braking, but it has nothing to do with trying to get through a corner faster, and everything to do with having the bike set up to stop sooner if necessary. | ||
| Tripper |
... and ALWAYS ride with both hands on the bars! | ||
| S320002 |
Ferris, No reason you couldn't do both. My point was that the XB steering geometry is likely to change less under braking. I've taken Code's classes too. You're right, he really doesn't seem to have much use for the rear brake. If one trailbrakes: front brake is applied causing the front end to lower making the bike turn in more quickly due to the steeper fork angle. When the front forks compress under braking, the wheelbase is shortened because of the rake angle. This would make the steering quicker. If the fork angle gets steeper under braking you've got some serious frontend flex. Unless of course this is referring to the fork angle in relation to the road surface rather than a change in frame to fork geometry. | ||
| Sarodude |
How about we change that to 'use as much of the traction budget for as long as possible as efficiently as possible'... -Saro | ||
| Bomber |
I trailbrake on every ride I take (generally using the rear brake, but then, I grew up in the dirt) . . .. . I am generally nowhere near 10/10s, but I enjoy using the skill, and practicing it, as well (I recently read that it takes 5-750 repititions for something to become muscle memory . . . . ) I chuckle when someone sez "So and so sez never use the front brake!" I don't, and I'm faster than Motorola!" bullshit. these things go in waves, like other fashions . . . . time was, REAL motorcyclists used their rear brakes and didn't scrape their knees . . . .anyone wanna say Hailwood didn't know what he was doin? bottom line, it's generally a good idea to get your speed adjustment done when you're close to upright, and save the LATE BRAKING heroics for the track . . .. . . . once ya got some miles on ya, start practicing lowspeed, light-pressure trail braking so you can tell what youre bike will, and can, do | ||
| Nevco1 |
Amen, Bomber....Amen. | ||
| Blake |
FB, Absolutely, I will brake in a turn when required to avoid bad stuff. I meant to convey that in my first post where I said "Save it for the track or emergency situations on the street."  I try to make minimal use of the brakes when navigating twisty roads. I like the philosophy of "The Pace." | ||
| Bomber |
can I get a witness? put your HAND on the book, and say amennnnnna! ya hang around long enough, everything gets invented again! (I remember when I invented left foot braking in my Saab, only to find out later that the rally guys got there first) every street rider should get out in the dirt once a year or so to re-invent bike dynamics hisownself | ||
| M1combat |
Well, OK, here's my .3c... I only have .3c because I only have about 2K miles on a sportbike and even those are on an '82 CB750F-SS. Admittedly a fast motorcycle when it was new, but nothing like the new ones. I'll have an XB12R this Friday. What I do have however is a great deal of experience in four wheel racing simulations. I beta tested a simulation that is used by many FIA GT teams for practice. The development team I tested for is now in business with Henrik Roos who you may know as the team owner of Roos Optima racing. They campaign a Dodge Viper in FIA GT (and do quite well I might add). In case you happen to look, there is an "SBDT" logo on the Optima Roos Viper... That's us . Anyway, on with the rest of my .3c... "Trail" braking (IMO) is indeed not an indication of which brake is used. It is true in a car that you brake with all wheels at the same time, but the brake BIAS is generally adjustable. On four wheels there are a few reasons to trail brake. The main thing you are trying to accomplish with trail braking is rotation. Thus, you would only trail brake in those situations where the shape of the turn was such that extra rotation is necessary before you can get on the gas. Basically, it's used for the same reason you would get on the throttle a little "extra" to kick the rear end out (Keep in mind what your optimum slip angle is), it's just that it can be used while braking. As far as technique, it seems as if using both brakes (of course being VERY careful with them!) would be best as that would allow you to unload the rear tire so that less rear brakes will cause the same rotation. We've all watched bike racing. You see when someone is out braking someone else and their rear gets a little outside and they gradually let off the rear to get the bike back in line and then apply throttle... You can do the same thing on the normal line. Problem is that the need for trail braking is defined by the shape of the corner. You don't need to trail brake in every corner. Also, keep in mind that the absolute KING on the racetrack is exit speed. Brake early so that you can get a good percentage of the rotation done in the beginning of the turn so as to be able to get on the throttle sooner. It's for this reason that the shape of the corner dictates whether or not to use trail braking. A decreasing radius corner is obviously a great candidate for trail braking as you don't want to be doing apex speed all the way through the early part of the corner. However, I don't exactly see THAT situation as trail braking as such... more like braking in a non-straight line if you get my drift. No pun intended. Anyway, the point of trail braking as I see it is to keep yourself at your optimum slip angle where you will generate the most grip. BTW, No, I haven't read twist of the Wrist I/II or Soft Physics but I certainly intend to. As always, keep the tech. coming. | ||
| M1combat |
Oh, and as far as the 10/10ths thing, I pretty much agree. There shouldn't be much reason to use trail braking unless you are really trying to make time. If you find yourself NEEDING to trail brake and you don't think you are near the limit, maybe you need a bike with higher limits or you have a suspension problem. In either case, you also need life insurance. Trail braking IMO is something that only needs to be used at the edge of the envelope because it actually modifies the envelope just a tad. Because the modification is only just a tad, you should be near the edge when you use it or you don't really need it. Maybe adjust your style?? I guess what I am saying is... If you use trail braking to try to use the last 10% of the envelope and something changes and you get that 10% back, the bike will try to change direction accordingly. If you only use trail braking to get that extra 1% and something goes wrong that gives you back that 1% then the adverse reaction of the bike will be less. I would think that there are other ways to more safely extract that other 9%... I am certainly not going to tell you what to do, but I think it's a bad idea to even SEARCH for that last 10% on the road. | ||
| Crusty |
I think I'm much better at wind breaking than trail braking... | ||
| Nevco1 |
Crusty...So that was you at the Buell 20th Banquet. | ||
| Nevco1 |
M1...Am truly envious of your 4 wheel experience on track. Your 2 wheel philosophy parallels the one in EasyFlier's earlier post and referral to WWW.Trackdod.org and I concur with the info provided there for use on the track. All...Track vs Street appears to be the contention here as well as 7/10ths vs 10/10ths Plus riding. Many of the posts including mine were aimed at street riding with the emphasis on making safe but quick time over unfamiliar roads or perhaps the first lap of the day on those you ride regularly. Track experience is a wonderful thing provided the balls to the wall attitude is left on the track and the learned skills be transferred to the street. Some folks just don't seem to live long if they don't make the adaptation and sometimes take their friends with them. Unfortunately, we recently had some traumatic experiences with a few of our Brothers that seems to confirm a need for a thread like this. Perhaps for future posts on this thread we should identify whether we are referring to street or track practices. Blake does a good job of this as do a few others. From my personal perspective, I have watched too many track riders/racers die or get seriously injured on the Ortega Hwy in So Cal while applying their best form on unpredictable canyon and mountain road surfaces. Even with the use of scouts with two way radios and CHP spotters there are some things you just can't predict. Ergo, leave the 10/10th's stuff where it belongs...On the Track. | ||
| Rocketman |
Trail-braking is a subtle driving technique that allows for later braking and increased corner entry speed. The classical technique is to complete braking before turn-in. This is a safer, easier technique for the driver because it separates traction management into two phases, braking and cornering, so the driver doesn't have to chew gum and walk at the same time, as it were. With the trail-braking technique, the driver carries braking into the corner, gradually trailing off the brakes while winding in the steering. SloJoe nailed it on Sacborg. Rocket  | ||
| Dynarider |
M1...Am truly envious of your 4 wheel experience on track Bill..it wasnt a real track I do have however is a great deal of experience in four wheel racing simulations. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Trail braking is EXTREMELY important, not just for the track; but, for the street as well. On the street, I try to never use my brakes. I try to pick a corner speed that will allow me to to get through the corner quickly and have fun; however, sometime as corner surprizes me. When a corner jumps out at you, you have to be able to react safely. Too many times I've seen people react poorly to panic situations, myself included. Trail braking can save your ass. I, personally, never use the rear brake. That's not true, I use it to hold the bike at stoplights. in racing situations, the bike is often so loaded on the front that te slightes brake ot the rear will cause it to slide. I don't want that. On the street, the rear may help; but, it's always had bad results for me in panic situations so I just don't use it. Ferris and Firemanjim do. That confuses the hell out of me because we usually ride the same pace on the street. Works for them. So what is trail braking? An extreme example is Rossi backing it into a corner. He is trail braking so hard (With the front brakes, trail braking is all about loading the front suspension) that he is lifting the rear wheel slightly and then "pitching the rear of the bike into the corner. Point and shoot. I think the term came from car racing (non-independent brakes). The vast majority of stopping power in cars is in the front brakes. Vik | ||
| Mbsween |
Speaking of the pace article and the pace2, Nick Ienatsch excellent book, Sport riding Techniques, cover this subject pretty thoroughly. Ferris, when I said leave the rear brake to the pros (in a corner), I was trying to convey that its easy to screw up doing that , especially on a bike with lots of torque at low rpm. Overdrawing your traction budget becomes trivial. Something like this ... roll off for the corner, setup the lean angle while dragging the rear brake, roll on maintenance throttle....DOH! Again, not that it can't be done, it just brings you closer to the tires traction limit. I believe the 10/10ths stuff comes from corner entry speed, not so much what you're doing in a corner. So I'm with you on the braking into a corner thing (whatever we decide to call it) I trail brake all the time, I happen to use the front brake, it helps to shorten the corner. V2win, I can't believe you trail brake  . After riding Wayah road with your group, I was convinced you all had burned out brake lights. I don't think I saw you use the brake, other than at a gas station, for 250 miles of twisties. | ||
| Rocketman |
Trail braking is done on the front brake. No matter what hocus - pocus you think is going on the purpose of trail braking is to negotiate the corner as fast as possible. I'll add a little more seeing as how confused you all are. On a motorcycle trail braking has become a modern technique used by racers to negotiate the corner as quickly as possible. It is only done on the FRONT brake - necessitating counter steering in an effort to turn - simply because you are faster into the corner due to higher entry speed allowed by trail braking - and can only serve the purpose of cornering faster because you are pushing the machine to the extreme of maximum cornering speed otherwise there is no point in trail braking. When trail braking with the front brake on a motorcycle thus counter steering you are loading the front tyre. It is this loading of the front tyre that causes most low side get-offs in racing. Be warned, slicks can cope with this style of riding much more so than road tyres. Incidentally when you see guys like McCoy or Rossi unloading the rear then counter steering to the point of making the back end slide around the corner the circumstances are different in as much as the purpose of the manoeuvre is to follow a non natural line around the corner - be it for overtaking or to drop inside of the guy in front or in an effort to find a faster way around the corner - but this action is more of throttle control rather than trail braking simply because in such a manoeuvre trail braking here is causing extreme loading of the front tyre leading to a possible low side. This is Wrong..... So what is trail braking? An extreme example is Rossi backing it into a corner. He is trail braking so hard (With the front brakes, trail braking is all about loading the front suspension) that he is lifting the rear wheel slightly and then "pitching the rear of the bike into the corner. Point and shoot. By the way, Keith Code's got fuck all on me! Rocket edited by rocketman on November 04, 2003 | ||
| Mikej |
The throttle is for increasing speed and maintaining speed, The brakes are for decreasing speed and maintaining speed, The combination of the two is what keeps one on the road or on the track, Regardless of what you call it or how you define various terminology the bottom line is still to complete the ride without crashing. Terms like "trail braking" and like "truth" really have to be defined on an individual basis. Everybody is right and everybody is wrong to someone. The road is for riding, The track is for racing. There are few absolutes, but crashing always sucks. If you get lost in the details then you'll never make it around the corner. | ||
| Mikej |
Has anyone mentioned counter-steering in this thread yet? | ||
| Nevco1 |
Yeah, I did mention countersteering. Sorry about the morbidity. Guess I need to increase my meds.  | ||
| S320002 |
Rocket did it twice!! I saw him!! The guy's a trouble maker and should be banned from the board!!  | ||
| Bomber |
Ain't it interesting how preachy we all get? I sure hope the poor soul who originally asked the question is getting SOME useful information . . . . please, no one ask about peg-weighting, ok? | ||
| Crusty |
Huh? Bed-wetting? What? | ||
| Mikej |
Preachy? Never. tongue in cheek often applied if not noted. Never use a hammer when a cookie will do. And never eat the doodoo. Bicyclists peg weight, motorcyclists hang off instead, or so I've been told. (insert any available emoticon here) | ||
| Bomber |
chuckle . . .. . preachy? damnbetcha (this thread is getting damn near as silly as the war is the only answer one . . .. .course, they never fully defined the question (grin) never stand if you can sit never sit if you can lie down don't step on something if you can step over it don't step over something if you can step around it and like that | ||
| Nevco1 |
Bomber...Too funny! Peg weighting was something I was holding back on. If you refer to my original post and comparison of riding to the French and Austrian skiing techniques the issue of peg weighting is addressed...well at least if you are an older downhill skier and know the techniques. In motorcycling, anyone that has mastered hanging off is properly peg weighting and may consider taking up downhill skiing and slalom racing. Of interest, like many activities, both the techniques and equipment have evolved to allow the masses to participate to some degree or another with a false sense of safety and security. ABS and linked brake systems are an example of how the Safetycrats are influencing riding techniques for the masses. Conclusion (hopefully erroneous): The easier you make an activity that is inherently complex in order to attract the masses, the higher the incidence rate becomes as folks can get in situations well over their skill level a whole lot easier. |
