| Author | Message | ||
     Easyflier |
I agree Ferris, this is a very interesting thread. The simplest definition I've found that applies to virtually anything with brakes is, "lightly applying the brakes to drive to the apex of a turn". Some explanations go further to describe how these actions shift weight and change sizes and shapes of contact patches. Properly utilized it will improve lap times, etc.. The discussion is just more complicated with motorcycles because we have totally seperate control of front and rear brakes. While the majority of situations would call for front braking I don't think it is a front brake exclusive technique. edited by easyflier on November 02, 2003 | ||
| Ferris |
...and change sizes and shapes of contact patches. Blake, HE said it not ME!!!  FB  | ||
| Tripper |
what Peter said. Touch the front brake and the forks dive, changing wheelbase and trail. Try keeping tabs on what line the bike is going to take next, cause it IS going to change. All of which reinforces that fact that you should never beleive what is written on the internet! | ||
| Jim_witt |
Goes to show what I know as well ... I'm with Peter on this one. -JW:>  | ||
| Nevco1 |
All of which reinforces that fact that you should never believe what is written on the internet! No kidding. I think next time I will keep my little secrets to myself. Then again, I am pleased to read the posts concerning all the individual techniques employed. Is living testimony that we are in tune with the way our respective bikes are set up and our physical differences. In 45 years of riding, I only had three accidents on the road and all were due to not paying attention (read: sightseeing). Am not the fastest guy around, but most of you would be hard pressed to keep up and those of you that are faster are welcomed to lead. If I can keep up, fine. If not, I will catch up sooner or later. Definitely not too old to learn new techniques, I just don't care to ride consistently over my ability. The old school concept of trail braking was to feather the rear brake up to the apex and begin to roll on throttle just before it. The intent was to maintain a calm suspension attitude to maximize control through a tight or unknown turn. The second benefit was it allowed you to slow down mid turn with or without the benefit of the front brake depending on surface conditions and still maintain control/lean angle via countersteering. The third benefit was if you went in way too hot you could low side the bike and live. That's pretty much the way us "Older than Dirt" types were taught. Now, for the sake of learning, let the new techniques be known so we all can benefit. | ||
| Easyflier |
Blake, HE said it not ME!!! Have I stated something that borders on heresy? | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
Damn it - I always believe everything I read on the internet! You guys have ruined it for me now  Seriously though, at age 36 I've learned it is better to actually admit you don't know everything! The only person that knows everything is my ex-wife's attorney... Mike M | ||
| Shotgun |
From David L Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling": "The wise rider sets cornering speed early, and gets off the brakes before leaning the bike into the curve. Adding a little rear brake while leaned over (trailing brake) is basically a technique for keeping the engine pullng smoother without increasing speed." Let's go to track school and learn more. | ||
| S320002 |
Hmmm...Touch the front brake and the forks dive, changing wheelbase and trail. Maybe this is why some test riders characterize the XB as heavy steering. Due to the steeper fork angle the XB wheelbase would change less. Trail braking would have less effect on steering. I guess if you rely on trail braking, rather than picking your line, you might think it was heavy steering. Easy, Not really, I guess you just had to be there. | ||
| Easyflier |
Greg, Wish I had been, sounds like it must have been interesting and entertaining. | ||
| Jim_witt |
...... touch the front brake and the forks dive, changing wheelbase and trail ...... What if my RR has Anti-Dive suspension? -JW:> | ||
| Nevco1 |
Never rode a bike with anti-dive suspension. Please, somebody please elaborate on the feel and technique in the tight turns. | ||
| Chainsaw |
I have only ever used the rear brake on the XB in corners. It's a relatively weak single piston caliper brake that wont lock up my rear tire even if I'm standing on it. (does not apply to temps 40 and below). Now I read I should be using the front brake? Egads! I've been cornering the wrong way on 2 bikes for the last 40,000 miles. I should read more on this. Carry on gentlemen! Very informative. | ||
| Dynarider |
The old school concept of trail braking was to feather the rear brake up to the apex and begin to roll on throttle just before it. Thats what I always thought, I even use it myself for track days. On Buells its easy because the rear brakes arent really strong. From David L Hough's "Proficient Motorcycling": "The wise rider sets cornering speed early, and gets off the brakes before leaning the bike into the curve. Adding a little rear brake while leaned over (trailing brake) is basically a technique for keeping the engine pullng smoother without increasing speed." We had this discussion before..maybe on the Borg..where someone asked what Trail braking was, I commented that it was rear brake application but several others thought it was front. Which one is is truly? Doesnt make sense to call using the front brake trail.??? I have only ever used the rear brake on the XB in corners. It's a relatively weak single piston caliper brake that wont lock up my rear tire even if I'm standing on it. (does not apply to temps 40 and below). Now I read I should be using the front brake? Egads! I've been cornering the wrong way on 2 bikes for the last 40,000 miles. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Chainsaw...Sorry to hear about your XB having a weak rear brake. Pleased to say my X1 doesn't and it takes a sense of feel to modulate it properly. The X1 is well designed in my never-so-humble opinion. Incidentally, if you think your brakes are weak, get a KLR650. You may develop a whole new appreciation for those on your XB. LOL | ||
| Dynarider |
Been looking up the definition of Trail braking & so far its the forum boards that are saying its front brake, & the racers say its rear brake. Compression braking does the same thing as using the rear brake so maybe with the Buells the riders are actually utilizing it & not even aware of it? | ||
| Tripper |
Maybe this is why some test riders characterize the XB as heavy steering. My experience with test driving 3 different XB's is that it is slow to initiate turn-in. Slower than my S1. None of them were set up for my massive weight, so I'm sure it could do better. There is something in the suspension or tires that makes the XB slow. Who has gone to aftermarket tires? Any improvement? Now before someone comes flaming in here, the XB does have more ultimate turning capability than probably any street bike. It's just slower than previous Buells to initiate the roll command. Kinda like a King Air autopilot. What if my RR has Anti-Dive suspension? the forks dive, changing wheelbase and trail. That dog did'nt hunt, at least Suzukis version of it did'nt. Maybe Erik got it right, I've never ridden one, but Josh will bring his down here to Atlanta for me, I am certain. It's a relatively weak single piston caliper brake that wont lock up my rear tire even if I'm standing on it. Internet knowledge (that's a joke, get it) says that Mr. Buell did that intentionally to keep us novices safe. The XB has earned points from the moto-mags for having a more powerfull rear brake. Anyone else notice an increase in low-sides seem to be reported by XB riders lately? | ||
| Ferris |
...I guess if you rely on trail braking, rather than picking your line... Greg, why can't you do BOTH? as an aside, i've done two Keith Code schools. i was a little taken aback when he told me that he NEVER uses the rear brake when he's riding. "Might as well take it off," he said, or something to that effect. i told him that i regularly used the rear brake in the technical stuff, to "settle" the bike into the suspension a bit, and asked him what he thought. "Sounds like you've got a suspension problem," he replied. FB | ||
| Dynarider |
And yet Freddie Spencer says to use it..go figure. | ||
| Buellnuts |
Trail Braking is Ferris behind me in a corner trying to slow down after a puckerfactor Latebrake!! Now true trail Braking is happening. Applying rear break while throttle is applied trying not to move a muscle untill danger is past keeping the Rat Bastard behind me!!!! Good dream! In The Rain Forest, Bob | ||
| Rocketman |
Trail braking is not a definition for the rear brake it is a reference to the PRESSURE you apply. If any of you saw todays Moto GP with excellent on-board camera shots (often) of Rossi in action you'd have seen him applying three - fingered pressure to his FRONT brake lever right up to the apex of the corner (several), TRAIL BRAKING. Incidentally ever wondered why left foot braking a car is the quickest way? Rocket  | ||
| Steveb |
I've done a sight of reading on the subject as I need to improve my skills greatly. This is a mind muddle of many sources I've read. If one trailbrakes: front brake is applied causing the front end to lower making the bike turn in more quickly due to the steeper fork angle. Power is rolled on and brake is feathered off to achieve a 50/50 weight distribution which is the most efficient way for a motorcycle to corner. Throttle must be used through a corner as much speed will be lost due to the cornering forces, and a motorcycle is designed to corner best while accelerating. Rear braking, which I always thought was trailbraking isn't in todays world trailbraking, but may also be used in some conditions along with trailbraking. A personal note, on my Gix 750, I had to rear brake when rolling on the throttle in a turn or the lurch from the abrupt power would nearly pull the front wheel off the ground. Not user friendly. | ||
| Ferris |
Trail Braking is Ferris behind me in a corner trying to slow down after a puckerfactor Latebrake!! me? BEHIND you?? sounds like a WET dream, cuzzin'! missed you at BattleTrax in Dublin. that is THE HARDEST i've ever worked to bring home some BX hardware. btw, i was trail braking so much on that course that i literally burnt a blister on the heel of my thumb when i accidentally brushed the rear disc while i was letting a little air out of my back tire between runs. more to the point, Mike M has stirred up a little mini-debate here with what at first glance seems like a pretty simple question. and in spite of a lot of thoughtful responses, i still don't think we're any closer to reaching a consensus on what trail braking really is! FB | ||
| Sarodude |
The best explanation I've ever seen on the benefits of trail braking (away from the motorcycle world) were best illustrated with a friction circle diagram and some simple sine / cosine type formulas. Blake - think you can run with that one? -Saro | ||
| Firemanjim |
I am with Ferris on this one.Trail braking always meant using the trailing(rear) brake into a turn just a might to settle suspension.And you are supposed to be rolling on the throttle to make the bike smoother through the turn,and the sooner you can roll on the throttle the faster you get out of the turn. If you are using the engine for braking through a turn you are not rolling on the throttle and getting a good drive out of corner. | ||
| Easyflier |
Don't know if this will help form a consensus or not but it answers the question from my perspective. Trail Braking is an often misused term by those who don't understand it. Note that it has nothing to do with what brake you're using. It just means that you keep braking as you go into the corner, trailing off the brake as you go deeper into the corner. The entire explanation can be found here http://www.trackdod.org/TrackDoD%20Novice%20Group%20Orientation.htm | ||
| Dynarider |
Easy, i was reading thru quite a few sites & all of the car drivers..indy, go karts, etc etc all talk about trail braking also. Like you pointed out its simply using the brakes thru the corner. Motorcycle riders dont appear to be able to agree on which it is..front..rear or both. I know i use the rear when at the track to just straighten the bike out a bit & calm the front end down while staying on the gas. | ||
| Easyflier |
What I've come away with from my searching is that it's all about using braking to transfer weight for maximum cornering, traction or stability. I think we get wrapped around the axle trying to describe one form or another as being THE one and only method of trail braking. | ||
| Ebear |
The only "Correct" method of trailbreaking is the one that works the best for you.I find it indispensible to my dirt biking if I want to set up my exit to best gain the line on the guy in front of me.In this case its all 'rear brake' and I continue dragging it while throttling up after Apex....settles the suspension...gives you the "choice" of altering your line.On the street I use both front and rear depending on the type of turn(IE:what follows the turn...nother turn , straightaway or chicane)But most of the time I will trail front to "throttle up".Mind you arent hard on the brakes just "trailing" them.I'm rarely brave enough to square off turns with the rear.Dragging the front to shorten up wheelbase will help turn in but if you bottom out suspension your putting youself in serious danger both on or off pavement.I've experimented in the dirt quite a bit and have had the bruises to remember by.Read Twist#1 and #2 and the Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles and you'll get a good Idea of motorcycle riding dynamics.Keith Code does good books just ignore the comments on the side......They just interrupt your thought process.  | ||
| Blake |
What easyflier said... with some additional thoughts... On the track as you come into a turn that requires significantly reduced speed you get hard on the brake at your braking marker, as you approach your turn-in marker you begin to let off gradually and as you approach the apex you then gradually get on the gas. For me anyway, the idea of trail braking is to keep going as fast as possible for as long as possible. It certainly ain't to lift the rear suspension, though applying the front brake does a pretty good job of that all on its own; nah, if need be, I use stiffer springs, more compression damping, or more preload to prevent bottoming the suspension. On the street I'm not trying to go as fast as possible for as long as possible. |
