| Author | Message | ||
     Milleniumx1 |
Forgive me, I've only owned Harleys for the past dozen years. Now I've bought this Buell, and starting to read the bike rags. What the hell is trailbraking? I'm sure I can't do it...I don't even know what it is. I keep reading reviews that say Buells are bad at it... Mike M | ||
| Blake |
Continuing to brake to the apex of a turn. Save it for the track or emergency situations on the street. | ||
| Daves |
What Blake said! Ride to the edge! Dave Iowa HD/Buell (Buell Cycle Center) | ||
| Buckinfubba |
exactly what blake said!! Brian Tilley hd/buell | ||
| Nevco1 |
Ditto on Blake's description, but I use it on both the X1 and the Wide Glide when going hot into a turn. Scrub speed with both, release front, lightly trail the rear, release at and jet out of the apex. If you are a snow skier, it is very similar to the French Availment (sp?)technique used in slalom racing. In fact, if you combine the French and Austrian techniques, you have just defined almost everything that a good road race school will teach you concerning body position, weight shifting, braking, accelerating, etc. Interesting parallel, but it does work on both the street and dirt. | ||
| 99buellx1 |
P.S. Trail braking=front brake through turn. Rear brake through turn can have some really bad results. Craig  | ||
| 99buellx1 |
P.S. again, Front brake through turn can also have bad results. Beware! | ||
| Spiderman |
Advice for Newbie Do all of your braking and down shifting before entering the turn. And buy a Keith Code book  | ||
| Ferris |
Continuing to brake to the apex of a turn. Save it for the track or emergency situations on the street. why? FB | ||
| Spiderman |
I think Dyna, in his own little way, is just stating that it is a dangerous move to be practicing on the street an should be saved for a track or advanced MSF course where there are less variables for disaster. | ||
| Ferris |
it's actually Blake's quote (sorry, i shoulda done a better job in the cut 'n paste process). why is trailbraking on the street "dangerous"? FB | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Contact Patch. when you are layed over in a turn, you have a smaller contact patch between the wheel and the road. So if you either: 1)squeeze the brake, 2)gas it. It is alot eiser to have the tire loose traction. And if you throw in dirt and imperfections on a public road, you have a bad situatioin. Therefore it is better left to a controlled environment like the track. Craig | ||
| Shotgun |
Trailbraking is continuing to apply light rear brake through a corner while applying throttle. The throttle gets you up on the suspension so the bike can best handle the corner and the light application of rear brake keeps your speed down. Practise on your parking lot course before carrying to the street. Watch good riders at Battletrax or follow them through the twisties and when you see that brake light carried well into or thru the turn, you can bet they are trailbraking. | ||
| Blake |
FB, In my opinion that kind of maneuver (trail braking) on public roads puts the rider very close to the 10/10ths category of riding with no margin of safety to spare. Having no margin of safety to spare on a public road with the plethora of unforseen obstacles and hazards seems like gambling to me. Sooner or later the 10/10ths rider will lose. When I'm riding the twisties, I try to not even use the brakes, just work the engine and keep it smooth. I rarely use more than half of my lane (keeping to the left half), I endeavor to never cross the center stripe. In my mind I pretend that crossing the center stripe, especially in a blind right hander, is certain death, something I seek to avoid encountering any time soon. I'm pretty sure that I have just as much fun as the squids racing each other on public roads. I guess there are probably some decreasing radius turns that would warrant trail braking on the street. I just think that maneuver is something to keep in reserve for those instances where a rider might come into a turn too hot. Now, on the track... muwahahah... it is one of my favorite passing techniques. | ||
| Ferris |
when you are layed over in a turn, you have a smaller contact patch between the wheel and the road. hmmm, not sure i agree on that one, Craig. (and can you just hear all groans out there as the subject of contact patch rears its ugly head once again?) in a corner you sure do have some different demands on the tire's contact patch, that's for sure. i will agree that if you stab the brakes (or goose the gas) when you're heeled hard a'port or starboard your odds of A Moment go up, but you (and just about everyone else so far) make it sound like if you even THINK about touching your brakes, or apply ANY throttle during a turn, you're gonna automatically wad yourself up into a messy little ball. just ain't so. ...Practice on your parking lot course before carrying to the street. THIS i agree with. In my opinion that kind of maneuver (trail braking) on public roads puts the rider very close to the 10/10ths category of riding... THIS i don't. this implies that the only way a person can trail brake into or thru a corner is if they are riding balls out, and we all know (don't we?) that you CAN trail brake even riding at sedate/moderate/legal speeds. c'mon now, i can't be the ONLY here who does this, right? not trying to be argumentative, just wanting to stimulate some thought and conversation.  riding at 10/10ths is riding at 10/10ths. applying some brake or throttle in a corner is not, necessarily, riding at 10/10ths (or even close to it). Mike M asked a great question, and so far the responses would tend to cause a new sportbike rider to be paranoid to the point of fear and/or panic about applying any brake (or throttle) thru a turn, when i bet most of us here who have responded actually employ these techniques more than perhaps they realize. and remember, as you respond, that Mike is an experienced rider, he is just new to sport bikes. FB | ||
| Dave |
Browse the Ducati site http://www.ducati.com/bikes/techcafe.jhtml at the Tech Cafe. Lots a terrific information about motorcycles in general. Helps me with all my questions.... DAve | ||
| Blake |
FB, I guess you have a pint... err point. But why trail brake if you don't need to scrub speed? I am assuming that one would only trail brake in order to reduce speed and prevent what would otherwise turn into a slide (or a pace that risks a slide) when leaned full over at the apex. Oh.. on that contact patch thing. Though it pains me to say this... your view is the accurate one. On flat turn with no camber, the contact patch might change shape, but not size. On a banked (positive camber) turn, the added force acting perpendicularly to the contact patch would cause the contact patch to enlarge. On an off camber turn, the reduced force perpendicular to the contact patch would cause the size of the contact patch to diminish. You really couldn't wait to reopen the dreaded contact patch discussion could you. Blake (still owes Ferris a camera) | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
Ferris nailed it - I have a little over 30K biking experience. All that was done on big Harleys, so I am familiar with brakes and throttle in turns. The only thing that freaks me out about the Buell (besides the wheelies!) is that it actually leans more than 26% without dragging its pegs or exhaust pipes. I just washed the bike, so I might go take it out and see if I can manage to unclinch my ass cheeks and try to lay it a bit harder into a turn. I've noticed that trying to ride this tuber Buell exactly like I did my Softail Springer produces some interesting turns!! Thanks all - I'll be careful ... grabbing keys now...C Ya Mike M edited by milleniumx1 on November 01, 2003 | ||
| Mbsween |
Ferris, I'm with you on this one, I do it all the time, old habits from the GPz I suppose. I use some front brake to adjust speed at the apex, which I know, should've been done on entry. However, I would agree that you should practice this at speeds that won't hurt you wearing the correct gear. And as far as the rear brake,unless you last name is Duhamel, Bostrom, Rossi or Roberts....,leave it alone in a corner. Its okay to use going in a straight line, but you can open a can of whoopass you didn't need in a corner. | ||
| Ferris |
...And as far as the rear brake,unless you last name is Duhamel, Bostrom, Rossi or Roberts....,leave it alone in a corner. Matt, in spite of your initial words of concurrence, i'm beginning to feel a little lonely in all of this. i trail brake a LOT when i ride (and in spite of what may be said in some circles, i ride pretty conservatively most of the time, especially now since AARP has me in their sights...), and i usually trail the REAR brake. that is, when i'm on my Buell. my VFR's linked brakes requires that i trail BOTH ends, whether i want to or not. i'm really confused about the perception that using the front brake, or the rear brake, or BOTH brakes, while navigating a corner is taboo. who says that the only way to "correctly" navigate a corner is to be going EXACTLY the speed you want to be going BEFORE you enter the corner? is this the ONLY way? is this the BEST way? FB | ||
| Easyflier |
I tend to think that trail braking can include just the front, rear or both brakes. Since a motorcycle has control of each end independently I think it adds to the confusion. An internet search locates quite a few references to trail braking in autos where they have no independent control of the front and rear brakes. I'm trying to develop my skills on a sport bike, which is new to me also. Hopefully I can get over my aversion to leaning hard in fast curves with a couple track days next year. | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
Okay, now I'm hooked! I found a couple of awesome twisty roads tonight - 50 miles of seeing what the Buell would do. Well more seeing what I could do - I'm positive this bike is capable of much more than I am! I gotta say, braking in the corners on the Buell felt better than it ever did on the big Harleys. I'm no sport riding expert, but I tried it and could definitely see the bike was pretty stable. It did want to stand up a bit if you didn't keep your weight shifted while braking. I was grinning like an idiot! At least until my hands got so cold I couldn't hardly pull the clutch in! Thank God for the torque - less shifting... I was surprised how great this bike felt in the twisties, even with a sport bike amateur like me. It was a blast...well, you know what I mean  Mike M | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I hate to say this but I normally can be on the gas in the apex of a turn, on my S1 anyway!!!! Its sooooooooooooooooooo much fun, I remember a turn going through Detroit this summer with Spidey behind me and Darthane in front and was quite fun. Can't wait till next year. | ||
| Newfie_buell |
I don't know if anyone agrees here but the ONLY dumb question is the one that is not asked!!! | ||
| Shotgun |
The name of the manouver is "trailbraking" not frontbraking. You get on the throttle thru the turn to keep your suspension up. If you were to frontbrake thru a turn, your suspension would be compressed, the worst possible attitude in a tight turn. It leaves you no margin of error for that bump or gravel or wet leaves or whatever. If you are up on the suspension, however, you can handle all of that. They teach em to slow (before the turn), look (look thru the turn towards your exit), lean, and roll (roll on the throttle), not slow, look, lean, and brake. | ||
| Milleniumx1 |
I was able to use the throttle coming out of the apex. I was hesitant at first because of the torque, and my inexperience leaned into corners. Other than a couple of times choosing the wrong turn point, everything was pretty predictable. I also like that the front binders can be managed with just one finger - or two if you needed to stop right NOW! I might need to play with the adjustments a bit. It did seem pretty harsh on a few mid-corner bumps. I remember my softail would kill your butt if you hit a hole/bump in a corner. This Buell is a workout on my wrists.... Mike M | ||
| Stubby |
My understanding of trail braking is: According to Keith Code in his Twist of the Wrist 2 tome, one should do one's braking before the quick flick into the corner. One should only have to make his steering maneuver one time. After assuming proper lean and steering, one should roll on the throttle. How much or how little depends on the turn. But the throttle should be gently rolling on. This has the effect of shifting the weight bias to the rear tire which has the greatest contact patch as compared to the front, yielding greater stability in the turn, and has the added effect of lightening the suspension some. The stability in cornering when using this technique is pretty awesome. An added aspect of cornering on a m/c is that when leaned over and all things remaining the same, the bike tends to pick up about 500 rpm. Sometimes when rolling on the throttle the rear gets a little squirmy, or slides some. Not to worry, this has the tendency to square off the corner some, and all one has to do is pick the bike up and rpm and torque and all that will drop, and the tire will regain "grip". Just don't chop the throttle in a circumstance like this, or a highside might result. Trail braking works for me best in a situation where under acceleration the front end is a little too light, not wheely or anything, but just a wee tad of front brake settles the front end. Same on an uphill corner like I encounter in the Colorado mountains near my home. Quite different on a downhill corner. Now I'm not a 100%'er ever on streets and roadways, I ride to about 70%. I can still have a whole lot of fun without endangering myself. Trail braking ought not to be used in order to change lines, but to even out the suspension in a corner. Braking as such ought to be accomplished before the steering input, if at all possible. my $.02 worth. Stubb | ||
| Rocketman |
Trail braking is done on the front brake. No matter what hocus - pocus you think is going on the purpose of trail braking is to negotiate the corner as fast as possible. Rocket  | ||
| Ferris |
this has gotten very interesting! >What the hell is trailbraking? >Continuing to brake to the apex of a turn. Save it for the track or emergency situations on the street. >What Blake said! >exactly what blake said!! >Ditto on Blake's description... >And as far as the rear brake,unless you last name is Duhamel, Bostrom, Rossi or Roberts....,leave it alone in a corner. >The name of the manouver is "trailbraking" not frontbraking. >Trail braking is done on the front brake. >Rear brake through turn can have some really bad results. >Front brake through turn can also have bad results. Beware! >Advice for Newbie Do all of your braking and down shifting before entering the turn. >Trailbraking is continuing to apply light rear brake through a corner while applying throttle. >In my opinion that kind of maneuver (trail braking) on public roads puts the rider very close to the 10/10ths category of riding. >I am assuming that one would only trail brake in order to reduce speed and prevent what would otherwise turn into a slide >I tend to think that trail braking can include just the front, rear or both brakes. >According to Keith Code in his Twist of the Wrist 2 tome, one should do one's braking before the quick flick into the corner. >Trail braking is done on the front brake. No matter what hocus - pocus you think is going on the purpose of trail braking is to negotiate the corner as fast as possible. ----------------------------------------------------------- hocus pocus, Rocket? nah, there's no smoke and mirrors here, just an honest question and a whole bunch of honest answers. which one of us is "right"? yeah, difficult question. ok, maybe this question is easier: which one of us is "wrong"? Mike asked a great question, one that maybe a lot of guys/gals wouldn't ask, because who among us wants to admit we don't know it all. and he has gotten a lot of great answers. some of those answers were, i think, "knee jerk" ( "Yeah, what HE said!" ), but they were still from the heart. the implication, at first, was that using ANY brakes during a corner was instant death. read the initial replies above and see if you don't agree. but, enough opinion ensued for something a little closer to the truth to emerge, which is the beauty of a forum like this. Mike, you're doing everything right here. you asked an honest question, absorbed the info that came back at you, and then went out in a controlled environment and put our theories to the test. i'm not trying to be patronizing, but that level of maturity is cool to see. now then...can you just imagine if a bunch of BADWEB principals ever got together to put on a track day? "Dude, you're supposed to do it THIS way!" "Nah, man, you're supposed to do it THIS way!!!" "WTF!!! You're both wrong, THIS is how you do it..." FB (ps: private lessons available, reasonable rates, call BR-549...) | ||
| Peter |
And I always thought I meant using your rear brake lightly to tighten up a curve when you've gone in to it too hard. |
