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M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:47 am: | 
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Well, I tend to agree that "trail braking" can indeed be used on the street... Just not in the sense that it is generally meant. It's ok to drag the brake a tiny bit into a corner methinks. The problem that most people seem to be talking about here is that it IS dangerous. it IS. Be careful. The best thing to do is slow to the proper entry speed and then get on the throttle as soon and smooth as possible. Motorcycles handle better this way (so do cars BTW). It's faster to not trailbrake around a "standard" shaped corner on four wheels. The reason being that you can rotate faster w/o the brakes applied. Granted, you do want to THRESHOLD brake up until just after you start to turn the wheel. Think of the lean angle as an indicator as to how much brake you should be using and assume that at the maximum lean angle you will attain in the corner is the point at which you should not be on the brakes. This will help you use closest to 100% of your circle (the traction one...) for the longest amount of time. As you start to change velocity (as I'm sure we all know) you use part of your traction budget... This means you have less for brakes. Of course, you don't wan't to just jump off the brakes (keep in mind that smooth=fast/!SAFE!) so you roll off the brakes as you initiate the lean. In a perfect world (ON A RACETRACK) you would use at all times 100% of your traction budget. As you can tell, trail braking is used in that "fuzzy" time between using 100% for braking and using 100% for turning. In either case, the operative term here is 100%...... That's BAD on the road.
Again, I'm not saying I think you'll die if you touch the brakes while leaned on the road. You might not. I'm just saying that unless you are near 100% you aren't "trail-braking" as such. You're just dragging the brakes.
I am sitting here trying to think of a good/safe way/reason to trail brake on the road... ... ... The only one I can think is when you come into a corner too hot. The thing is that in my experience I have never actually come into a corner too hot on a sled... Not to say I'm perfect, just that I ride conservatively. Maybe I'll live a while. Here's to hoping eh?
I have come into a corner too hot in my truck (92 Sonoma GT #482 of 806) and I solved that little problem by getting on the brakes to the threshold and then got on the gas (with the brake still applied but releasing) as I turned in to kick the ass out and drifted around the corner. I won't do that again. My passenger just about soiled himself. As a side note... I came around a cloverleaf in Minneapolis/St. Paul (Hwy 100N to Hwy55W if you know it) one time in my Mustang (72 Mach, 351C2V) and drove around it power on over steer with the rear out about 4'. About half way around the radio went static (original AM/FM) so I reached down to adjust it and the same friend was with me  . He trusts my driving more than I do now . |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:55 am: |
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ah, semantics and rhetoric . . .. good fun, if confusing to some (smile)
havn't skied in longer than I care to mention, as my aftermarket modified knees are held together with good intentions, but the phsyics certainly sound similar
I agree with Nevco . . .the "safer" an activity is made, the more injuries will result . .. the "safety" additions simply serve, far too often (but not always) to mask a lack of skill on the part of the operator . .. .
SUVs and 4WD vehicles are a good example . .. I chcuckle the first bad snowstorm when I see multiple vehicles off the side of the road in a ditch . . .. the drivers haing either:
1. not figured out that 4WD doesn't give one a get outa jail free card in terms of cornering and accelerating (although it DOES help in slick conditions), or,
2. havn't figured out that while not all 4 wheeled vehicles have 4WD, they ALL got 4 wheeled brakes, and your BMW SUV ain't gonna stop any quicker in the snow/ice than a Camry . . . . |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:25 pm: |
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M1...Agree with your assessment of trail braking. On the street, proper entry speed is the basic skill and trail braking would be considered an advanced skill.
My only point is that it is kind of hard to know what the proper entry speed is even on familiar roads due to ever changing conditions and that trail braking adds a margin of safety and assists in riding quicker, smoother and safer.
Really like your term "Threshold Braking." It concisely defines the risk factor in street vs track techniques. In my mind, the track is a much safer riding environment. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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Agreed on the track being much safer... There's runoff area, sand, hay bales, and EMT'S!!! .
As far as threshold braking... In the minds of many racers I have talked to (many world class WITH paid rides) they generally tend to look at trail braking as PART of threshold braking, just that it's the last part, where you are entering the turn... Being the purist that I am, I would prefer to invent a term for "dragging the brake" which is what you really should be doing on the street ONLY WHEN NEEDED. The reason being is that if you are on the street, you shouldn't be getting yourself into a situation where you will NEED trail braking. Trail braking isn't something that's ever NEEDED. It's something that is used to make you go faster where you otherwise wouldn't be able to. Not because the bike can't, but because you are at the limits of the bike and you need to modify them a little to shave that 4/100ths of a second so as to be able to pass going into the next corner. Don't do this on the street (IMO), you may end up dead, there's ROCKS out there.... BIG ROCKS!
That being said though, there is indeed use for slowing down in turn entry or center... Personally though, instead of slowing, I think the better option is to lean over more, crack the throttle a little and try to make it inside/outside whatever made you decide that "trail braking" was the best choice. That's why you don't ride at 100% because there may be an unforseen "thing" that causes you to NEED 100%. If you are already there... well... I'll see you on the other side I guess. |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 02:45 pm: |
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they generally tend to look at trail braking as PART of threshold braking
M1...my 4 wheel techniques are about as old as my 2 wheeled ones. In this instance, would toe'n'heel braking/down shifting be considered pre-entry braking and just a slight left foot pressure on the brake trail braking? |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:55 pm: |
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Yes, but IMO and the O of many racers, trail braking is something that is used near the limit. It's subtly different from just needing to slow down. I guess it's the difference between using the brakes to slow down vs. using the brakes to go faster.
I said earlier that "dragging the brake" is a "different" thing but very similar. I suppose that's mostly the race fan in me saying that. You trail the brake going into a corner... Yeah, I guess that's trail braking, just not used for it's intended purpose and that would be considered a very general statement. I guess the main thing as it relates to bikes is that it's dangerous to use the brakes in a corner. If you are entering a corner too hot then by all means, use everything you know how for the sake of self preservation, but before you go into a corner in the first place, make sure you aren't over cooking it. Also, There are really two ways to trail brake... You can use the clutch too. Either way... BE CAREFUL! Study the dynamics of a highside. Most who have survived one or watched one will tell you that it's best to just lay the bike down once the rear is far enough out that your steering lock is maxed.
The other thing is that I think that a good 99% of the people on this board can't even ride to the edge (Including me, but I can drive to it) so when you get into a situation where you think you are over it, you most likely can ask the bike for a little more even if it's more than you've asked before. This has the chance of putting you over THE limit, or expanding YOUR limit. Either way, I personally think this should only happen on a track. I think that's safer than using the brakes to save yourself in a corner on the street. If you find yourself NEEDING to ask for more than you ever have, I think it's time to pull off, smoke a cigarette, think about your loved ones and slow down.
One may throw out the argument that you could be "surprised" into a situation where you need to all of a sudden ask for more than you wanted to, but in that case I say you should have been riding enough below your limit that it doesn't really matter what gets thrown at you, you still won't be over your limit. Shit happens though. |
Easyflier
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:06 pm: |
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I think "trail braking" is a technique, like a subset, of the maneuver that people are trying to describe on the race track for executing a fast turn.
When a rider on the street enters a corner a little hot and drags the brakes(s) that is trail braking. When a racer is setting himself up for a super duper high speed turn he uses trail braking. Trail braking is just one of a myriad of activities that are happening in that short span of time.
Maybe that's where the confusion lies, in the fact that the term has been co-opted and no longer has the meaning that it had when people like Freddy Spencer were using/explaining it.
Trail braking used by racers to execute a corner faster, assuming that they do everything else right.
Trail braking used by street riders to regain some control and successfully extricate them from a potentially dangerous situation.
Yes, some street riders use race techniques and some racers probably use some street riding techniques.
I'm putting on the nomex so flame away.  |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:57 pm: |
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Well, it's not a flame, but I prefer to call dragging the brakes dragging the brakes because you are using it to go slow. I prefer to call trail braking trail braking because you are using it to go fast. They are reasonably similar in execution, but the end result is indeed different. I see your point though. I think both are equally important, but mastery IMO needs to happen ON the track for use off the track in a hairy situation. |
Easyflier
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:12 pm: |
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I think we would be a lot closer to a consensus if the process was better documented and backed up with a variety of sources.
My feeling is that just because racers call the maneuver trail braking doesn't necessarily make it so.
I'm open to hearing what other people come up with on the topic if they've not grown tired of it. |
Easyflier
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:37 pm: |
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Ok, I stand corrected. This is about the best description that I have found. As long as we all agree that trail braking can encompass the use of both, or either brake then this settles it for me.
Trail braking
While the general rule for road driving involves separating braking and cornering there is a notable exception called trail braking. Trail braking is originally a racing drivers' technique and describes continuing to brake as your turn into a bend. When applied with suitable skill this method confers some significant advantages:
Braking can be left later, which allows for more fine tuning of cornering speed. In particular you have seen much more of the bend before you have finished adjusting speed.
When your vision is shortest if an obstruction appears your foot is already on the brake pedal saving 0.2 seconds
Forwards weight transfer from braking enhances front tyre grip at the turn in point.
Adjustment of the braking force can be used to control the relative proportions of front grip and rear grip, and hence the attitude of the car.
If you are confident and competent to brake in the early stages of a bend you have better options if the corner has been misjudged. In other words, trail braking is excellent for disaster recovery.
In practice, trail braking works like this: You brake on the approach to a bend in the normal way. Instead of releasing the brake before you turn in, you continue to brake during the turn in phase, and perhaps all the way to the apex. As you travel through the bend you gradually blend out the braking and smoothly transition to the throttle. Typically you might well be back on the throttle after perhaps 1/3rd of the bend.
Trail braking is a difficult and subtle technique. It is dangerous to try to learn it on the public road. If you brake too hard or at the wrong time, trail braking can (and does!) easily cause a spin. The only way to learn trail braking is under instruction on a circuit or on a proving ground.
http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html
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Easyflier
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:48 pm: |
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One more thing, I do think that this can be applied on the street in some form or fashion and can be done safely if you're not already on the edge of the envelope. IOW, while it is an excellent technique on the track it can also be used on the street while driving safely and sensibly. Just means you shouldn't be trying it at 100 mph in a 30 mph corner or under conditions that would be dangerous even without trail braking, like debris on the roadway for one example.
I have done it myself, not to get more speed in a corner but merely to regain my composure when hitting a curve that puts me beyond my comfort level. |
M1combat
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:02 pm: |
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I agree that trail braking can be done with either brake or the clutch or all three...
"In other words, trail braking is excellent for disaster recovery."
unless... You are already spinning, trail braking is bad after a spin has started , you need to get on the gas and get some weight back to the rear. At best, this will only stop the rear from sliding, most of the time you will end up in a 4-wheel slide (keeping in mind I mostly only have experience on 4 wheels in a high tech simulation) and at worst you used too much throttle and you will still spin. Practice that throttle control . |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:18 pm: |
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Terms like "trail braking" and like "truth" really have to be defined learnt on an individual basis.
Like anything if you learn it wrong it will remain wrong until you learn it right. Define anything how you like but it doesn't change the definition of what it really is.
Is trail braking on the road dangerous? Like any skill involved in riding two wheels - only if the operator loses control.
A good example of trail braking on the road is coming down a steep twisty road - like say a mountain road with lots of hairpin corners - descending slowly. You've probably all trail braked in this scenario and felt the effect of counter steering too - and lived to tell the tale.
Rocket 
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Nevco1
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:39 pm: |
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A good example of trail braking on the road is coming down a steep twisty road - like say a mountain road with lots of hairpin corners - descending slowly. You've probably all trail braked in this scenario and felt the effect of counter steering too - and lived to tell the tale.
Yep, did that thousands of times with exception to the slow part. Slow needs further definition in this case.
However, more important to riding skill is trail braking while riding back up the switchbacks and on the gas. This is when your front end is prone to unweight easily and wash out.
Using both scenario's, on the downhill run, I would trail brake with both front and rear brakes. On the uphill run, I would trail brake with the rear to keep the front end down without washing out. Furthermore, use counter steering in both cases and focus on where you want to go.
Just a tale from an old living guy that only gets his X1's front wheel off the ground when crossed up in an uphill switchback (or in uphill compression dips) compliments of the torque. LOL
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:05 pm: |
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Slow needs further definition in this case.
Aw c'mon no it doesn't.
Anyone reading that statement and understanding it knows exactly how SLOW because they'd have felt the counter steer whilst trail braking.
I mentioned the above scenario because previously I'd used the racing environment to explain trail braking, so in an effort to enlighten those on Badweb that feel they don't know or haven't trail braked - explaining riding down that hill might just have awakened something they didn't realize had occurred - they'd trail braked and counter steered and now they remember doing it!
For the record anytime you trail brake the result will always be to negotiate the circumstance quicker than if you hadn't trail braked - that doesn't mean you have to be on the limit UNLESS you're racing of course - the best example here.
If anyone's still unclear what trail braking is, where and when to use it, or whether it's safe or not to use in the urban jungle, don't bug me - call Keith Code on 08567 - LEARN - TO - FUCKING - RIDE
Trail braking uphill? Are you serious? Fart and give us a clue.
I'm done now.
Rocket
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Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
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somehow I doubt that (grin) |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 10:43 am: |
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Hey Rocket...Not trying to bust your stones. In retrospect, in your scenario, even coasting down the mountain would require braking of some type. |
Cj_xb
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 10:58 am: |
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Not to show my ignorance, but I didn't understand a word Rocket said, didn't sound very friendly though !!!
Course you guys know I'm just a trouble maker !!! LOL
CJ  |
M1combat
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 11:14 am: |
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Trouble maker ...
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Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 11:56 am: |
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Rocket is deep into 18th Century English thought, and still trying to share civilization with the rest of the world (grin) |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 11:56 am: |
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Rocket made perfect sense...at least to me, but then y'all know I am anal retentive anyway.
Track is a relatively controlled environment, whereas the street (even very familiar roads) has so many uncontrollable variables that a some precautionary measures are in order.
I like to ride in a spirited manner but not at a race pace on the street. Thus I employ trail braking to assist me to make corrections in the turns to avoid the Big Whoops.
Have not been on a track in a few years and don't plan on it in the foreseeable future. In essence, my Bullet Proof days are over. However, I did learn a lot of really sound riding techniques that have saved my butt repeatedly and am thankful for the experience.
Rocket and others that are proponents of Track Days and Riding Schools are absolutely correct. In the event, you do not have the inclination for either, MSF or other street oriented schools as well as reading books like David Hough's and threads like this will either add to your skills or give you conviction that you have been doing it right all along.
Just be careful in applying any techniques that you read about. The written word can be misinterpreted easily and lead to undesirable results. |
Nevco1
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 11:58 am: |
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Bomber...Gee, thanks. 18th Century English and I understood it. Oy Vey, I wonder what I was in my former life!!! |
Bomber
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 12:17 pm: |
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it's Rocket's Burden to splain things to us . . . and ours, of course, to acept enlightenment
as for former lives, ehem, that is best left unexamined, in my experience |
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