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Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 11:47 am: | 
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If you've done lacquer treatments on your high mileage Buell with no problems then more power to you. There isn't such a thing as "modern lacquer thinners". Most of them today are recycled and contain chlorinated solvents. If you worked around a shop very long you would have met someone who mistakenly left thinner in their aluminum cup for several days only to find pitting in the cup and the fluid passages. If it were my bike, lacquer thinner is the LAST thing I'd run in my motor. But hey, what would I know? I've only been doing this all my life.
thanks, Jim- I've been doing this all my life, too- and "modern lacquer thinners" are easily obtained.
You can argue all you like, but:
In MY engine, with approx. 220,000 miles, I've had no issues as a result of this.
It's also a protocol we used at BMW for decades.
what kind of mileage are you putting on your no-solvent-cleaned engined Buell?
 } |
Jb2
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 12:37 pm: |
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Like I said Tramp...
If you've done lacquer treatments on your high mileage Buell with no problems then more power to you.
Further I was not arguing. I only stated that I wouldn't put it in my bike and I would not recommend anyone else doing so.
I currently own a Vic and haven't owned a Buell for several years. I also never had any problems that would have required a snake-oil treatment fix.
Now go back in the corner and play with your wikipedia before some poor fella takes your advice and runs lacquer thinner in his scooter. LOL!!! |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 12:42 pm: |
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Winseheimer..... |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 01:01 pm: |
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Tramp I will check with the local FBO about no lead AV-Gas, and its properties.
(this intregues me) 100 octain [ if r/m ]
I have never seen it but I quit flying about 14 years ago.
Like JB2 said if it works for you more power to you,
the original question was posed by the owner of an 03 and that DOES have an o2 sensor that the common 100 "BLUE" will ruin.
hence my response
220k miles on the "original engine" thats pretty good, I assume that you have not done a top end or clutch or gear box, just changed the oil(s)
My other assertion - question about solvents and rubbers stands, There are volumes about what rubber compounds can be used with what chemicals miss it and you are replacing seals, a couple of ounces in maybe 96 0zs of oil is enough under the wrong condition to shorten the life of say the crank seal or the valve guide seals
I have heard of this before and I believe products that used to be avaiable for automotive use may have contained these solvents,
like some of the others I would not do it to my bike.
After changing the crank seal at 20K miles with it being brittle I dont think that solvents would help that issue.
they might help remove varnish from the lifters, interesting to ponder for sure. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 01:24 pm: |
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Solvents and seals are funny- there some AT fluids that are great for flushing engines, and some that eat certain rubbers alive.
The mid-80s MB E class cars had an issue with neoprene seals shrinking, here in North America, due to our fuel additives' breakdown compnents (resultant of combustion and carbonization) seeping into the crankcase lubes.
zany stuff.
The 1970s BMW R-series tanks shed their red-lead layer immediately, upon addition of MTBE-laced fuel, immediately clogging the Bings.
By now, most have been sorted out.
Still again, some solvents are actually sold as seal conditioners, for their powers of swelling rubber seals....I've never jumped on board with this idea, although I've known AT specialists who actually swear by some of these.
As to my own mill, I haven't even done the rocker gaskets, so I ride in a continual total-loss EPA superfund state, which I fantasize to be mitigated by the endangered species work I do, near-fulltime.
Life's all give-and-take, right?
I don't like snake-oil fixes, either- however, after having had overwhelming success with 'siloo' "hydra-valve-kleen", and then inspecting said product's MSDS, I realize that several modern solvents are very safe for use with our aluminum mills.
Again- BMW recommends said use for hydraulic valves, as well...and they're aluminum crazy.
i cited what works for me, if someone doesn't want to try it,and would rather cast aspersions on a BMW tech II rated wrench, that's fine w/me.
Sometimes mockery is a poor shortcut to learning and understanding |
Dfishman
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 08:22 pm: |
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Marvel Mystery Oil will do the same thing.Drain Oil & add new oil with about one third Mystery Oil.Run engine till the ticking stops.Change oil & filter. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 09:33 pm: |
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yep- marvel
's great stuff.
Note, again, that in my posts, i did mention using "a few ounces" in your existing oilbath, only until the noise clears (usually within 5 minutes of run-time)
this is a FAR cry from filling an aluminum cup with ONLY solvent and leaving it in overnight. |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2008 - 10:54 pm: |
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the chlorinated solvents that are mentioned by JB2 will also play hell with highly finished carbon steel surfaces under the right [ Wrong ] conditions damage to the rod or crank main bearings would not be a good thing either.
Mystery oil sounds like a better option for that. BUT it plays hell with some Rubbers Nitrile, Neoprene are 2 I can think of.
As to my own mill, I haven't even done the rocker gaskets, so I ride in a continual total-loss EPA superfund state,
I understand why seals would not be an issue 
YMMV . |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 05:31 am: |
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Qldog- again:
These are solvents approved by BMW for such protocol.
maybe you know more than they do?
Note, again, the tiny amounts I suggest.
Rocker gaskets, as anyone who's ever put more than 60K on their tuber, give way soon enough....this has nothing to do with added solvents |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 08:38 am: |
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Tramp,
Hey I really enjoyed the e-mail I found on my g-mail account this morning. Do you always make it a habit to take your disagreements off-line? I almost published your diatribe but felt it wouldn't benefit our little debate here on the BWB.
To answer your question... No I don't have a problem with you, only your recommendations for voodoo mechanics.
Put your money where your mouth is. Post the BMW service bulletin or protocol that recommends lacquer thinner as an acceptable flush for their motorcycles. Hell post your certificates that show your are/were a certified BMW tech. While you're at it, get someone from Buell or Harley to say your recommendation is valid/acceptable.
I spent 45 minutes online last night finding posted documents that support my position. When I have time this weekend I'll post the links. Almost everything posted on the net related to oil flushing calls it a "snake oil treatment" because todays motor oils are so good at preventing deposits and buildup. Only BMW motorcars has a recommended flush procedure but it does not include thinner.
My point is simple... I believe your recommendation flies in the face of posted data. I am however open-minded enough to accept a different finding if you can back it up.
You're welcome to contact me by e-mail anytime you want regarding anything related to motorcycling but if you want to take a disagreement off-line to my personal e-mail account, quit wasting your time. Just show up here if you've got a problem with something I've posted. We'll work it out. 
JB2
(Message edited by jb2 on July 25, 2008) |
Paint_shaker
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 09:11 am: |
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One of the keys to painting is to apply the paint in multiple light coats, allowing for enough flash time between coats. Flash time depends on weather conditions. Also, when sanding for finishing purposes I would NOT use anything less than 1000 grit sand paper or you will be working that much harder.
But what do I know, in my previous career I worked as a painter in an auto body shop...... |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 09:14 am: |
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Wow, hey Tramp,
First you send a nasty e-mail to my home and now you're dragging our disagreement to other threads? Sounds like you have a problem with me? You're always the first to post you think someone has a problem. Maybe you should spend more time working on your internet social skills. They suck.
JB2 |
Oldog
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 10:34 am: |
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These are solvents approved by BMW for such protocol
 Are we talking about BMW's Professor Violinnus?
so you understand me use what you wish suggest what you wish, the other members are free to heed or disreguard your or my advice,
My professional credentials
Graduate DCC atl ga Deans list METALURGY diemaking and machine tool operations.
machinist 9 years for 2 different shops after graduation from DCC with honors.
(poverty sucks)
I have welding and machining skills,( I'm no master at it)
My former occupation was comission and service of wood preservation plants where I had to deal with a variety of chemicals
some where mild some were quite dangerous
all had materials that they are compatible with.
I have worked as a millwrite, machinist, mechanic, Pipe fitter, welder and helper.
and been resopncible for the start up and operation of million dollar projects.
I am currently employed as an electrical engineer / controls designer when I finish this responce I will return to the shop to help trouble shoot the shops over head crane.
Do I know more than the engineers at BMW or Buell not likely,
Heres my take because its ok to put paint thinner in the motor oil of a Beemer does not mean that its automaticaly ok to do so on a Buell
thats all, don't take my comments as in your face they are not intended that way
I learn some thing new every day
I did not know that cheap paint thinners had JUNK solvents in them thanks JB2
BTW if you are getting unleaded avgas its probably "mo-gas" [automobile gasoline] most light planes not used for instruction can get an STC for this it helps to save money
LATER.} |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 11:10 am: |
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Jim-
First, I asked you, offline, what your problem is, as on-forum is not the appropriate venue.
Off-forum is.
Second: i did NOT send a nasty-gram to your home, i sent you a PM, again, as a better way to take an issue offline.
Third- you're asking me to post a BMW motorcycle protocol that suggests flushing, and then you go on to state that you DID find mention of BMW automotive group recommendations for flushing. you did NOT, however, mention the solvent so-suggested.
you seem to refute, then back up, my statement in one post. thank you for that.
fourth:
Sure, oil additives are "snake oil" for situations where modern lubes are doing their job.
When these lubes fail, and lifters become sludged or seized due to particulate invasion, extremely low-level solvents do perform the task of removing the offending sludge/particulate.
again, read my posts- i recommend adding 'a few ounces" in cases where lifter seizure has already occurred....
Followed by immediate flushing, and re-flushing, w/filter change.
If you'd like to analogize that to leaving old paint thinner in an aluminum cup, overnight, then I think i see where your skills of misreading , followed by gross exaggeration, come into play.
As far as my own cert.s, you won't find me posting anything with a identifying data on it.
This activity would represent imprudent use of the internet.
If you prefer to call me a liar, that's fine with me.
I posted helpful, sincere advice which I gleaned from BMW service training, which has served me exceptionally well with regard to my own lifter-seizure episodes.
I apologize for your offense at having someone suggest a protocol that doesn't run parallel to your own.
I guess we should all do it your way, or no way at all. |
Jb2
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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Tramp,
BMW did not state their recommended solvent. They only stated that they only recommended it be done by a dealer and only as a LAST alternative before a major teardown. Mind you this is an automotive recommendation, NOT motorcycle.
I'm not calling you a liar. I'm just saying that you can't back up what you have proposed to a Buell rider. You can't do it from BMW nor Buell or Harley. If you could you would post it.
My paintgun analogy was only to demonstrate that readily available paint thinners(i.e. from WalMart, Lowe's, Home Depot) and wash thinners that are available at automotive paint stores have been known to contain chlorinated solvents. Mostly because of the junk or recycled percentages contained in wash grade offerings. Chlorinated solvents have reactive qualities with aluminum. There is posted data on the net that confirms this. If the protocol you speak of is indeed true then I would suggest you should have prefaced your recommendation to use lacquer thinner that was a pure blend from virgin solvents.
Even at that, lacquer thinner is a penetrating or "hot" solvent. HD engine cases are assembled with silicon sealer on the halves. Lacquer thinner is an excellent solvent for breaking the bond between aluminum and silicone. Not sure I'd want to flush out an assembled motor with a hot solvent even if it was pure.
You do what you want. I have no reason to believe that you weren't telling the truth when you say you've done it to your Buell on a regular basis. But, I doubt that you can back your claim with documentation. If you could you would post it.
Another thing I am a little befuddled over is you are a well known and published environmentalist yet you propose such a wasteful procedure. Your recommendation would have the guy burning 2 or 3 oil changes plus adding 5 ounces of lacquer thinner to contaminate the mix. (Remember what VOC's are?) You've slammed the motel chains for their green initiatives and developers for their McMansions yet you seem to be just as wasteful on a personal level. What I am missing here?
JB2 |
Tramp
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2008 - 03:58 pm: |
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I'm not an environmentalist, despite any media paint-jobs.
I'm a field rare & endangered species biologist, which is not always the same thing.
A biologist will tell you when, say, a particular species of salamander is trending toward parthinogenesis...
An environmentalist will blame it on global warming.
Jim- can you please point me to where,in any of my posts, I stated that BMW MOTORCYCLE service protocol indicated useage of flushing solvents for lifter seizure?
i believe you'll note I mentioned only BMW, which you, yourself, confirmed.
It would seem that you're asking me to back up your claim, at this point.
BMW service protocol indicates the use of solvents for seized lifters.
This was especially popular with the mid-80s ETA engines, that is, those whose designations ended in "E" (318E, 325E, etc.)
The ETAs were plagued with lifter issues, and BMW offered bulletins recommending the use of various brands of 'valve cleaner' (comprised of various solvents, typically naptha and MEK) as quick, warm-up run-throughs, to be immediately drained out (as per my consistent advice in this thread).
At this point, you're arguing with yourself.
A Speaking of backing claims with documentation:
would you please back your claim of " There isn't such a thing as "modern lacquer thinners". Most of them today are recycled and contain chlorinated solvents. "
with published data? I'd like to see data stating that (and I quote you) "there isn't such a thing as modern lacquer thinners"
I'd also like to see published data backing up your claim that most of them today are recycled and contain chlorinated solvents"
Most" of them, Jim?
I don't doubt it, i'd just like to see it backed up.
I'm still not sure what your problem is...My tech said you were a really cool person, way back when he spoke with you.
He stole a hilarious phrase of yours and ran it into the ground for about a month, in fact.
Hey- you wanna be the last word at Badweb, and shoot down any ideas that don't run parallel to your own, fine.
Nothing wrong with learning new things, though.
} |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 11:01 am: |
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As a former Asian co-worker used to say: "Dees a seengs no goo!"
-Saro |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 06:33 pm: |
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Wait- Your co-worker's no longer Asian?!?!?!?!
What is he now, caucasoid, negroid...? |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:06 pm: |
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Tramp-
 Dude, seriously, that's so bad.... How bad is it? Well, it's a joke that I myself was making after I posted it.
-Saro (or is that Salo?) |
Tramp
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2008 - 07:10 pm: |
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velly Solly...
 |
Wile_ecoyote
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 09:07 am: |
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When did Jackie Chan get involved in this thread? Oops, not PC I aporogize. I may just try all methods mentioned here if one dont work, I'll do 'em all. I have followed this for the past few and love the fact we can all disagree yet agree at the same time. Very democratic dontcha' think? |
Spatten1
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 04:17 pm: |
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The preferred nomenclature is Asian-American, dude. |
Tramp
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2008 - 05:39 pm: |
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Not if the co-worker isn't American.
Asian is actually more broadly correct...what if the guy's a Thai national with a green card? |
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