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Bandm
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/29/france. shooting.demo.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories
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Spike
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

What kind of military shooting demonstration involves shooting at children?
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Cudajohn
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

It says it was a hostage freeing exercise. When would you fire at hostages? Also, blanks are built the same way in every bullet ever made into a blank, with a chrimped end. How you would mistake a real bullet, sharp pointy thing sticking out of the casing, for a chrimped end blank is beyond me so I call criminal act on this one. That or negligence of the worst kind that should result in punishment equal to a criminal act because it should be a serious offense to be that stupid.
When did the French get guns anyway? If the child dies they should string him up!
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Not_purple_s2
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"the incident occurred during a demonstration of hostage-freeing techniques"

If I'm ever taken hostage DO NOT send the French Military to rescue me.
Sounds like they're more likely to hit the hostages than the bad guys.
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Frankfast
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

On the subject of frogs, I've been invaded with tree frogs. Two or three of them communicating with each other can keep you up all night. They are really irritating and you can't see them because they're in the trees. Anyone else incurred this problem?
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Xl1200r
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Obviously, the fact that real bullets were instead of blanks raises more than one eye-brow...

But my question would be: What kind of parent allows a child to be invloved in any denmostration involving firearms being pointed at them, blanks or no blanks?!?!
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Spike
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Another question-

I get that it's possible someone grabbed the wrong clip or whatever, but after the first shot drew blood, why were ~15 more shots fired? Was this a "spray and pray" demonstration? Are the demonstrators known to be really good actors?
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Djkaplan
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Complacency can be a dangerous thing when it comes to firearms.

Remember that badass DEA agent who shot himself in front of all those kids?
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Djkaplan
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"When did the French get guns anyway?"

Most of them have only been dropped once.
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Rfischer
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

An armed Frog is a dangerous Frog, but only if he's on your side...
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Bill0351
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I wonder what their level of discipline and chain of command looks like. In the USMC or US Army that would be failure on the part of the NCOIC.

I remember the almost paranoid level of inspection we would give guys before blank-fire exercises and after live-fire ones. We would break the weapons down and rod the barrels. We would have a layout inspection of all the magazines. We would frisk the guys down and turn out pockets. We would dump packs and 782 gear or LBVs.

In spite of the usually great level of personal discipline, the section leader or squad leader would often find live ammo and thrash the piss out of whoever had it. The guy's team leader would be thrashed along with him. After the squad leaders were done with the inspection, the platoon sergeant would go through and do the same thing.

I wonder who dropped the ball. In our military everybody from the CO on down would be answerable.

Bill

(Message edited by bill0351 on June 30, 2008)
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Bbbob
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I didn't know the French were allowed live ammo.
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Nevrenuf
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

while on board the LaSalle back in 78, we actually had the french chase off an ethiopian gunboat that was in our blind spot. they were a great bunch to party with when we pulled into djibouti. still have a jersey and pants that i traded with one of the guys when we went over to their barracks to have dinner one time while in port. the enlisted people even had their own servants. they might have gotten soft over the years(some of the people) but not the military. that's just my experience with them.
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Froggy
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Oh i saw the thread title and thought someone filmed me riding again...
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Spike
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Another question-

Is anyone else a little discouraged that the military put live rounds in 16 people and none of them are dead? I'm not suggesting that I want civilians to die, I'm just saying that when the military engages a target, I expect the target not to survive.
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Ft_bstrd
Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

We assume the soldier under suspicion was one of the liberators. He may have been acting in the capacity of captor. His responsibility was to kill the hostages at the first sign of trouble.

My concern would be that the liberators were not able to put down a captor before he was able to shoot 16 hostages.
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Bill0351
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 12:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"My concern would be that the liberators were not able to put down a captor before he was able to shoot 16 hostages."

With what? The blanks they were probably all supposed to have with them don't have much stopping power. Simulating the killing of a bad guy is only effective if he is simulating too. The real bullets kind of throw off the usual equation.

I wonder how long it took him to realize the people weren't faking.

Bill
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Danger_dave
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

>>I didn't know the French were allowed live ammo.<<

They let off their damn nuclear bombs in our back yard for a LONG time.
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Cudajohn
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I know our M-16's, M-4's and AK's all need BFA's (Blank Firing Adapters). All gas operated weapons have to have one to fire a blank. Wonder what kind of weapons they use? Gas operated?
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Xl1200r
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Cuda - just trying to understand...

Is a BFA just a device to instill some backpressure into the barrell/chamber that a bullet would normally do for a live round?

I would imagine that something like this would either need to be fitted into the front of the chamber or the end of the barrell, and probably just consist of a blackage with a small hole to relieve the pressure once the action cycled.

If this is the case (and again, I'm stabbing in the dark here), would this device not keep a live round from exiting the firearm? At a minimum, I'd think it would make a god awful noise the first time and should alert the user that something is wrong.
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Bill0351
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

That is exactly what a BFA does. The BFA for the M-16 and M-4 is bright red or yellow and screws onto the front of the flash suppressor. You might be able to shoot it off the front of the barrel without catastrophic weapon failure, but I would bet you would 100% know something was wrong.

Bill
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Aesquire
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The French military is very competent, until you get to colonel & above. It's long been held as gospel that if you HAVE to fight with the French on your side, the trick is to put all the Generals in one building, cut off all communication, supply lots of wine & caviar to the Generals, and don't let them out until the medals are given out at the end of the conflict. Picking a random Sgt. with Foreign Legion experience to run things & not letting the civilian government talk to him, would make them pretty equal to the Brit's, Aussies, Israeli's & American services. With French Generals in charge? Tonga could take them, nukes & all. IMHO

The French Army uses a very nice bullpup design called the trombone for it's shape. I'm pretty sure it needs a BFA. If it's a hostile ( actor ) that did the shooting, it was probably an AK-47, which doesn't use one.

Someone needs to get jail time for incompetence on this one.
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Nevrenuf
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

that's pretty bad when you say someone from tonga could beat them. my niece just came back from there and she couldn't believe how nice the people are there.
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