| Author | Message | ||
     Barker |
Long story short. I have heard the following things in my circles of friends and from my readings on badweb. 1. Riders are feeling some heat and getting tickets for aftermarket pipes on bikes. per EPA and noise laws. 2. Loud pipes risk rights, not save lives 3. EPA laws/regs prohibit modifications to exhaust systems. 4. Dealers are being told/forced into not installing aftermarket pipes and/or modifying emissions systems. If you have a second skim thru this. If not skip to below. http://www.ci.lynnwood.wa.us/Docs/2009%20Harley-Da vidson%20Bid%20FINAL.pdf That pdf is a request for bids/proposals for 6 2009 HD police bikes. They want all bikes to have aftermarket (V&H) pipes and screaming eagle kits installed by the dealer. I guess the laws are good enough for us but not dealers/cops. Maybe the bikes will be used only in "off road" situations. | ||
| Tramp |
That's not a fair assessment- Police vehicles typically feature sirens and emergency lighting, both of which are outlawed for civilian use in most states. Police may also carry weapons unavailable, legally, to the civilian population. Giving their scoots and edge is consistent with the above. | ||
| Jaimec |
Since the CVO Harleys are already sold for street use with the full Screaming Eagle catalog, I can only assume those parts HAVE been federalized to pass EPA requirements... | ||
| Tramp |
Are the V&H pipes part of that SE complement? | ||
| Barker |
I think I went a little over board. Jeez, maybe i just need switch to decaf.  | ||
| Tramp |
It's not a stupid thread...it's a very legitimate concern, it just has answers that any of us might not have arrived at on our own | ||
| Just_ziptab |
With the pipes and stage 1, they still won't be able to catch a Buell. On the other hand, it is a double standard. | ||
| Tramp |
police work is supposed to be a double standard, Zip... Try driving around with red lights flashing on your car's roof, while openly wearing a sidearm, and pulling people over. | ||
| Greenlantern |
police work is supposed to be a double standard, Zip... Try driving around with red lights flashing on your car's roof, while openly wearing a sidearm, and pulling people over. I would but strangely enough...it's against the law  | ||
| Jaimec |
Can't answer your question regarding the V&H pipes, Tramp. Don't know who makes the Screaming Eagle exhaust for Harley... I do know that both Harley AND Buell have removed all non-compliant accessories from their parts catalog though. Naturally, that doesn't mean you can't get non-compliant equipment from OTHER companies... just not from THE company. | ||
| Tramp |
That is strange news, i wasn't aware of the non-compliant accessory ban in the catalogues. strange days have found us. | ||
| Bads1 |
I've heard the Screaming Eagle Pipes on a quite a few HD's. They aren't what the pipes used to sound like.... pretty quiet. | ||
| Ratbuell |
There were "levels" of S/E pipes, the old catalogs differentiated them with logos. Traffic light logo equaled street legal. Stop sign or hand-held-up-saying-"stop" equalled not for road use. The "loud" S/E pipes were all stop sign pipes. You'll notice there are no more stop sign logo pipes in the catalog. The CVO bikes all come from the factory with 49-state legal mufflers and the "street legal" performance kits, including cams. If you have a chance to listen to the mufflers while they're still on the bike...they're pretty quiet. They have the flow, but without the noise. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Loud pipes have absolutely nothing to do with "saving lives". PAYING ATTENTION is what saves lives. Having a loud exhaust is a cop-out so you don't have to pay as much attention to the other guy. Remember, the proponents of "loud pipes save lives" are the folks who tool around on their HDs (or whatevers) wearing not much more than a pair of flip-flops, shorts, a tank top and a $20 skid-lid. Stereotype? Probably. Accurate? Most definitely. I have had NO more close calls on my bone stock Uly than I have had on either of my race-mufflered tubers. Do I like the sound of the race muffler? Yes. I also like the sound of my 72 Satellite with dual 3" flowmasters. Do I think any of that makes me safer on the road? hah, get real. As for the police? They already have an edge with factory 103s in their FLHTs and FLHPs. Just like cager cops have an edge with a different ECM and TCM in their Dodges. And the bid - it looks (oddly) like they are specifying pursuit vehicles, with the "option" of the 110 engine. Either that, or they're ordering showcase vehicles and/or rodeo vehicles (or perhaps "administrative" units?). We had a bid go across our desks a while back for Fairfax County, VA, for a squad of motors to include am/fm/cd players instead of comm units. Odd...their rodeo bikes all blast AC/DC at every competition..... Reminds me of the police chief who ordered himself and his family a big ol' C-body Mopar wagon...but had the factory custom-outfit it with the complete pursuit package from the Fury cop cars. Govier-documented 1 of 1 station wagon. | ||
| Bbbob |
There are specific laws on the books about impersonating police officers. Unless the EPA regs exempt police vehicles, I would think after market pipes on police Harleys wouldn't be technically kosher. | ||
| Tramp |
Emergency vehicles and personnel run exempt from several V&T regs, it needn't fall under criminal impersonation. | ||
| Bbbob |
One point has nothing to do with the other. Point one - criminal impersonation laws prevent civilians from wearing uniforms having light bars etc. Point 2 - Is there an EPA exemption for emergency vehicles? | ||
| Jaimec |
I would think for noise (sirens) yes, but for emissions/pollutants, no. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Loud Pipes save Lives!  (when they are on a police special that is.) | ||
| Tramp |
EPA regulates noise, and that's much of what the EPA reg.s on pipes are for. Criminal impersonation has naught to do with carrying handguns in full view, or having extended mag pump shotguns, autos, etc., either. Emergency personnel are exempted form laws other than those associated with simple impersonation. Swiitchblades can be legally purchased and carried by emergency personnel in all 50 states. this reg. has nothing to with impersonation, either | ||
| Jaimec |
Noise AND exhaust emissions. Both are concerns of the EPA. States can override these (like California) but I don't think they can do it easily... | ||
| Tramp |
OH, christ- jamiec, king of reading half-of-everything: note I responded to your post, 4 up, where you respond re: EPA exemtion: "..noise (sirens) yes, but for emissions pollutants, no" I responded to that when I posted that the EPA does, in fact, regulate noise. I think we're all aware that the EPA regulates emmissions. Incidentally- cal. doesn't 'override' EPA reg.s, they add enhancements- in other words, they can have state laws that are more strict, but not less so. | ||
| Greenlantern |
Peas and Carrots ....Peas and Carrots...  | ||
| Cityxslicker |
heres the crap about it, and the hot rodders went through this in the 80s with Mandated EFI and cat/exhaust regs; essentially making it a misdemeaner for tampering with vehicle smog/exhaust/emissions. And in California you have another layer of pollution/noise/emissions nanny enforcement. The pipes that are on all of my bikes are LOUD. There is a year cutoff that was exempt with cars, I dont hear any law enforcement/emissions compliance board chatting about that. In cars everything prior to 1970 you were ok, by 72 things got worse, and by 84 the power was sucked so far out of cars that its a wonder we still have them today. The pipes I bought, when I bought them, were legal for the model make and year that I purchased. I know there are bigger fish to fry for law enforcement than my popping on decel when obeying the speed limit (hell let me speed and the pipes smooth out nicely) That rumble, bark and grumble you hear at 20mph at 2k rpm is a function of the speed, not the pipe. Up my limits, it makes for quiet pipes  2003 XL883R SuperTrapp w/ disks 2005 XL883R Thunder Header 2006 XB9SX The Last company produced and supported race pipe for the bike I wont even mention the chopper project that is in the works sporting dual cherry bombs. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Why should cops need Screaming Eagle pipes so they can pollute the air and make a bunch of noise, an still be relatively underpowered. If Harley can't make a decent bike for the police job, buy a Japanese bike that will be quiet, fast, and won't pollute. Then, and only then, will Harley consider making a competitive machine. Just like autos, if we kept buying pieces of shit from Detroit in during the last 25 years they would not have made so many improvements to the vehicles in recent years. Let the market forces rule. Don't support an American product that is inferior, or it will always be inferior. Otherwise you are basically stating that Americans don't have the brains and abilities to make a bike that keeps up with imports. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Why should cops need Screaming Eagle pipes so they can pollute the air um....how in the world does a muffler contribute to pollution? Unless you mean *noise* pollution... | ||
| Spatten1 |
ONE MORE VERY STRONG STATEMENT: If you don't remember what air was like in Southern California before the emission restrictions, you have no idea how lucky we are to have them. With less than half of the current number of vehicles, the air in the 1970's was barely breathable. You could hardly read billboards on the side of the highway some days. Kids were getting sick. Be very happy we don't have to live in a •••••• brown cloud like Mexico City, and now our vehicles are faster and better than ever. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Ratbuell, As soon as you change the sound wave related back pressure with a new muffler to maximize higher RPM you create less back pressure at lower RPM during overlap and lose more unburned fuel out of the exhaust. If you have constantly variable valve timing this is not an issue. Harley does not have that technology. As far as I know, only the new Concours 14 does. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Ratt: Also, if you use a more free flowing exhaust and do not properly compensate with the fueling you will create a leaner condition, which contributes to NOx pollution. If you compensate fueling, and it is not perfect at all RPMs, you will either make more HC, CO, or NOx. I don't believe the guy in the garage with a Power Commander will get the fueling dialed in anywhere nearly as well as the Harley factory did. | ||
| Ratbuell |
Yes, all that is true. But it is not the mufflers causing the emissions - it's the poor state of tune. You can be just as out of tune with stock mufflers as you can with aftermarket. Conversely, you can have spotless emissions with performance mufflers, if properly tuned. My Satellite bracket car, when I had regular tags on it, breezed through emissions testing with a 450hp smallblock - enough to run the 4400lb car through the quarter in 11 seconds. We put out a lot of HDs with either powercommander maps or HD Race Tuners (called the SuperTuner now, I think) with the air/fuel right in line, all through the powerband. An O2 sensor system is a wonderful thing. I guess it's just hot here and I was nitpicking. Semantics...mufflers do not cause poor emissions was my only point. | ||
| Slaughter |
There you go, thinking LOGICALLY again... Try telling that to the bureaucrats though! Powercommander got nailed to the CAL EPA cross when they got crucified because some non-racers were installing non-CAL EPA modules for STREET USE. Cost Powercommander a little over $2.5 million in fines - not to mention almost that much in court/legal costs. Now you can buy CAL-Legal Powercommanders. It's coming. I still have all my original S3 take-offs. I'm probably never gonna sell the S3 but might need the stuff IF they ever mandate smog testing. I wish that you COULD prove an emissions output in gms/mile or whatever measure - and however you got there was your business. States/Fed should set limits and it'd be up to you/me to meet those limits... but I'm just a lowly taxpayer and the Government knows best how to micro-manage. (ok, rant off - too much coffee again) |
