| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance |
Reg, sorry to take so long to answer. You ask a good question, and I've spent the last couple days pondering over it. I see similar phenomena in my own industry, and I've wondered about it before. I think the answer basically lies in the fact that quality isn't really as important as people say it is. Sure they bitch when their bike breaks, but when it comes down to it, for many people who are looking at this bike, there is only one real question: Is it faster than a 1098 or a GSXR. Beyond that, time to market is always critically important for something like this. Next years 1098 and GSXR will be faster than this years. This years 1125 will not be so impressive next year. Also, there are hard and fast dates that have to be met. The bike had to be introduced at the dealer meeting for the 25th anniversary. That was decided several years ago. The press introductions for this bike were scheduled months in advance. The Inside Pass trackdays were scheduled long before they occured. Those aren't slippable dates. They all had to be scheduled before the bike was ready, and they all had to happen on time, regardless of how polished the bike was. Certainly showing up at a press event with a poorly sorted bike means someone screwed up the planning. But conversely, having a flawless release means you could have squeezed more features into the bike, or released it earlier. Part of project management is deciding how aggressive to be with the schedule and what flaws can be tolerated. You asked why flaws were acceptable just because other brands had them. It is the competition with the other brands that creates both the innovation and the flaws that accompany it. Whether or not this is acceptable depends on the market you're in. If reliability is of paramount importance, a Sportster or a Connie are both excellent motorcycles. If you're considering an 1125, you likely find both of those bikes incredibly dated and boring. If you want the newest fastest thing, you have to buy it before all the bugs get worked out. By the time it's perfect it too will be dated. Would I tolerate it in my garden tractor? Hell no. But these guys might:   | ||
| Tramp |
Those bastards are having too much fun My hat's off to them.  | ||
| Blake |
I challenge anyone who holds that motorcycles, especially sport bikes, should be perfectly sorted upon initial release to please have a go at doing so. I don't think, correction... I KNOW that even the well-experienced moto-afficianado has the least inkling of an idea of what it really takes to bring a commercial product like a new sport bike to market, especially one that is a first of its kind to the manufacturer. I appreciate the frustration and I share it, but some of the pronouncements seemingly made from on high are tough to swallow. It's easy to be a critic. How would you solve the problems that you see? Anyone got any answers? | ||
| M2nc |
It is said that the Japanese test for four years then put out a well sorted product, while the Americans test a product for two years, then spend two years sorting it out in the market. "Never buy a first model year car", my dad would say. Well, I did not listen with the Uly. I figured the Uly was a revised XB with proven components. I love the bike and mine has been a good one. 30,000 miles on the bike and you can read all I have done to it. It has been more reliable than my CB750 and more reliable than my M2. I lived through the weave, ping, broken latches, kick stand, BAS issues with only about half actually affecting me. That said I look at the '08 Uly and think to myself, now its complete. Anyone that has taken a basic business course knows the pressure a business has to bring a product to market in time to reap profits from market demands. If you design a product for a market demand and by the time the product reaches the market the demand is gone, or filled by a competitor, the loss in potential revenue is huge. American businesses strive on first to market, but at a cost of reliability and customer satisfaction and loyalty. The magic date syndrome is a real problem if the bike is not ready. Where I work we have had similar issues with new models. We had a product launch some years ago that did not go well. The warranty cost were quite high. After that senior management put in place a system to bring new models to market. We have over the course of the subsequent years put out over two dozen new or revised models company wide, with each model performing better than the last. The major difference is that we have several stages of product builds and design verifications now that we go through prior to sales commit. We bought a test facility where these first one off models are thoroughly tested by engineers removed from the design team. We then have two different stages of design verification builds that we test both product in the field with select customers and the manufacturing processes. Then after many revision changes over the course of the design, testing and manufacturing ramp ups, we are ready to take orders. Even then the first 100 trucks are extensively tested in the plant to make sure all the changes during the verification process have effectively corrected any issues found. Buell needs more real world testing to eliminate these first model year blues and as a loyal customer am offering my services to ride their test bikes in the real world. This way when press time comes, the bikes are ready.  Long story to set that punch line up, huh. | ||
| Ducxl |
How would you solve the problems that you see? Anyone got any answers? It needs to be Less about the bottom line(sourcing crap components)and more about making outstanding motorcycles.BMC is a company run by financial analysts/bean counters. We need less of that,and more concentration on quality. Ducati is a company always seemingly operating on the brink of bankruptcy. They have their priorities straight | ||
| Glitch |
Ducati is a company always seemingly operating on the brink of bankruptcy. They have their priorities straight Interesting perspective. | ||
| Ducxl |
It's about passion over profit.I know in our ultra-Capitalist society profit rules. But in the case of BMC profit is getting in the way of quality product. I'm 100% certain in my sources | ||
| Jlnance |
It needs to be Less about the bottom line(sourcing crap components)and more about making outstanding motorcycles. I suspect the decision to sell the bike for $12,000 has a lot to do with component selection.  | ||
| Ducxl |
GIGO | ||
| Spike |
Which current Buell components are crap and/or garbage? | ||
| Regkittrelle |
This is odd, on any number of levels Blake has stated, "The Buell XBikes are among the most reliable on the planet." This, he writes, has come from "a trusted source," which, apparently, he can't reveal. Sussing this out a bit leaves me with this... Foremost, if indeed this is a fact, then why isn't it publicized? One of the biggest issues that Buell has had to deal with is the reliability (real or perceived) of its motorcycles. Often they have been portrayed in a very negative light due, in my opinion, to the somewhat abysmal record of the X1. Had the first motorcycle out of the Buell box been the XB series, reliability would not be such a talking point. Interestingly, boards like this actually can reinforce the negative insomuch as they are a focal point for issues and complaints. I had a friend read over some of the 1125-related entries. Afterwards his unsolicited comment to me was that he’d “… never in hell buy one of those.” My information is empirical, anecdotal if you will, in nature, but it does appear that the XB bikes are doing OK in the reliability area. But, “…among the most reliable on the planet?” I’ll need some hard numbers before I buy that. I hope it to be true, but have my doubts. But then, I guess it really depends upon how reliability is measured. I have some experience, though dated, in the manufacturing and quality arenas. At one time I was an engineering manager in a mainframe computer company. Part of my responsibilities involved quality assurance training, development and implementation of SPC protocols, and ISO certification. If I learned nothing else from that experience it was … say, here’s a surprise… you can make numbers support just about any position you want to take. In the wheeled world J.D. Powers ranks as an authority on vehicle reliability. You can argue with their methodology (customer satisfaction, mainly) but their pronouncements do carry weight. Correct me if I’m wrong, but, I can’t recall seeing Buell mentioned in their top rankings. So how has this “…among the most reliable on the planet” status been determined? Certainly Buell has and does monitor its own performance, but to make such a pronouncement would require that it bounce its numbers off everyone else’s. How does that happen? Absent a respected, independent intermediary (such as JD Powers or the MIC) I can’t see, for example, Abe calling up his counterpart at Honda and getting internal, highly proprietary, data on audits, CSI rankings, warranty claims, etc. Someone needs to enlighten me just how this works. So why am I spending the time thinking about this? Because I think the miasma of half-truths (be they negative or positive) that surround the Buell brand do nothing but impede its progress. In this current example, just think how positive the influence if Buell were to publicize a claimed status as among the most reliable. Presented with credible data, more of the general riding public … and many motojournalists … might begin to consider Buell in a more positive light. Which brings me back to Blake’s “trusted source.” T’ain’t no such thing, folks. It has been my extensive experience that “trusted sources” carry a dull axe.” This does not make them bad people; it just makes them effective employees looking for a place to “grind” that axe. The “grind” can take the form of getting information, finding a friendly outlet to “leak” news, dulling criticism by swamping the negatives, and on and on. This is a symbiotic relationship, however, as the recipient of this seemingly largesse outpouring also can get inside info, the lifeblood of anyone writing about, in this case, motorcycles. But here’s the rub; the downside of this always lands on the recipient. In this instance, Blake. Buell has isolated itself by the use of “Anon.” and Blake’s integrity. They can feed him information without fear of exposure. In the event of being challenged, Blake has no alternative but to claim confidentiality. In this example, the “trusted source” tells Blake of the XB’s reliability status knowing that it, eventually, will reach these pages where a certain percentage of readers will take it as gospel and pass it along. The fact that the information in unsubstantiated can get easily lost in the celebration. Ergo, “trusted source” has accomplished his objective. The ultimate truth about a “trusted source” is that you can trust them to do what’s best for them. | ||
| Jaimec |
Anecdotal evidence: After owning my 2000 M2 Cyclone I can honestly appreciate the passion my friends had for Italian cars. It seemed they spent more time in the shop than on the road "but when they're running there's nothing like them." I'd been monitoring the boards after the XBs came out. That first year was NOT good with the fragile belt drive systems they had. I had my eye on the KTM Superduke, but they just kept delaying the introduction of that bike to the States. Finally in the late summer of 2005 the XB12Ss broke cover and it answered ALL of my concerns regarding the XB series. Decent fuel capacity and touring range, comfortable saddle, more durable belt drive (said to be a "Lifetime belt") and a more "natural" riding position. Since it still wasn't clear when the Superduke would reach these shores (if ever) I decided to take the leap. 23,000 miles later the XB12Ss IS at least as reliable as anything else I've ever owned. Is it the MOST reliable? Probably not but it is LIGHT YEARS better than my 2000 M2 Cyclone ever was. For comparison's sake, I've been riding since 1982, I have a 300,000 mile award from BMW of North America and the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America. In addition to my three BMWs I've also owned three Yamahas, one Kawasaki and two Buells. | ||
| Ducxl |
My XBr headlights are VERY unreliable.On my second reflector in 13k miles. Reg,can you enlighten me as to the X1 abyssmal record to which you state? My own '99 X1 has never let me down, either mechanically OR FI | ||
| Azxb9r |
BMC is a company run by financial analysts/bean counters. We need less of that,and more concentration on quality. Unfortunately, this seems to be the case with most companies these days. As for reliability... if a product has a reliability problem on initial release, that stigma tends to stay with it. Even if the problem is fixed quickly, that initial impression creates a reputation that can take years to overcome. The belt failures on the 03 XBs still haunt them today, even though the problem was fixed long ago. A small company like Buell does not have the resources for R&D that a company like Honda has. That can lead to problems on early production bikes, which leads to that "unreliable" tag. People become angry when they spend money on something that does not work the way they expect it to, whether that expectation is realistic or not. All it takes is a couple of people calling something "junk", or saying it is "unreliable" to cause doubt in a potential buyers mind. IMO this is one reason that Buell will not get the accolades that it deserves, and remain a relatively small market company. It may also keep them in a constant loop of trying to crawl out from under the "unreliable" tag. Warning: The above post is merely my opinion, and may have no actual merit whatsoever. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Duc... The tone for the X1 was set from Day 1 at the press intro in St. George, Utah. The problems were centered around the f.i., a pattern that continued well into production. It was during this period that I was publishing Battle2win Magazine so I was quite close to the problem. The longer the X1 was in production, the better it worked but, overall I'd guess (I don't have the data)that the initial X1's ranked among the worst of the Buells re reliability. The X1 was a classic example of a product being released before it was ready for prime time. Personally, I never liked the look of the X1 with the exception of the Millennium model. However, a well set-up X1 was a more comfortable ride than on the S1 and had/has the potential of being a better motorcycle for day-to-day use. At the time I recall talk about the S1 being killed off because (in one personal instance) there wasn't enough crazy people like me around to buy it. I've said this before... I think the S1 represents the purest of Erik's vision for a motorcycle. The X1, on the other hand, was a very obvious ploy to appeal to a younger demographic. The S1 was a passion exercise; the X1 was a marketing exercise. In future classic bike auctions I think the S1 will command premium money. I've yet to see a subsequent Buell that will attain the same stature,... possibly the RR My S1 has never let me down. | ||
| Ducxl |
Thanks Reg.I'm aware of the "Battle2win" mag.That'd make another great topic. When i bought the X1 i was prepared/w cash for a new(at the time) S1w.The X1 was being uncrated and,the FI won me over. The X1 is not the most stylish,but works superb for me. I'll never let Buell pass poor product,but they are great machines otherwise | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Once you've been tagged as unreliable it takes years to overcome. The domestic auto industry is an example of that. | ||
| Tramp |
The (US) domestic auto industry examples another dynamic altogether, not just of tags of unreliability, but of an habitually-recurrent culture of this. That being said, many earlier, simpler, conventionally-aspirated American cars tended toward high reliability. The ole Mopar Slant-sixes would stack up well in such terms, even today, and the Ford V6 powering so many rangers and explorers has carried a decent torch of reliability, much as the 4.3 (I believe that was the litre, but i may have it off by a couple tenths) GM v-6, as opposed to the 2.8 of the same period. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Tramp... Interesting that you bring this up. For some strange reason I've had half-an-eye out for a MoPar slant six in just about any body config. Strange. also... I just received an e-mail from a St. George survivor. He reminded me of just how bad the bike and how good the experience. | ||
| Buellgator |
I think the point of bringing the problems of other bikes into the discussion has more to do with the fact that yes there are problems with the Buells. However it is not like Buell is the only one having problems with their new bikes. I also believe that Buell gets a bad rap about reliability in the sportbike community in general because of the HD connection. It seems to me that alot of current day sport riders form their opinions of anything with a bar and shield association, based on motorcycles that haven't been around in thirty years. These people have never been around an HD product in their entire life, but because a friend of a friend of their uncle had a POS shovelhead, anything that has anything to do with Harley is junk. Either way I am on my 6th Buell, and not a single one has ever left me stranded. I certainly don't believe I am just lucky. | ||
| Lootenantdan1203 |
Isn't Perfect the enemy of Goodenough? I suspect that Buell Incorporated has determined, over the course of 25 years, exactly how much a person who might actually buy a Buell will tolerate. Delivering a product that is better than it needs to be to that person is wasteful. Every motorcycle buyer has a list of wants/needs/likes, and no motorcycle will ever satisfy every item on that list. Motorcycle manufacturers realize this, and they build motorcycles that completely satisfy three or four items that might be on any given motorcyclist's list. Big, full-line manufacturers make motorcycles that satisfy lots of different lists. Buell Incorporated makes motorcycles that satisfy three or four different lists. I'll bet that the only Buell that satisfies a list that includes "Anvil-like Reliability" is the Blast. Could the 1125R have been flawlessperfect for the press launch? Yes. Did it need to be? I would argue that it didn't. | ||
| Tramp |
"perfection is the enemy of progress" | ||
| Regkittrelle |
LtDan... Were that true it would strongly imply that Buell has accredited its customers with a degree of idiocy that does not fit those owners with whom I am aware. | ||
| Lootenantdan1203 |
Reg, Buell hasn't accredited its customers with a degree of idiocy, it has recognized its customers and given them as much of what they want as is possible. Dig, if you will, the picture: Joe Bike Buyer wants a bike that's fast, comfy, pretty, reliable; that handles, and has a huge aftermarket. In that order. Bill Bike Buyer wants a bike that's reliable, that has a huge aftermarket, that's fast, comfy, pretty, and handles. In that order. Joe might buy a Buell. Bill probably won't. But you think Joe is an idiot? Or, rather, you think that Buell thinks that Joe is an idiot? I want a bike that's fast, comfy, pretty, reliable; that handles, and has a huge aftermarket. I also want a Red Ryder carbine-action, two hundred shot, Range Model air rifle BB gun, with a compass in the stock, and a thing which tells time. Also, Salma Hayek. | ||
| Thumper74 |
My Buell is as reliable as a stone. I get the metric riders criticizing it's reliability due to the association with Harley. I think it says volumes about a company's faith in their product when they can offer a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty. I feel that Buell could have done better on the launch, but dropped the ball. They aren't the first company to do so. The positive attribute to Buell is that they are small enough to react quickly to customer concerns and address the issues... Honda isn't perfect... The new Civics have a faulty seal on the rear wheel bearing... The new Accords have an issue with a bad pinch weld in the trunk area causing a creaking noise. The CRVs have issues with a motor mount being out of alignment. What you don't know is that Honda will do ANYTHING to make it right. Just like Buell seems to be willing to do. I think next model year's bike will be an absolute beast. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
Lt... I don't question the concept; just the degree to which you apply it. Certainly companies recognize, and cater to, certain owner-types. What I do question is the idea that Buell has consciously decided to offer flawed product because its customers will accept it. I have never questioned Buell's intent to produce a quality motorcycle. However, intent and execution have often ended up at odds with each other. And, by the way, Penelope Cruz has ALL over Salma Hayek. Thumper; Trying bouncing Honda's defects/k-units against Buell's. | ||
| Rainman |
I like anvil-like reliability. My Blast handles a hell of a lot better than an anvil, it's just not as fast. | ||
| Thumper74 |
I wasn't saying that Honda's failure rate his higher than anyone elses... I was just saying that even brands that are thought of as being reliable, take 4 years before they hit the street, etc have problems. Personally, a bad weld in the body of my car would piss me off. Would I knowlingly buy a car that had this concern? No. Would I buy a Honda? Yes. Honda is taking steps to correct this. I have an SVT Focus and they knowingly put weak clutches in (VERY common problem) and at 55k, it had it's THIRD clutch replaced out of my own pocket. GM has has intake gasket problems for years in the 2.8/3.1/3.4/3.5 engines and it's STILL a problem. They were supposed to fix it with each update and the G6 was promised to not have these issues... | ||
| Koz5150 |
When I started this big discussion it was to voice my frustration with Buell and how it is perceived. I am not a head hunter, but lets get real. Is it better to do a product relase with bikes that don't run, or would it have been better to reschedule the release till the bikes were sorted out? Ever heard the term eat your own dog food? Maybe the the staff should be comuting to work daily on some of those 1125's and experience the same issues I seem to read about. Then at the end of the summer do a comercial stating the number of miles they logged, problem free. Or maybe they could figure out how to fix all the issues people keep having. I have met Erik, he is a nice guy. I want to see Buell be successful, just like any other Red White and Blue blooded American biker here. But bad press sucks and that is what people remember. I had a guy talk to me about buying a Buell the other day and I told him not to. The newer bikes are not good and they got no soul. Reg is right that I believe the S1 will be the most sought after Buell over time. I think the X1 was not a great looking bike, but not butt ugly. The XB's were ok, my personal favorite was the most recent White and Blue XB12R with the 03 White and Orange Decal XB9R a close second. But With all the TPS reset crap in order to change a part, I am just not sold on them. The 1125R is starting out BAD. I don't care for the looks of it, I have yet to read a good press release, and again, no soul to that bike. I look at it and it just says "blah". If Ducati can make a 1098 super bike and still reatin the Monster series, why can't Buell? I don't think I will buy another Buell until they change the company motto from "Different in every sense" to "We build kick ass American cycles" and have the product to prove it. | ||
| Ducxl |
As a machinist i now make parts as bad as possible.Bad as in the least amount of labor for a part the customer will accept. This kills invention/ingenuity,and hurts quality.But Capitalism rules HOW i approach my job. Same at BMC Welcome to the new (Message edited by Ducxl on May 30, 2008) |
