| Author | Message | ||
     Tramp |
The reason I purchased a Buell (and I've never regretted it, by the way) was because I'd sold my FXR, was still riding my '86 ZX900 and my '81 Katanah, test-riding Triumphs and working for BMW.... and I was spending time with a bay area club who requires that prospective members own & ride a HD product. ...were it not for that avocation, I'd probably be running a nice, fat Beemer PD or a Duc St2, like the one that a motorcycle journalist was riding up by Alice's in '96 when I was out riding with my soon-to-be boss on my interview trip. | ||
| Bombardier |
I have a K100 BMW as well as an 07 12R. The BMW is a very reliable machine and the superior German technology and over-engineering shows through at every angle. It is just so bloody boring to ride! The 'Bolt runs rough at times and has me thinking of ways to fix it but it is without a doubt the most exilarating bike that I have ever ridden. Love them or hate them, they are the duck's nuts. | ||
| Koz5150 |
Reg - Well said! I just have gotten to the point where I cringe evertime I read a review lately. The issues document by journalist are not like/dislike issues (well some of them are), but rather "this didn't work", "Temp readings were over 210 degrees", "bike stalls and won't restart", "battery was dead on arrival", "battery died on second test bike within two days"... I think you get the picture. Maybe Buell should stop handing out free patches, backpacks, kneepucks, knit hats, a second backback, neck gators, and baseball hats (have I missed anything) and stick that money into some reliability testing. Can you say Quality Assurance??? Does the term Six Sigma mean anything to Buell??? I think the tubers were so cool because they were kinda like a Harley Sportbike. I have always thought the Tubers reminded me of the classic muscle cars of the 60's. They had character, the right sound (with an aftermarket exhaust added) and classic cool looks. The 1125r is like a modernday sportbike that is being held back because it seems to try and hold onto some sort of Harley character, of which it doesn't look anything like. I bet 30 years from now (if there is anything left running on gas) Tubers will be the most sought after Buells. Hell, they might even sell for what they did when new! 1125r's and XB's might be good for recycling the frame... | ||
| Rick_a |
My '96 S1 was a magnificent and almost perfect machine mechanically until after it had about 15000 miles on a then very stock machine. The next 10,000 miles was a bit of an ordeal. The basic tally so far has been: Rocker boxes leak Rear isolators A charging system Broken drive belt Blown head gasket Split oil pump feed line Another charging system Bad crank seal Broken front cylinder head @ mount Blown shock Front and rear isolators Engine case leak Bad oil pump drive gear Excessive crank runout It's still a magnificent machine in my eyes and I certainly haven't babied it any. Everything that's failed in the past has been replaced with upgraded components. With any luck she'll be running well again for some time. Compared to many of the early tuber stories the XB's seem to have faired much better...with most problems being much simpler and cheaper fixes than those of yesteryear. Most complaints seem to focus on quirks rather than outright issues. The 1125R's seem to need a little sorting but I wouldn't call 'em seriously flawed just yet. Aside from the FI issue the only warranty work I've seen so far is one with leaky cam covers. Only time will tell. | ||
| Blake |
"Why ... is it acceptable to pay $13k-$14K for something (In this case an 1125)and not have it work properly?" In addition to what Jay (Tramp) wrote, I'd say that the issue comes down to a couple things. First is the product's context of sale, meaning is the "something" an appliance that has been in mass production by the millions for some time or is it a first run, all-new, exotic never been done before product in its infancy, or is it maybe somewhere in between? Did the first customer of a Buell motorcycle, an RW750, expect flawless performance? Does paying $10+K for a brand new product justify expectations of flawlessness? I don't think so. But I would agree that paying for a product does justify expectations of being treated competently and with concern if/when any issues arrise. Second, is some level of flawed performance acceptable or at least understandably endured while it is being responsibly resolved under warranty, or is any flaw whatsoever not to be tolerated by the customer? Is a frame fracturing in two less acceptable than an imperfect EFI system that produces slight surging under very specific conditions? "And why ... is it acceptable to accept this just because similar teething problems can be found with other brands?" It seems to be a fact of life in the market, and even for space travel. Let's not confuse the reluctant acceptance of some issues by some customers with any kind of imagined acceptance by the folks engineering and manufacturing the product. If the manufacturer of a product is accepting of defects and poor performance, Houston, we have a problem! It's two different issues. Yes? "Would this same magnanimous position be taken if it happened with your car, your plasma TV, your garden tractor?" Is it "magnanimous" or "realistic", and does this not relate perfectly to the issue of a mass-produced appliance versus that which is not? "It is very easy to make excuses for "friends," to justify problems. Yet, how friendly is the bank when your Buell, TV, garden tractor is in the shop? Do they cut you slack because you know nice guys at the factory?" That is a non-sequiter. One says "excuses" while another says "explanations." Excuses are lame. Explanations are reality. Life is not perfect, nothing on this Earth involving humankind is close to perfect. Problems happen no matter what magnitude of efforts or investments are made to prevent them. People must be responsible and realistic in their financial dealings. Expecting perfection from any manufacturer is foolish. It'd be nice if we could expect to avoid ecoli when eating fresh greens. The integrity of a manufacturers is revealed not only in how well they avoid putting to market products with problems, but also and even more so in how they handle unexpected problems that come to light after shipment. "It is your money, your loan that pays for a company's defects." I disagree. The company pays for its own defective products through lost profit and damaged reputation in the marketplace. "I think it just great that now and again "anon" comes aboard and helps. And I think it just ridiculous that they need to." While their contributions are much appreciated and often helpful, I disagree that any anony/anonies "need" to contribute here. First time out for a brand new engine in a brand new motorcycle by a young and growing manufacturer and we should not expect teething issues? Come on Reg. It's never happened, ever. What I would expect is that if/when any issues arise, then my dealer and the manufacturer will resolve them rather than try to excuse them. | ||
| Blake |
I'll also add that I do very much agree that something is amiss with the QA scheme/organization employed by Buell Motorcycle Company. They need a VP of QA who reports directly to the CEO and who has the authority to unilaterally shut down any/all stages of engineering and production as he/she sees fit. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
What I would expect is that if/when any issues arise, then my dealer and the manufacturer will resolve them rather than try to excuse them. The Firebolt headlight issue must be only days away from a resolution. | ||
| Tramp |
"I'll also add that I do very much agree that something is amiss with the QA scheme/organization employed by Buell Motorcycle Company. They need a VP of QA who reports directly to the CEO and who has the authority to unilaterally shut down any/all stages of engineering and production as he/she sees fit." Nice point, one that I hadn't considered. | ||
| Spike |
Just a tidbit about new models- A buddy of mine bought a brand new ZX-6R a few weeks ago. He rode it all day Saturday, left it parked on Sunday, then tried to ride it to work on Monday only to find that it was running extremely rough and wouldn't get out of the parking lot under its own power. He trucked his 3-day-old bike to the dealer who diagnosed the problem as fouled plugs. They said the fouled plugs were his fault and charged him ~$90 in parts and labor to remedy the problem. | ||
| Iamike |
From the Honda ST1300 board: Surge problem from low rpms Excessive heat problems to rider Vehicles pull to right Thermostat sticks open From the Honda VFR board: $1,000 V-Tec valve adjustment Surge problems from low rpms Engine temp spikes Problems not addressed properly by dealer or Honda | ||
| Spatten1 |
Here we go, standard Badweb: Point out the odd specific Japanese bikes that have issues to prove that it is OK that Buells are having problems. You won't convince too many Japanese bike owners with that argument, because too many of them have had years of trouble free ownership, myself included. Do they have quirks? Sure. Do they show up at magazines stalling, running like doo doo, and draining batteries overnight? Not very often. Not three bikes in a row. That is pathetic, and looks horrible to the rest of the MC world. Now, enough race wins and some better reviews may very well overcome the bad publicity from these early problems. | ||
| Spike |
The point is not to excuse the 1125R failures; I and many others here have already plainly stated that the failures of the 1125Rs in Buell's press fleet are inexcusable. You're welcome to ignore that. The point is that this idea that Japanese bikes are faultless or bulletproof is simply untrue. I don't even have to seek out unique or isolated incidents to indicate otherwise. My brother-in-law bought a new 999 around the same time that I bought my new XB12R. I can't say for certain how many miles are on it since it was turned into a track-only bike after a year or so of ownership. Aside from a failed fuel pump, it was a mostly reliable bike when he rode it on the street. However, persistent issues kept costing him track time. He eventually decided he was tired of trying to maintain an "exotic" bike and was going to get a Japanese I4 for track use. He paid a decent chunk of change for a fully sorted '06 GSX-R750 that was used for WERA racing in a previous season. So far, the GSX-R has lost him track time on two different occasions, both to major failures. The first was a transmission failure. It was initially suspected to be a clutch issue, but upon teardown it was discovered that the mainshaft of the transmission was fractured. The 2nd failure was a failed timing chain resulting in bent valves and other top end damage. You might dismiss the 999 and the GSX-R as being track-related failures that wouldn't occur on a street bike, but he also purchased a KTM SuperDuke for street use. The SD has been mechanically solid, but it had an electrical failure that required the instrumentation to be replaced (with the incorrect mileage), and it's been back to the dealer more than once in an attempt to sort out a front end wobble/instability under braking. The bike also has a weep on the right side of the oil tank. The oil weep is minor, but the wet/dusty section on an otherwise spotless motorcycle always stands out to me. In truth I think all three are excellent motorcycles and I wouldn't hesitate to own any one of them, but every single one of them has had issues. Aside from the KTM which has ~4k miles on it, I think the other two have each given him more downtime than I've had in the last ~30k miles with my '04 Firebolt. | ||
| Impulse_101 |
Japanese bikes are far from flawless. My brand new SV1000S had a frayed wire in the ignition assembly that had to be replaced two weeks after purchase. The battery was dead too. My CBR600F3's engine died after 18,000 miles, while my Buell S3T's engine never leaked a drop of oil and was still running strong at 12,000 miles, still with the original seals and it is still running for the new owner. I think that it's the small things that Buell misses that drive people nuts. Not getting a beefier voltage regulator, missing the proper hardness bolts on the stand for the Ulysses, leaky bags with bad latches. All of those are infuriating little issues that can deadline your bike that would be far easier to fix at the factory than to hunt down the problem once the bikes have been shipped. JT | ||
| Spatten1 |
I think that it's the small things that Buell misses that drive people nuts. Agreed. The old XB clutch cable adjuster boot let water leak into the tranny, ruining my bearings. This is not a major design flaw, but it causes big problems for the owner. I'll say right now that the clutch cable design and my broken primary chain are both leftovers from 1950's HD engineering that Buell is saddled with. Now and going forward, I believe that where Buell should focus the most is where the bikes are different than competitors. Make sure the proprietary FI is flawless, belts don't break, and ZTL works as good or better at braking as the competition. When the unusual in-house proprietary designs fail or perform at a lower level than competitors, it makes the brand look quirky and weak. | ||
| Tramp |
"Agreed. The old XB clutch cable adjuster boot let water leak into the tranny, ruining my bearings. This is not a major design flaw, but it causes big problems for the owner. I'll say right now that the clutch cable design and my broken primary chain are both leftovers from 1950's HD engineering that Buell is saddled with. " Bear in mind the BMW Boxers suffered from the same inherent design flaw, only with the dry "car" clutch of the Beemer, in concert with the positioning of the release bearing, the issues were oft-compounded. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Yeah, BMW, to me, is a very quirky brand, and very high priced. Through the 80's and 90's there were always announcements of the sporty model coming, then it was always too heavy, too long, and underpowered. Now they have the power, but the bikes are still long and heavy for sporting models. And the fuel injection was a well known pile of steaming..... for many years. Great touring bikes if you get a model that has proven reliable over time. There are a few boxer models that I'd love to have at a 50% discount. I can certainly see getting one of the BMWs that have the bugs ironed out and feeling very good about it, but I wouldn't buy a first year Beemer, ever. I think Buell, without the brand cache that BMW has, often falls in the same trap for being known as quirky. The recent magazine articles do not help. | ||
| Blake |
Scott, "Point out the odd specific Japanese bikes that have issues to prove that it is OK that Buells are having problems." There you go, yet another misinterpretation and over-reaction to those trying to have a respectful discussion of the facts. Please show us where anyone anywhere on this discussion forum has ever stated that "it is okay that Buells are having problems", especially problems like "(showing) up at magazines stalling, running like doo doo, and draining batteries overnight." Get real Scott. Good grief. The Buell XBikes are among the most reliable on the planet. | ||
| Blake |
The clutch adjuster boot is fine if it is fitted properly. The design may lend itself to a mis-fitment, but when fit as designed, it performs as intended. | ||
| Spatten1 |
The clutch adjuster on my 2003 XB had a rubber boot that was bigger than the metal collar, it could not be fit properly. It was not like the current adjuster boot. The only proper fitment was a zip tie, otherwise water ran down the cable into the tranny. Trust me, I drained the chocolate milk from my tranny. I found out where the water was getting in and the zip-tie solution right here on BadWeb. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
"The Buell XBikes are among the most reliable on the planet." Blake, You may,indeed, be correct with that statement. However, I'd be interested in the metrics, the data that supports it. | ||
| Spatten1 |
Blake, on a thread about Buells sucking in current new model magazine tests, what is the point about bringing up an old CBR or GSXR that crapped out? They didn't crap out in the magazine tests. To me, it is a deflection of the topic, and not relevant. | ||
| Rick_a |
People just need to accept that anything built by man, or even built by machines created by man, can and will have faults, issues, and failures. I've been researching my next bike for years...still haven't come to a solid decision but have learned that many bikes of all manufacturers tend to not get fully sorted until well into their production run...with some having known glaring issues that never get resolved. That's just how it is, regardless of how big or small a company, or how long they've been in business. | ||
| Blake |
Reg, I don't have the data, just the word of a trusted source who does. (Message edited by Blake on May 28, 2008) | ||
| Bill0351 |
Percentages of warranty/defects would be good statistics to have. Anecdotal experiences don't mean much when discussing brand reliability. For better or worse, those magazine tests are like a job interview. If you mess up, you don't often get a second chance with the people who read the article. If I was in the market for a new bike and wasn't already sold on the brand, those articles would have scared me off. They didn't paint a pretty picture. It really does suck because if the 1125R was a little better sorted out, it very well might have beaten the Ducati in the comparison. That is the kind of publicity that the brand needs. I want to see an American company dominate the American sport-bike market. I don't want Buell to just be "different in every sense." I want them to be "better in every sense." Bill | ||
| Spatten1 |
Damn Bill, well written. | ||
| Regkittrelle |
That doesn't work for me, Blake. You've always been quick to challenge unsupported data/information, and rightfully so. You've made a very broad assertion based upon a "trusted source." You would not allow that from a contributor. Why should it be accepted from you? | ||
| Iamike |
Spike-My point exactly. Scott-I own both bikes mentioned and see some of those problems. I wonder if the moto mags have a tendency to overlook 'those little issues' since they are their vaunted special bikes. I rode my '99 S3 63,000mi. before moving on. I would have bought another Buell if they would have made one similar to the S3 with the newer engine. | ||
| Tramp |
"I rode my '99 S3 63,000mi. before moving on. I would have bought another Buell if they would have made one similar to the S3 with the newer engine." I've noticed an habitual theme with respect to this concept. I wonder why they didn't do just that?} | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
"I found out where the water was getting in and the zip-tie solution right here on BadWeb." I just bought got black ZIPs tonight. That's a great tip. | ||
| Blake |
I understand Reg. I'd provide the data if I could. I still stand by my source 100%. |
