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Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 06:46 am: | 
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It'd make more sense to offer more low priced models and bring more customers into the brands.
I was thinking closed to the same thing.
Time to bring back some of their "classic" bikes, and compete for the "gas sippers".
^^I threw that one in just because^^
I know around here scooters are selling like mad.
Opinions vary based on experience and perception.
True, very true.
Offering my 2¢ |
Cudajohn
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 06:54 am: |
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So I can still buy a Buell.....right?
Alot of people in alot of places are losing jobs. What can you do? It is getting harder to entice people with free warranties and low interest because of the thing that we're in, what is it called? |
Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 07:31 am: |
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What can you do?
Well, the second I found out that my contract wasn't going to be renewed (after having the contract renewed seven years running), I started eliminating debt, and the debt I couldn't eliminate, I made sure I was set up to pay less (by dumping money into said debt), I couldn't think of anything else to do. It helped that I hate owing money, and do not take any debt light heartedly.
what is it called?
That my friend is according to whom you are asking. |
Glitch
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 07:31 am: |
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So I can still buy a Buell.....right?
ABSOLUTELY! |
Warlizard
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 07:37 am: |
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I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for HD. Maybe it's the lousy customer service? Maybe because they can barely work on my bike? When they do work on it, they always have a problem and bike comes back w/ a half dozen new scratches. Since I have a Buell and didn't spend 25K on a bike, I am treated like a bother. This, even though I have purchased 2 new Buells and a new Sporty from them. I hate even going in there. All they care about is making a buck. I will actually being going to the local Ducati/Sportbike dealer for service from now on. I do feel bad for those employees who actually care. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 11:21 am: |
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If you are willing to try another Buell dealership, you might find better service. There must be more than one in the Chicago area, yes?
We are in a recession? Has our GDP actually receded for two quarters running (the official definition of an economic "recession")? I don't think so. Don't believe much of what you hear on the news or from political pundits; it's mostly just hype and scaremongering to gain attention. Just like the bursting of the dot-com bubble, this current economic predicament will soon pass. |
Chellem
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 01:05 pm: |
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I see more $20k plus bikes on the dealers floors than $10k bikes.
That may be because all the $10,000 ones are sold, leaving the $20K ones as "displays". 
back in 03 where I bought my buell they had a chromed out fat boy on the floor for $28,000
In 2003, H-D was celebrating their 100th Anniversary, and there were LOTS of crazy accessorized Anniversary models, crazy expensive. But that was 5 years ago, and a lot has changed.
But yet this perception remains. We still have new customers who come in believing they have to get on a list to get a Harley. It takes a long time for the perceptions to change.
And believe me, I'm familiar with a lot of H-D corporates problems. Probably more than a lot of you. But I've also been to car dealerships, and been treated MUCH worse. The problem is widespread - service is just getting crappy all over. It's hard to fight. But we still try.
->ChelleM |
Bill0351
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 01:25 pm: |
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I agree with you Blake. I think it will pass fairly quickly. I do kind of worry about the company losing momentum though. For years now, HD has been one of those aspirational things. For a long time they were hard to get too. That made them even more desirable, and kept resale values really high too. On the down side, it also made it possible for bad dealers to get even worse and still keep their doors open. I just worry that once the trend retracts, people won't return in the numbers that were there before the downturn.
Their lineup has never been better, but they are still in the Lexus/Lincoln level of the motorcycle world. Even though they get good gas mileage, the entry price is too high to attract a lot of new first-time buyers. Or, even if the actually entry price is within range, the perceived price is still too high. What I mean is that people seemed totally surprised that you could get one for $6,000.00. (I paid $500.00 under MSRP for my '05 XL883)
I have a lot of pride in my state and in the USA. I would hate to see one of Wisconsin's oldest companies take a hit and not fully recover.
With the right choices, HD can come out of this even stronger than before. With the wrong ones, it can end up damaged in ways that could take decades to fix. I can't see the MOCO ever going down the toilet, but even circling the drain a little would totally suck for everyone involved.
I think Buell could be key in weathering the storm and then getting the attention of a new generation of riders.
Bill |
Buellinachinashop
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 01:30 pm: |
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It's acceptable for people to ride other cruiser brands now. And after reading some test competitions, HD bikes aren't doing well against the likes of Yamaha and Suzuki.
HD isn't the big bad bully on the block any longer. Its time to re-invent themselves before they out-date themselves out of the market.
How many different baggers do they need?? How many differnet sporties do they need?
Cut the lines, like they did with V-Rod, and let folks accessorize when they have the money to do so.
(Message edited by Buellinachinashop on April 18, 2008) |
Zane
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 01:59 pm: |
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Because of my newcomer status, I’m loath to jump into this thread but buellinachinashop struck a nerve with me. He said:
“How many different baggers do they need?? How many differnet sporties do they need? Cut the lines, like they did with V-Rod, and let folks accessorize when they have the money to do so.”
How much money does HD spend marketing all the different lines they have. But if you look past the chrome, how different are they really? As an example look at the difference between a Road King and a Street Glide. The Road King has that nice windshield and headlight grouping while the Street Glide has the bat wing. But look at the actual bike. From the handlebars aft, it’s the same bike. Same frame, same power plant and tranny, same everything except for a few minor cosmetics. Each line is the same. A few cosmetic changes here and there and they’ve taken 1 bike and turned it into 7 or 8 “models”. Each line is really the same bike with just a different set of bolt ons.
It would have to save a ton of money for HD to only produce 5 bikes instead of 27. How much does HD spend promoting each “model”? Wouldn’t it be better to sale one base model each of the Sporster, Dyna, Softtail, VRCS and Touring and then let us decide what we want on ‘em. You want a faring? That’s an extra $900. Want those bags? Add $1400. We get the bike we want without having to pay for extras we don’t want and HD save marketing money and standardized their production lines. Add to that, the dealers have more stuff to sell and turn a profit on. Seems like a win, win to me.
Edited because even with a spell checker I can't spell.
(Message edited by zane on April 18, 2008) |
Buellinachinashop
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 02:11 pm: |
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Maybe you can't spell, but you can write, great post, welcome. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 03:18 pm: |
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The baby boomer's are getting out of motor cycles, which was H-D core group. Younger people want more modern bikes. H-D is is building bikes that, frankly, younger people don't want. Time to reinvent themselves, or risk going back to the 1980's a the brink of going out of business. |
Xl1200r
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 03:55 pm: |
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HD's are not really overpriced when you compare apples to apples.
Yes, a Sportster is more expensive than a Jap entry-level cruiser, but then again, a Sportster isn't an entry level cruiser. Check the prices yourself because I already know them - but when you compare comperable bikes, you might spend another $1000 or so on the harley on the bottom end.
The SofTail line is the only one I see as being at all overpriced as the difference to a comperable honda reaches a few grand.
Regardless, you can't fault HDI when a dealer takes an $18k Fat Boy and bolts $10,000 worth of crap on it and try to sell it for $35,000 (parts plus labor).
My dealer is FULL of bikes. I'd seriously estimate there are at least 55 new bikes sitting on the floor. It would take less than two hands to count the number of them are priced over $20k.
Anyways, yes, it's better that HD cut 730 jobs, than go bankrupt and cuts thousands later. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 06:55 pm: |
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That was my thought (inside my head) when a friend of a friend told me about a new Honda cruiser he bought. He was talking about features and price, and I was thinking to myself he could have had a Harley that was at least as nice for the same amount. But I'm not a cruiser guy (I like a sportster better then a big twin), so I clearly don't know what I am talking about...
Whenever I read the Cycle World comparisons, the Harley seems to hold it's own fine, both on features and costs. |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 07:15 pm: |
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Funny I just did a three peat with 3 "youngsters" coming off the boat. 1 XL1200N, 1 Used Buell ULy , 1 Used RoadKing
Not a one of them was old enough to drink. Nope, the motorcompany has no attration to the younger crowd at all ;) |
Gtmg
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 08:28 pm: |
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I have a different view. This could either be a real opportunity for HD or a big time miss. Regardless of what people say most cruiser buyers would rather have a HD. They buy Jap bikes because the are CHEAPER and better made with more features. Harley could really put a hurt on other brands if they wanted to buckle down and get really competitive. What would this take??
1. Teach dealers that is easy to get bikes but not customers. Too many dealers in the network refuse to work a deal on bikes. Been to many Jap dealers that are not willing to work a deal with you. They always are! HD dealers refuse and pass on the customer. I cannot sell for less than full price plus a bunch of bs addons and they are bs. Now is not the time to listen to Lemco consulting. Some HD dealers are looking to the future and know this. They are growing others are still living in the past and asking HD to cut back shipments because the floorplan is expensive.
2. Dramatically improve service. Put the effort into the service departments that many have put in to accessories.
3. Improve your manufacturing and lower costs with a passion.Trust me it is still easy to sell against HD on reliability. They are better than ever before but still have about 1.5 x the warranty claims that Jap dealer has. Honda proved this in one recession time buy putting out many different bikes and killing the competition with their LOW COST manufacturing facilities.
4. HD is an American company that was saved by protectionism. It is time to give back a little bit by bringing accessory sources back to the US. To source all the clothes, etc overseas is a true slap in the face. You can look all over the net and see well made American leather products. The big misnomer is that overseas manufacturing is cheaper. Generally labor is less than 20% of the cost, raw materials are the same and with the spiraling cost of diesel fuel foreign manufacturers are not truly lower cost than ones in America. What they are is lower quality!
HD has two strategies right now.
1. Reduce costs and production to meet demand via layoffs and plant closures and continue to lose market share and sales to your competitors world wide. Yes I know HD has the largest market share. This is about the future.
2. Ramp up production, change their sales model in dealerships, invest in alternate models such as Buell and the Vrod line to attract new buyers, commit to being American made(will continue to become a bigger and bigger issue as the recession lingers) and truly become a LOW COST producer that dominates the motorcycle market globally. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 08:40 pm: |
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Nope, the motorcompany has no attration to the younger crowd at all ;)
Generally speaking, I'd say 100% true. |
Bill0351
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 09:12 pm: |
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http://investor.harley-davidson.com/demographics.c fm?HDCWPSession=DT1yLJCJGr2vvRh147Y8Pn33L0Jft6LpCn FqvBzMpQGCJlPbbsMw!322710663!1711370442&locale=en_US&bmLocale=en_US
I don't know if that link will work or not. I hope so, it's good information.
You can always find anecdotes of young people buying a HD, but "median age" statistic keeps moving steadily up. The average income level has remained relatively static. Sales to women have been static also, or even dropped slightly.
Statistically, the people who buy a HD are older guys with money.
It's the same sort of statistics that made Toyota nervous enough to introduce Scion. No company wants to see its buyers heading off toward retirement and not being replaced.
Even City's anecdote shows one Sportster and two used bikes. Good used sales keep resale higher, but don't do much for the people being laid off.
HD could be just hitting an economy induced bump in the road, or it could really be in trouble.
To me the numbers don't look all that good. The stock price shows investors don't think it looks good either.
The right moves could set them up for another 15-20 years of great performance. The wrong ones could be disastrous.
Bill |
Cityxslicker
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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There are cycles in every economy. Your bad deal is somebody else's good deal. Look no further than Wall Street for examples daily. People are still buying bikes. My numbers are on parr with the numbers from 2004/2005/2006 & 2007 (2003 was gonzo forgetta bout it) I am down two bikes compared on a monthly roll as of todays date. I would bet by the end of the month that my numbers are at or equal to 2006 if not 2007. Remember HIGH gas prices drive people to motorcycles too. I see it every day. And locally, 1/3 of my customers are women; I dont care what the national average is, I dont get paid on that. Just gotta be more creative, inventive, excited and informative about the bikes. People are still buying bikes, for all the reasons they have always bought them. You only live once, ride often. PS it snowed here today, I still got a bike out . |
Warlizard
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 09:59 pm: |
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Pay as much if not more attention to the customer AFTER the sale. Care about the customer even if no commission is involved. When a bike is brought in for service, treat as your own. I'll never forget when I stopped in for an oil change. I happen to look in the service bay and who is doing my oil change? 2 Puerto Rican porters. They have this huge aluminum container that they are pouring the oil from. I can see oil running down the side and pooling on the ground. They are banging that monstrous container against the bike. I am paying 80$ an hour for 2 Puerto Ricans? Scratches all over the side panel as well as oil everywhere. Level wasn't even close. Thats just one incident. They act like they are doing you a favor by even working on your bike! I see guys pull in on their chromed out Fat Boy and they are all over them. Can't do enough for them. Blake mentioned that I could go to another dealer? Very true, I certainly could, but isn't this a problem in itself? If I can't get good service from the dealer I bought 3 bikes from, what will the dealer who doesn't know me do? I get tired of the whining about aftermarket parts. Who cares where I got it? Don't use the fact that HD didn't make it to gouge me on labor. I may have just been unlucky, but if this treatment is commonplace, it's no wonder buyers are going elsewhere. |
Chellem
| | Posted on Friday, April 18, 2008 - 10:38 pm: |
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Too many dealers in the network refuse to work a deal on bikes. Been to many Jap dealers that are not willing to work a deal with you. They always are! HD dealers refuse and pass on the customer. I cannot sell for less than full price plus a bunch of bs addons and they are bs.
Working a deal may be what some people want or expect. Here's the thing. Despite what everyone thinks, dealers are still on allocation. That means, at this point, H-D still dictates exactly how many bikes we are allowed to get (that's New bikes, obviously, not used). So while a Jap company, who can get as many bikes as they want, can deal or lose money on the deal, H-D dealers can't make it up on the next one. There may not be a next one. There's no volume-vs-markup game here to be played. And BTW, the MSRP on a bike is the same whether you're in the middle of nowhere, with really low cost of living, or in the NY market with a cost of living that's out of control. We all pay the same, and MSRP is the same.
And as someone above said, these bikes are still viewed as a premium. Agree or disagree with the quality, the chrome, the whatever, that is what these bikes represent to a lot of people - the culmination of a lifelong dream. Once the H-D becomes just another bike to "get a deal on", then that's just not true anymore.
Do Jap bike dealerships have big events with bands and free food and clowns and cakes and demo trucks and dyno shootouts and bike washes and bike shows and blah blah blah? I just spent about 5 minutes googling local honda dealerships, and of the top 5 on google, all of the websites had events calendars, and all but one were COMPLETELY BLANK for the next 3 months. The only Honda dealership around here that really has events probably only does because one of the owners used to be a Harley dealer.
You can't do that kind of stuff AND make deals. That would be the first thing to go, probably, and that would be a shame. Probably not to folks here, but to a lot of people.
I'm not saying that all Harley dealers are great. Obviously that's not the case. But it's still more fun to go to a Harley dealer than a car dealership (at least, for Harley people - maybe not for Buellers - unless you come to Liberty!) and if H-D doesn't do something, then that's what dealers will be. Just like used car lots.
And you think we all suck now.
->ChelleM |
Gtmg
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 11:14 am: |
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Despite what everyone thinks, dealers are still on allocation
Have to disagree with this in some ways. You can always get bikes from dealers who are struggling and ask the factory for more bikes. I would bet 90% of the time you are able to source the bike you need to put on the showroom.
The parties etc are nice but are there to draw customers in and create sales mainly in accessories. Not all Harley dealer do this either. Just the big ones normally. What is probably more similar to the Jap dealers is when they bring in their dirt bike, watercraft racing team etc...}
(Message edited by gtmg on April 19, 2008) |
Chellem
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 11:24 am: |
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Have to disagree with this in some ways. You can always get bikes from dealers who are struggling and ask the factory for more bikes.
Have to disagree with this. No matter how much other dealers are "struggling," they are suprisingly unwilling to just give their bikes to other dealers, BECAUSE of the way H-D decides who deserves more bikes. Most are willing to SWAP, but very few are willing to just give the bikes to another dealer. It's still better to sell the bike to a potential customer than to just send it to another dealership.
And it is NOT as simple as just asking for the bikes from the factory. Without going into specifics, there are complicated formulas and many hoops dealers must jump through to get more bikes. There is still an allocation system in place right now, and will be for the foreseeable future.
The parties are ONE way to draw in customers, but they are primarily just that - parties - and will be given up for other, less costly and more efficient means of marketing and promotions if the margins erode. And almost all dealers have something at least once or twice a year, some with smaller events monthly. We have events monthly during the riding season. Almost always with at least free food. And at least one annual event with a band, and food, and demo trucks and whatever else.
->ChelleM |
Warlizard
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 11:44 am: |
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I remember the day when Harley didn't need parties or gimmicks to sell bikes. The bikes sold themselves. I can't see how a party/event would help sales anyway. You are just gonna draw freeloaders looking for a meal. Before I bought my Sporty I went to one of those events. It consisted of about 50 people, most of whom lacked basic hygene and were obviously not there looking to BUY anything. A lot of them carrying as many free hotdogs as they could. I felt very out of place( I had actually bathed ) and left after a few minutes. I would rather shop for things when the store has as few people as possible, no matter what the product. |
Dynasport
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 04:03 pm: |
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It's interesting to see the varied opinions on the condition, future, and best moves to make for HD in today's economy.
Many points have been made here. Some I agree with, some I don't know about, and some I am pretty sure are wrong.
One that is conventional wisdom that I think is wrong is that HD has no attraction to younger buyers. I have a 20 year old son. He loves the Nightster and the Vrod. One of his best friends rides an old Sportster. And I do mean rides, not just owns. And today a young girl (early 20s maybe) approached me and asked me what kind of Harley I have (I had own a HD t-shirt). She went on to tell me her brother is in MMI and has just started the HD portion. He is planning to buy a Nightster when he graduates. So, while most of the guys buying HDs are us old farts, there are still young guys interested in them. The main thing keeping many young people away is the price. HD needs to market the Sportsters better to let people know they can get one for in the ballpark of a metric bike.
I also do not believe the metric cruisers are better made. I have friends who ride them and they seem to have just as many issues as HD does, which is not many.
And in spite of everything, while sales may be off some, they are still selling bikes. I was in my local dealership today to test ride the 1125 and get my Buell Hydrator, and while the showroom was definitely slower than I normally see it on Saturdays, the finance guy was doing the paperwork on a sale while I was filling out the Buell survey required for the hydrator.
I think Harley will be OK. Many companies are experiencing a slowdown right now.
Time to ride.
Dan |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 04:20 pm: |
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And at least one annual event with a band, and food, and demo trucks and whatever else.
Yes; and it's one hell of a Good Time. I travel 200 miles to attend it. |
Rainman
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 04:48 pm: |
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I hope it will be short economic downturn or recession or banana or whatever we want to call it. In the media business, I've seen drastic change involving huge layoffs, massive budget cuts and to-the-bone cuts that will forever change how the media looks and operates, whether TV, newspaper or radio. Most of that is because profits have dropped considerably and shareholders and stockholders have their panties in a twist.
If Harley can not panic and position itself to be ready when the economy improves, those jobs will come back. It's hard to believe many of the jobs in my industry will back, however. |
Court
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 07:19 pm: |
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>>>Yes; and it's one hell of a Good Time. I travel 200 miles to attend it.
Big deal. I've got a friend who drove 1,000 to play for it! . . . jumped in a rented truck and drove all night to get home.
It's a great gig.
HD's and Buell are very much about the associations and the fellowship among owners
But then . . . what do I know . . . just returned from Massachusetts.
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Chellem
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2008 - 10:42 pm: |
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Thanks Court and Crusty.
We love you too. 
Seriously, Court, it's been too long! Hope everything's good with you and yourn . . . I know, everyone's busy.
You guys should come by next Saturday. Get something Dyno'd.
->ChelleM |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 07:21 am: |
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Michelle:
I may try to slip by next Saturday. It has been incredibly busy. I just finished two term papers, have a presentation this Thursday night and the my final "coup de Court" the "The Logic of Legal Evidence and Discovery" on May 5th!
Also shuttling to and from from Topeka, with my sister's condition being grave and the impact on 78 year old Ma Canfield.
We've got our own major celebration this week as the SCU hits a watermark birthday! Gift arrived from her East Troysian SCU Counterpart yesterday to make sure the day is fun! Erik and I married far above our stations in life. . . . thank goodness for the gals we have our male model looks!
Nothing to dyno . . . my Buell's in Colorado and it'd look bad if I arrived on a BMW or Suzuki.  )
But . . . . I'm eager to see the kids so I'll likely arrive, camera at the ready, looking for kidlets!
Best to all and thank your Dad for the quick help last week.
Court |
Warlizard
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 09:05 am: |
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Court - My regards to your sister. Hope all turns out well. |
Court
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 11:00 am: |
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Thank you. Tough time and I appreciate your kind words. |
Mmmi_grad
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2008 - 10:51 pm: |
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Harley might be later ok but isnt going to be feeling good anytime soon. Too many years the talk has been going on esp since sept 11 2001.
Just who, how and why are these bikes selling? People that work at dealerships know that the average guy just cant afford it. For years the average guys wages have stayed the same or is looseing money to this changing economy.
Harleys mistake is that they think they can keep ramping up the price of bikes. Now I know they havent gone up alot year after year but something else is happening. More and more compitition, the discust of bikers who want to buy the bikes, wreck them, build them or whatever has become known. Absolutely no care or concern about the 20 something crowd. I would bet a weeks pay that nothing has been done to cut costs. Supply and demand economics dont work at HD either. A flood of bikes on the market hasnt concerned them for years it seems to me.
So the chickens really have come home to roost.
Personally, after owning a Panhead for 20 years and a X1 for 3 years I can still count on my two hands how many official licened clothing I own. I currently do not own a t shirt that fits me that says Harley Davidson on it. I cant remember when I last got one either. I love the bikes, and what its really about but it seems that the majority who didnt know that found out. It aint about a kitchen full of macoroni and cheese, a high insurance bill, a huge bike payment and a fear of the next trip to the dealership about an issue or ANYTHING.
Its about riding the bike. Untill HD can come back down to earth after hitting the goal of 200000 bkes in a year in 2000 and start helping people actually ride a bike and get reasonable support doing it. HD is on a bad trip going down the wrong road.
Corporate mistake number 1 Lets take there money and we dont care who doesnt like it.
They aint buying it, what now?
Solution.
Dont charge more for something. Get more people to buy what you have.
One last thing, with all the talk about gas prices and saving the world from the evil burning oil. I think its an danm shame that Harley cant even say a feaking thing to the public about buying and owning a Harley out of economical or even a crappy blurb about climate change. Whats even more alarming is the goverments ignorance about motorcycles in general as an alternative to a gas gusaling SUV. Where are those environmental whackos at? Are they riding Harleys?
(Message edited by mmmi_grad on April 20, 2008) |
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