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Buell Motorcycle Forum » Quick Board Archives » Archive through October 29, 2003 » ;[ AMA Pro Racing Seeks to Please Japanese Benefactors » Archive through August 11, 2003 « Previous Next »

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Sportsman
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Man Jose' you've been thinking about this. I just miss the Lightning races, 95 hp and you knew the guy that blew by you was a better rider. Not much room for excuses.
After reading the article in Cycle world, it wouldn't suprise me if next year XB12's had to run with the 600's in CCS/FUSA which turns it into expensive again. They are going to kick alot of SV butt otherwise.
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
This is ridiculous. I'll re-explain... :/

AMA Superbike Rules for 2004 propose... One single displacement limit, 1000cc's no matter the engine configuration, allowed levels of performance modifications all being identical. Displacement, and displacement alone defines the class.

AMA Supersport... A class also defined solely and completely by... displacement.

FUSA... Based upon displacement??? :? Lemme see... Various displacement limits within each class depending on engine configuration. some HP limited. Not in any way defined solely by displacement.

Which of the above most closely resemble "complete and utter fixation on displacement"? rolleyes
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Blake
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
RRW analysis of AMAPR...

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6862

I wonder what the participation in FUSA is doing?
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Sportsman
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
FUSA needs to crack a deal with speedvision right now and AMAPR would die a lonely death. TV time=factory riders. Factory riders=priemier class racing. If Briggs and Stratton mowers were getting TV time, Toro would build something better. Racing is marketing, but AMAPR is looking like an infomertial for inline 4's. FUSA, your time is now.
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José_quiñones
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
quote:

The new Superbike formula has definitely brought the field closer together. The gap has closed between the privateer and factory teams. The biggest difference is the cost. Before, even if you could buy the parts, it was very expensive to field a competitive Superbike. That left the smaller teams to race 750 Superstock machines and they had nowhere near the horsepower to be competitive. With the new rules a team can buy a bike and do fairly light modification and have trap speeds within a few miles per hour of the factory bikes.


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Rick_a
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Mowers have had TV time...haven't you seen the mower races on TNN? Hasn't seemed to have done a whole lot for them
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Sportsman
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
The inlines are getting to be more affordable to race compettitively with the factory that makes them. So.... I dunno what that means, but at least racing is getting closer.
Check out the new John Deere, talk about fast

edited by sportsman on August 01, 2003
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Blake
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
JQ,
I agree, the 2003 rules are great for evening the field between factory and privateer IL4 Superbikes in AMAPR. However, the 2004 rules, the new rules, the ones that instigated this whole thread, are a completely different matter both wrt privateers AND the fairness to twin cylinder superbike machines. You agree?
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Crusty
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Nope.
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Imonabuss
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Yeah, Jose, the field is real close...Shawn is the leading privateer and he is getting lapped! The reason the privateers are finishing higher is because there are hardly any factory riders.
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José_quiñones
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 08:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
No, it's because the performance gap is closer this year than before, at a lower cost, like Shawn said above.

Did you even read what he said? Or you just don't want to believe it?

Next year's rules will be the same as this year for the IL4's so that situation will not change, Blake, but there will be some factory and privateer R1's, ZX10's and RCB1000's out there along with the Suzukis.

We'll see how the "adjust" the rules for the twins. If Aprilia and Ducati show commitment to the FIM/BSB/AMA combined rules, I'm sure they will be "rewarded".
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Blake
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Not according to AMAPR. Have they changed their minds? The liter fours will be limited in some ways where the twins are not? Cause last I heard, they were opening up the liter fours to the same exact tech rules governing the twins. That has changed?
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Imonabuss
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Jose,

I don't care what Shawn said, I care about the facts. Fact is he's getting lapped. When all the factories were involved, guys in his finishing position were not being lapped.

AMA Superbike racing in the US is becoming club racing...except to belong to the club you need an inline 1000cc Suzuki. "Ooooh, cool, eighth place and I got lapped in a 50 mile race!" Sure, and maybe you'll get to smell Mladin's jock strap as you get lapped. I'm all aquiver with the excitement of it all.

Boring......... Pro Thunder was wayyyy more exciting when it was around, and FUSA Sportbike is more exciting today.
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José_quiñones
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
No, it's the other way around, they proposed limiting all bikes, twins included, to the same level currently allowed to the 2003 1000cc IL4's.
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José_quiñones
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
The FACT is that Jason Pridmore on a "privateer" Suzuki finshed SECOND at both Superbike races at Mid Ohio, beating every other Factory rider, including Aaron Yates on his FACTORY Suzuki, who normally owns Mid-Ohio.

The FACT is that the IL4 companies, particularly Suzuki, offer lots of contingency money, so most privateer racers follow the money available.

The FACT is that the fans buy a lot more IL4 600's and 1000's than they do twins, so the rules all around the world reflect that FACT.

The fact is that these same fans go to the AMA races, not to the FUSA races.

Why the ill will towards Suzuki? The FACT is that they have designed, built and sell the most dominating Street based Race Replica available today, it's up to the other manufacturers to play catch up.

If Buell does not want to play that game then stop the whining.


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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Either way the twins are toast. No way a twin can match the performance of an equally modified and equal displacement IL4. It is a supremely stupid rule no matter which way it is implemented.

Suzi just happened to already have a liter four Superbike waiting in the wings. Of course it is doing well against liter twins. D'UH! Twins that used to race quite competitively against 750cc fours. Yeah, I think an extra 33% displacement ought to put the IL4's ahead of the twins. DUH! Again, the whole point of this thread. AMAPR is killing the twins in SB, basically mandating IL4's for all classes, basically becoming a replica of the All Japan series in Nipponland. This is friggin America last time I checked. Let them all race or change the name of the series. Change the name to "All Japan Motorcyclists Association Pro Racing" (AJMAPR) and see how long it lasts. It would die a very fast death in America.
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Rocketman
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
The Suzuki is not dominating anything yet and Ducati will up its game in WSB to remain competitive. Then again they might not have to if Suzuki carry out their rumoured boycott over the control tyre issue, in which case the Alstare and Corona Teams are said to be maybe running in the BSB or AMA series.

Rocket
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Imonabuss
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Yeah, Jason was on a "private" bike. Sure.

BTW, Check out RRW on the "availability" of the "homologated" kit swingarms for GSXR's...now available after 9 of 11 events...classic version of the AMA lookling the other way for factory teams.
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Blake
Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Link to Suzi swingarm post on RRW...

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6945
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Blake
Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
FUSA brings parity to dirt track...

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6957

AMAPR new dirt track rules...

http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=6961

Note the logic behind allowing the Blast to use aftermarket chassis... Why not allow the same type of consideration in road racing classes, you know... to promote parity among many different brands.

I'm curious, does a 500cc Blast engined racer have a chance against a four valve CFR450R on a short track?
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Crusty
Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
I've seen the Blast at a National. It doesn't have enough to do the job.
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Blake
Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
That's what I thought. AMAPR is apparently unable to devise a single set of class rules that would promote parity among different configurations of engines. I wonder why. :/
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Imonabuss
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Big surprise, huh, Blake.
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Crusty
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
quote:

AMAPR is apparently unable to devise a single set of class rules that would promote parity among different configurations of engines. I wonder why.


Why should they? KTM, Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda and Vor(who?) can and do build competitive bikes. Buell could, too.
The main difference is that all the others are based on race bikes, while the Blast is based on a street bike. The Blast is a much better bike for the street; it's got the right powerband, and will endure for half a million miles. The others won't make 50K, even if they're babied. It's the same problem that Suzuki has vs. the XR750s. The XR is a pure racing machine. Its whole existence is to be the best thing available for going fast on a dirt oval. The only thing that ever really challenged it was the RS750 Honda - another purpose built race bike. The TL based dirt tracker makes more horsepower, but it has a lot of trouble using it to make the bike work.
If Buell really wants to be competitive, they're going to have to build a competitive engine. I don't think the bean counters at HDI will see that as an economically justifiable option.
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Grndskpr
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Big surprise, huh, Crusty
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José_quiñones
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Blake,

The proposed 2004 AMA 505cc rules are basically a copy of the current FUSA singles rules, so I find it amusing that you could find issue with the AMA rules and approve of the FUSA rules when they are essentially the SAME rules.

Both try to bring Dirt Track racing back to production based bikes, and both give Blast powered bikes similar "considerations" in the rules to help them be competitive.

The HD Race Team is campaigning the Blast powered XR500 bike in the FUSA and AMA series, with mixed results. Converted dirt bikes are currently the hot setup in the short track and TT events. Honda's dominated this weekend's FUSA event in Kansas.

Blake and Harvey Mushman have a blatant anti AMA Bias? Big surprise, huh?

________________________________________________________________

BTW, congratulations to Mike Ciccoto on his Third place in the FUSA sportbike race & second in Thunderbike, Dave Estok for his Thunderbike win in Kansas, and to Nallin Racing's Scott Scherb for winning the 883 Class in Hagerstown, MD Saturday night.

The Suzukis struggled at the slick Hagerstown track, you could clearly see them sliding and not hooking up compared to the XR750's.

It was also funny to see Joe Kopp and Kenny Coolbeth riding in their KTM leathers while riding..... XR750's. I asked Joe about that after the race and he said they would be on the 950 Duke powered bike next year. Looking forward to that.

edited by josé_quiñones on August 10, 2003
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Imonabuss
Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Yep, Buell's focus is on great streetbikes, not on race bikes built for spec classes. And, more importantly, who can blame them?

The AMA rules are unbelievably biased. Try to follow this logic...In their Grand National dirt track class they put "race-only" motors, ie. the Harley-Davidson XR-750, against "street bike based" 1000cc water-cooled four-valves like the Aprilia and the Suzuki. Then they turn around and make 500cc production streetbike two valve air cooled single (the Buell Blast) race against 450cc water-cooled four-valve pure racing engines like the YZF-450 and CR-450F. IMHO, proof once again of Blake's hypothesis. Totally in the pocket of the Japanese, and against Harley-Davidson and Buell.}

Check out the results from Topeka FUSA this weekend. Too bad the AMA is so screwed; with a fair formula around horsepower, Buell does the job pretty well. And there's lots of competition doing well too. This horsepower based stuff is neat; look at how many different configurations are running against one another!

From Roadracing World - (BTW, if you want to follow racing, this is THE place to go)

Thunderbike:
Estok started the 15-lap Thunderbike final from pole position on his Kosco Harley-Davidson/Buell Firebolt XB9R, grabbed the holeshot, built an instant lead over Ciccotto, Dan Bilansky and Bryan Bemiderfer and ran away to an easy win.

Bilansky rode well enough to cross the finish line in second place but was found to be 0.1 horsepower over his allowable amount in post-race checks. Bilansky was docked three finishing positions to fifth. Ciccotto, who rode a virtually stock XB9R Buell Firebolt fitted with development chassis parts, was scored second ahead of Harding Harley-Davidson/Buell’s Bemisderfer.

Results -
1. Dave Estok (Buell XB9R), 15 laps
2. Mike Ciccotto (Buell XB9R)
3. Bryan Bemisderfer (Buell XB9R)
4. Darren James (Buell XB9R)
5. Dan Bilansky (Buell XB9R)
6. Walt Sipp (Buell 1200)
7. Joseph Rozynski (Buell 1200)
8. Brian Lacy (Suz SV650)
9. Ray Bowman (Suz GSX-R750)
10. Keith Brewer (Hon CBR600)
11. Steve Haesemeyer (Hon CBR600), -1 lap
12. Greg Avello (Buell XB9R), -1 lap
13. Rhiannon Lucente (Hon CBR600), -1 lap
14. Ed Key (Suz SV650), -4 laps, DNF, mechanical
15. Richie Morris (Buell 1200), -9 laps, DNF, retired
16. Jeff Harding (Buell XB9R), -10 laps, DNF, crash
17. Jeff Johnson (Buell 1200), -11 laps, DNF, mechanical
18. Steve Kessenich (Suz GSX-R750), -12 laps, DNF


Sportbike:
Wait and Greenwood waged a hard-fought Yamaha-versus-Yamaha war for 23 laps of the 29-lap Sportbike feature event. Each rider led and each admitted to making mistakes during the race, but Greenwood’s mistake came last, leaving him with no time to recover.

Kneedraggers.com Yamaha’s Wait won by 2.6 seconds over Argo Cycles/Bettencourts’ Greenwood. Hal’s Performance Advantage Buell’s Mike Ciccotto scored his first-ever F-USA Sportbike podium on the Buell Firebolt XB9R with third. Nate “Gator” Wait held off 4&6 Racing’s Larry Denning, Arclight Suzuki’s Scott Harwell and Hooters Suzuki’s Michael Himmelsbach for fourth. Young Nicky Cummings finished eighth in the Sportbike road race after placing third in the F-USA Pro Singles dirt track race Saturday night at Heartland Park’s dirt venue. Harwell’s teammate Dave Stanton and Dave Rosno rounded out the top 10 in the final results.

Results -
1. Matt Wait (Yam YZF-R6), 29 laps
2. Scott Greenwood (Yam YZF-R6)
3. Mike Ciccotto (Buell XB9R)
4. Nate Wait (Kaw ZX-6R)
5. Larry Denning (Yam YZF-R1)
6. Scott Harwell (Suz GSX-R600)
7. Michael Himmelsbach (Suz GSX-R600)
8. Nicky Cummings (Hon CBR600RR)
9. Dave Stanton (Suz GSX-R600)
10. Dave Rosno (Yam YZF-R6), -1 lap
11. Kevin Gordon (Suz GSX-R600), -1 lap
12. Jason Smith (Yam YZF-R6), -2 laps, crash
13. Bryan Bemisderfer (Buell XB-9R), -2 laps
14. Logan Myers (Yam YZF-R6), -2 laps
15. Michael Shaun Fields (Yam YZF-R6), -9 laps, DNF, crash
16. Jamie Thompson (Yam YZF-R6), -10 laps, DNF
17. Scott Stevens (Suz GSX-R600), -16 laps, DNF
18. Rob Pearson (Kaw ZX-6R), -18 laps, DNF
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Court
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 05:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
Well...I lack you guys fluency in the rules of sanctioning bodies but I have to say that after years of riding Buells on the street, I love seeing a bike built for the street ahead of the CBR's, GSXR, and adimportium others.

Speaks volumes for the Buell as a complete package.

I hope they continue building street bikes....call it a personal bias.

:)

Court
(Dying to get my hands on an XB12 ! )
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José_quiñones
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
quote:

Then they turn around and make 500cc production streetbike two valve air cooled single (the Buell Blast) race against 450cc water-cooled four-valve pure racing engines like the YZF-450 and CR-450F. IMHO, proof once again of Blake's hypothesis. Totally in the pocket of the Japanese, and against Harley-Davidson and Buell



No, proof of your predictable, reactionary anti AMA bias. Are they still waiting for your apology?

Let's try it one more time: Those are the SAME rules that FUSA Dirt Track races with. The XR500 Blast races in both series against those same bikes.

So if you have a problem with the AMA Singles Dirt Track rules being biased, you should also have a problem with the FUSA Singles Dirt Track rules, because they are the SAME.

In fact, FUSA has a higher minimum weight for non stock frame based bikes, so you could even argue that their rules are slanted toward the MX'ers.

The AMA has a 883 Sportster only dirt track class and allow Buells wishing to road race to be waived from the homologation and claiming requirements that every other manufacturer has to adhere to.

Whose pocket are they in?
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Blake
Posted on Monday, August 11, 2003 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)
AMA... American Motorcyclist Association. Emphasis on American. :/

My commment wrt AMAPR that you choose not to comprehend was...

"AMAPR is apparently unable to devise a single set of class rules that would promote parity among different configurations of engines. I wonder why."

FUSA has a plethora of classes where they have devised fair and equitable rules to promote parity among the WIDEST variety of engine configurations.

You are holding up the 883 AMA dirt class as evidence of a bias in AMAPR? That's a complete laugh. Don't worry, the way things are going, it will soon be gone too.

Buells (1350cc) wishing to road race... against what? Liter IL4s? Whose pocket are they in? The Japs! Anyone who thinks otherwise is blind or a complete fool.
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