| Author |
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Jim_m
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 02:39 pm: | 
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Bluzm2,
the XS650s make good looking street trackers IMO.
The S1 is a brute of a streetfighter (the more I see them, the more I like the slimmer tanks on them too) |
Gonen60
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
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Dealers agree to sell Buells because they get whats called "shield points". By caring Buell they get alloted a bigger stock of HD bikes. I think once they see the cost and hassle of training people and caring buell parts, coupled with the small percentage of Buell sales, they opt out, and decide not to carry. Out of the 700 state side HD dealerships, I believe 250 carry buell, and it sounds like the number is dropping. Buell's production plant, I am told is very small.40,000 SQ ft. If every HD dealer carried Buell, Buell could not meet supply demands. Plus it would just mean more Buells built and not sold.
Imagine every dealer keeping 5 belts in stock for the XBs,700 dealers, 5 belts=3,500 total. Buell doesn't make them, because the dealers want stock them. same with the race kits. I think Buells in trouble, when looking at the long run. sport bikes getting more and more popular. HD has the engine and the money, we will see what happens. also, who owns the Buell patents (frame, swing arm,etc..) I would say eric Buell does, but not sure. HDs not going to build a "behind the times" sportbike, so I bet HDs working with another outside company designing a new innovative sportbike. The engines there..V-ROD...if the VR1000 lives, Buell will not survive. My thought is, Buell should team up with a new engine and build the true american superbike, why he has not done this so far is beyond me. |
Jim_m
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 02:53 pm: |
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"The engines there..V-ROD...if the VR1000 lives, Buell will not survive."
but the VRod is not the VR1000 engine. It is based from it. For HD to be serious about a sport bike application, they would need to create a new derivative of the VR1000.
I think Buell is OK as they are aimed at a market that HD does not seem interested in directly servicing at this time. We'll see how the new Sporty turns out, but if HD really wants to go after the sportbike market, I think they'll go through Buell first.
Now, a VMax beater, HD could put out, as well as a street tracker version. They both have enough HD history behind them to fit in the HD product line up (the Nova and, of course, their dirt trackers).
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99buellx1
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:06 pm: |
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The Nova Project, oh what could have been.
Its hard to imagine what Harley would be if they had gone to production, making the "V-Max" before Yamaha. Oh, to dream and wonder. 
Craig
Buell Cycle Center
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Jim_m
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:36 pm: |
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Should have happened 20 years ago, but I can understand why they went with the Evolution motor instead.
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Nevco1
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:51 pm: |
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Tried and True Cash Cows are hard to kick in the ass. Thus the Evo was the best decision at the time. I still hope that Buell continues with the sport bike philosophy and that HD into's a stylin' performance bike. |
Bluzm2
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
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Jim,
That's the bike I was talking about.
Omar Little is an acquaintance from long ago.
Here's a pic from his site. I have a 650 lined up for a "project" bike.
I have to wait a while as I bought too many bikes lately.
My wife (bless her heart) is about to divorce me, so I better hold off a bit...
Check ou this web site http://www.omarsdtr.com/street14.html
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Jst
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:00 pm: |
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Brad,
I've wanted to build one of those for a few years. Decent Yam. 650s are getting real hard to find. I've even considered 500s. I've decided on Omar's stuff if I ever find a suitable donor bike.
JT |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:17 pm: |
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jst -- if you're lookin for a 500 (as in Yamaha SR500) gimme a shout . . .. my thumper's on the block . . . nicely cafed, engine hot-rodded, and 80% of a spare bike just waiting for a good home |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:33 pm: |
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I get a chance to talk to high level people at Harley and Buell fairly frequently. Buell is not going away, and Harley is not about to build sportbikes (whatever name you want to attach to them) that intrude on Buell's market. Most of the grumbling to the contrary is from people who don't have a clue about what Harley's upper management is thinking. Don't hold your breath for something from Harley that will run with a XB12 on a road with curves; do expect Buell to continue to expand its range, and with engines that continue to move away from Harley roots.
As for Harley dealers dropping Buell, I think you could make an argument that more of them should, particularly the ones not willing to put in the effort to support the brand and the bikes. Buell has some phenomenally successful dealers, and a number of reasonably incompetent or uninterested ones, as many posts on this board indicate. I've been told that Buell has gone to a turn-and-earn allocation scheme, where the good dealers will be rewarded with product, and the ones that aren't selling bikes won't get many. And they continue to look for good dealers, or to help marginal ones move into the good category. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:21 pm: |
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>>>Dealers agree to sell Buells because they get whats called "shield points".
That's not an ENTIRELY accurate statement. The term you are searching for is "Bar and Shield". I know because my dealer, Topeka, KS, has more than any dealership IN THE WORLD.
Although (the TRUE part of the statement) a dealer can advance his "Bar & Shield" cause though carrying Buells, it would never (the FALSE part of your statement) be enough to warrant carrying Buells or tip an "on the fence" dealer.
>>>Buell is not going away, and Harley is not about to build sportbikes (whatever name you want to attach to them) that intrude on Buell's market.
That's a VERY accurate statement that I can back up based on conversations with Rich Teerlink. I'd also add the part about the V-Rod never going in a Buell but then someone would demand my sources.
Court
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Bluzm2
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:35 pm: |
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I had an interesting comment made by my HD parts dude today.
I had him look up a part number for a 2000 X1 (rear turn signal). He said the number was superseded with a new one. Then he said Buell was changing all their part numbers again.
What gives?
Didn't they just finish switch from the old Buell numbering system to the HD version?
Is it possible that they are moving away from HD numbering to make it easier for standalone shops?
Just curious.
Any dealer, anony's or a Court types know?
Brad
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Gonen60
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 08:37 pm: |
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I thing it's cool you can own a Buell dealership outside of a HD dealership. I have never seen just a Buell shop, has anyone else?
""do expect Buell to continue to expand its range, and with engines that continue to move away from Harley roots""
Has Buell even made a step away from it's HD roots, when it comes to engines?
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Glitch
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:06 pm: |
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If the reason Buell is going to die is the need for parts, then I don't think they'll die. If Buell sales were so good they sold them all, and were making more, don't you think they could keep parts up with demand? If the market demands it, someone will sell it, Buell has the stuff... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:24 pm: |
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Gonen60,
You have no idea what you are talking about. |
Mower_jockey
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:36 pm: |
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I do not know too many dye in the wool Harley guys that like the V Rod. In some ways I think it would be better to have the V Rod as Buells cruiser line. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 10:15 pm: |
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HD is smart enough to see that the sport bike movement is the new guard, and the whole chopper thing is fading. The new generation wants speed and race type bikes
Gonen....I dont know about where you live, but around here the Chopper "thing" is just getting started. Even last year I might have seen 2 so-called choppers, now all of a sudden this year there are quite a few brand new chopper bikes...although for the life of me I cant figure out how a brand new store bought bike loaded with tons of chrome & billet could ever be considered a real chopper. |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 10:16 pm: |
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quote:Has Buell even made a step away from it's HD roots, when it comes to engines?
As a tube frame owner, let me give a resounding "hell yes".
In 15k miles, I have had the top, bottom, back, and both sides of that *(#(*$ engine apart multiple times to fix "stupid stuff" like worn oil pump drive gears and leaking rocker box gaskets. I am more the rule then the exception. My Cyclone is spread all over my garage and basement at the moment, awaiting $400 worth of tranny parts. At 15k miles.
Now take a quick tour of the XB sections of this board and listen for engine reliability issues. What's that noise? A pin dropping perhaps?
My engine is an unreliable engine with a lot of character. The XB engines are reliable engines with lots of character. As far as negatives are concerned, it is VERY far from a Harley engine.
I still love my Cyclone, but these XB's ROCK!
Bill |
Aesquire
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 10:25 pm: |
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Honestly, we are lucky as heck here. (Buell fans)
In the Aircraft world, McDonnell (great fighters) merged with Douglas (great airliners). McDonnell didn't understand airliners, and they were in charge, so McDonnell-Douglas went downhill until Boeing bought them. There is precious little left of the proud line that started with the DC-2 and changed the face of a planet.
H-D seems to know NOT to dictate sport bike decisions to Buell, and I really doubt Buell makes decisions on the new Road King.
"you don't know how lucky you are boy" (Beatles)
If that kind of brains were at McDonnell-Douglas, DC-15's would be taking us Buellers to Bonneville at mach 4.
"V Rod as Buells cruiser line"??? coooolll! (not going to happen, but still cool) |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 11:31 pm: |
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Yeah, the ready-to-run chopper craze is huge here in FL. It's either that I see or the home-built rat-bikes. |
Blasterd
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:05 am: |
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I'm with you on that Rick. I entered my M2 in a bike show in High Springs (I won first place in the sport category  ) and all around me were choppers! I was the only Buell there out of about 120 bikes.It was funny watching all the Jappers haulin ass outta there when they saw me holding a trophy for best sport bike!
Ken |
Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
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Ask Pammy about winning 'best jap bike' with her X1. |
Vr1203
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:03 am: |
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Daves, you should have known
For those of you interested my HD/Buell dealer killed Buell and is located in Clinton Iowa. |
Docrecon
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:24 am: |
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I'm withcha dude!
Reepicheep sez:
I still love my Cyclone, but these XB's ROCK! |
Daves
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 07:47 am: |
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VR1203,
Well I thought that was you but when I pulled your profile it didn't list a town so I had to try to remember(something that gets harder to do the older I get)
It doesn't surprise me, I had already bought all but one of their bikes already just to keep some on my showroom floor.
You should come up on the 17th of August for BattleTrax III here in Waterloo!
Ride to the edge!
Dave |
Phillyblast
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 08:48 am: |
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Has Buell even made a step away from it's HD roots, when it comes to engines?
Gone - Have you been paying attention the last couple of years? Can you get a Harley with a 984cc engine? See a fake generator on an XB? Trap door? The XB and Blast motors are a huge leap away from the Sporty lump in a lot of ways - don't just look at the obvious stuff, like sure, it's still a 45 twin with pushrods |
Mikej
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:12 am: |
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I think what we're referring to as Choppers are now more often called Customs. Or not. I may post a pic of my old Knucklehead chopper if I ever get it scanned in one of these day, it was a nice ride for it's time. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:19 am: |
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hell, a Moto Guzzi is also a v-twin with pushrods . . . . doesn't make it a harley engine . . . .
I see very few choopers around here (Chicago-Milwaukee), but lots and lots of store bought customs . . . . even more stockers with chrome thingies hanging from them . . .
chopper = bike altered in some meaningful way to make it individual, sometimes by the owner, more often by an indie shop
custom = limited-production bike bought from a business that does this for a living (i.e., Orange County {the definition of "Disfunctional Family, if TV is reality}) |
Jim_m
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:24 am: |
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I like the home made choppers. The ones that take on the builder's likes and personality...by buying a premade one, you lose something (I think).
When I was riding through Weir's Beach I was behind a chopper, flat red, no chrome, a little on the ratty side (the way bikes are suppoed to be ;^D )...the rider had a nice oily rag and a screwdriver in his rear pocket. While we were winding down the main drag, his carb started idling real high, so he whips out the screwdriver and adjusts it on the go (course, the last time I did that, I ended up knocked out, but that's a different story). All I could think was "there goes a real chopper.
IMHO |
Gonen60
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:20 am: |
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I guess the bottom line is, I love my XB9S, But, I wish it was able to compete a little better with the Big 4. When you have a 984cc engine, not producing like a 600cc engine, you can start making excuses all day long. But, bottom line it's not able to compete. I think the XBs look fantastic, sound great, I have had no problems yet, and I ride the piss out of it. But when a honda 600rr can pull on me like there is no tomorrow, that bothers me. Plus the new 600s are just as fast in the corners. I love my Buell, I just wish it was powered by something else. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:44 pm: |
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I find it interesting that people throw out comments and speculation regarding Buell's and HD's success, sales etc. without ever stopping to look at any real numbers. The general impression I would get from reading these boards is that Harley is doing well, but Buell sales are disappointing, dealers are dropping them, and their very survival is in question.
Here's a chart of Buell and Harley Shipments since 1998 straight off the information posted on Harley's web-site(Buell is blue, Harley is purple):
You can see that the Buell chart is less consistent than the Harley chart. This is primarily attributable to their smaller size and limited ability to absorb fluctuations. The two big, recent dips are likely due to switch-over to XB production and switch-over to XB12 production. I would expect a big spike in the third quarter of this year as the XB12's start shipping.
Generally, Buell sales have conistently grown over the years along with Harley. I think most businesses would be very happy to see that kind of sales growth. |
M2cyclone00
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:52 pm: |
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If they are keeping up with you in the corners (& it is not a 140mph sweeper), it's your riding that's making it equal. Not the XBS. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:58 pm: |
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Elvis . . .don't go injecting FACTS into the discussion, fer pete's sake!
sheesh
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Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 05:35 pm: |
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If I sell 22.85 HD units for every 1 Buell unit, where am I going to put my R&D efforts? Mr. Buell must have got somebody really drunk to obtain the commitment that HD has been showing.
or has pictures? |
Bud
| | Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 02:13 am: |
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Speaking off BUELL only dealers,
There’s one, i now off ( bought my bike there )
He trying hard,
But he is a very small fish in the H-D pool,
And allot off time’s treated as one,
By means off, long time waiting for parts ( especially xb race-kit )
He has a feeling that the big H-D/ Buell dealers are somewhat put up front,
In parts designation.
But the effort he had to make is far more heavier, than for a big dealer H-D,
Getting all the special tools and digital technician, ( very big bucks )
For a relatively small number off bike’s. ( 8-12 a year )
The sales mix he has,
I think is just where a buell needs to be sold ( next to triumph’s & moto guzzi’s )
As a fighting brand, not as a by product from the H-D company.
Next to other nice looking, somewhat exotic bike’s
But, as at most things money talks & bull shit walks
A pure and only Buell dealer should be nice,
but the numbers you have sell to make it profitable, is difficult.
Gr,m
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