| Author | Message | ||
     Mm128 |
Johntman, Thanks and How are you doing, Hope all is well. There would be times when you would read Miranda to make sure that a case is "AIR TIGHT"... Example... You do pull over a car. You find a Dead body in the vehicle... You suspect that the individual has committed "OTHER" killings and you believe you have "ARS" (articulable reasonable suspicion)... You would NOT want to just start drilling him w/ ?'s... Miranda WOULD apply and would save you... FLIP SIDE..... Individual as a BOMB in his possession... You have the SAME feeling that he has a ANOTHER bomb in a area that is "POPULATED" and set to go off.. Miranda DOES NOT apply and in SOME aspects you CAN and are LEGAL in obtaining information ANY WAY Necessary. I know it SOUNDS as IF i just said "torture" is legal.. as it is NOT, but..... Measures of pressuring and obtaining the info are of critical need as long as you know FOR sure there is another incident getting ready to occurr. But... YOU BETTER be for SURE !!!!!! -Matt. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Ok, yes, in the most literal sense of the word, an "arrest" is to bring something to a stop... so a traffic stop is an arrest in that way. BUT, in the legal sense, you are not taking anyone into custody during a traffic stop so it's not an arrest at all. Unless of course, you take the subject into custody as a result of what happens during the traffic stop. THEN it is an arrest, not before. You do not get arrested for infractions. They are not jailable offenses in this state. I don't know how it is where you are. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
FLIP SIDE..... Individual as a BOMB in his possession... You have the SAME feeling that he has a ANOTHER bomb in a area that is "POPULATED" and set to go off.. Miranda DOES NOT apply and in SOME aspects you CAN and are LEGAL in obtaining information ANY WAY Necessary. What country do you live in? | ||
| Mm128 |
Ferris, It might suprise you... BUT... Due to 09-11-2001.. There have been certain allowances made to obtain information, BUT ONLY in the dyer of circumstances. If you DONT think this actually goes on then you may want to pay attention to not only the specialized areas of the Armed Forces but ALSO in the presidential debates going on. Better known as "WATERBOARDING". It DOES happen and the techniques are what keep you safe in bed at night. Trust me... There are TERRORIST here and they are planning. If you DONT think the Govt will NOT LEGALLY use methods to obtain information your are sadly mistaken. Matt. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The reading of the Miranda warning is required, "however the police are only required to warn an individual whom they intend to subject to custodial interrogation at the police station, in a police vehicle or when detained. Arrests can occur without questioning and without the Miranda warning — although if the police do change their mind and decide to interrogate the suspect, the warning must then be given." This decision was upheld in Dickerson vs. United States (2000). The reading of Miranda warning is not the indicator of whether you are or are not under arrest. You can be under arrest and NEVER have the Miranda warning read to you. The reason for the Miranda warning is to allow the individual know that their statements could be self incriminating and that they have the right not to answer questions under the 5th Amendment. There is not a "real arrest" and a "lesser arrest". There is merely a detention by police. Police do not need to read you the Miranda warning to obtain basic information (name, date of birth, address, aliases). In this case, the officer didn't need to interrogate the driver because he witnessed the offense. He had the ability to obtain basic information without Miranda. The individual was not arrested because of an "infraction". He was arrested for Failure to Comply which in Utah is an arrestable offense. The driver escalated the incident to an arrestable offense. Because the driver failed to sign the ticket, take his hands from his pocket, failed to place his hands behind his back, and refused to follow the officer's instructions, the officer was correct in arresting him under Utah law. You may not approve of his methodology in completing the compliance portion of the detention, but the legal authority to do so was on the side of the officer. | ||
| Mm128 |
Guys... I am OUT of this debate/conversation... We ALL ride Buells..... SO I LOVE ALL OF YOU !!!!!!!  I am Off to the garage to get the X1 ready for some Fork Replacements and a POLISHED up Swingarm. It was kinda fun explaining all of this... Hope no one hates me.... Trust me the job is really NOT that much fun.... And for $35K a year..... I COULD be using my ACCOUNTING/FINANCE Degree for MORE toys. Yall have a good weekend... Or whats left of it. -Matt. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Not all methods of obtaining information are "torture". "We have your buddy in the next room. We are going to give a deal to the first person talking. Your buddy looks like he's going to be singing like a canary soon. You want to beat him to the punch and score the deal for yourself?" "We have DNA evidence that puts you at the scene. You want to tell us what really happened?" If you don't think these techniques go on everyday, you are nuts. | ||
| Johntman |
Traffic offenses are jailable offenses in Georgia and you are under arrest during a traffic stop whether I put cuffs on you or not. You are under arrest until you sign the bottom of that ticket. Once you sign it you are free to go and no longer under arrest. That is why the officer in question asked the driver out of the car. He refused to sign the ticket, which is his signature bond. So, since he wouldn't sign his signature bond then he has to go to jail be booked in and post a cash bond to ensure that he will show up in court. At my department if you are caught speeding and are out of state and we think you may not pay the fine then we can request you to follow us to the Sheriff's office to post your cash bond to ensure you will show up to court. And thank you Ft Bstrd for helping him understand when Miranda is used. | ||
| Ferris_von_bueller |
Better known as "WATERBOARDING". It DOES happen and the techniques are what keep you safe in bed at night. You're talking about enemy combatants, not U.S. citizens. Still, there is on-going debate as to who, what and where someone can be interrogated and by what means. Torture has been proven to be a very ineffective technique in obtaining information. | ||
| Pwnzor |
Some traffic offenses are jailable offenses here too. But not infractions, as I keep saying. I got pulled over as I was exiting the local toll road about 18 months ago, because I crossed the toll plaza without my transponder. I, of course, did not realize that I had left it in my tank bag, and assumed it was under my seat, where it normally resides. Highway patrol stops me and says, "let me see your transponder", and I unlocked my pillion, and *oops* it's not there. So I explain to him, I do have an account, and I'm sure the camera caught my plate, and so the toll was most likely paid. So he wrote me a ticket, explaining that I did not have to go to court, I could just "get it signed off" by any CHP officer and present it at the local station with a copy of the paid toll to have it nullified. So.... he says, "sign here". I say, "no, that says I am promising to appear in court, and you said I don't have to go to court, so I'll accept the citation, but I'm not signing on that line." Mind you, we had a very civil conversation up to this point. He puts his hand on his sidearm, unsnaps the holster and pulls it half way out, backing away from me. I'm standing by the curb, facing him, with my hands in front of me in plain view, and I say, "hey, take it easy, no need to get on the defense, I just don't want to sign that promise to appear. Give me something to sign that says I don't have to appear, like you explained." He says, "I'm calling for backup", and keeps backing toward his car. I said, "fine, call your backup, I hope you have a camera rolling in your car because you're making a mistake." He didn't like that at all. He orders me to sit on the curb, so I do. Hands in front of me, no sudden moves. I know what to do. Five minutes pass, a captain arrives, and comes right over to me, addresses me as "sir" and says I can go ahead and get up, so I stand and face him. He asks me, "what seems to be the problem here?" I tell him exactly what transpired and he asks the patrol officer to give him the citation, and asks me to accompany him to his car. He gets out the California Vehicle Code book. He finds the section regarding tolls and transponders, and decides to write me a new ticket for not properly displaying the transponder, and explained I would have to go to court. I gladly signed this document, because it was represented to me in a truthful and concise manner. No bullsh*t. What happened then shocked me. The captain gave a full verbal dressing down, complete with expletives to the patrol officer, and referred to me as a "customer". It turns out that it has been over 10 years since it has been legal in this state to have any citation "signed off". ALL citations have court appearances, since 1994! After this, the captain gave me his card, and told me if I ever have a similar problem in his territory with a junior officer to drop his name and show the card.  I'm not a hater. I just get indignant about people who take their job so seriously, and then execute it with ignorance of the laws they supposedly enforce. There's no reason this junior officer should be telling anybody to get a ticket signed off, he was setting me up for a Failure to Appear, bench warrant, and subsequent arrest. I have a dozen similar stories, all of them happened to me. So, yeah, I'm burned on the whole idea of blindly trusting others to enforce the law. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I've had no fewer than 20 traffic citations in various states. Each time, I have shown complete compliance including an instance where I was sure that the officer had clocked the person next to me. In most of those cases I have either known without a doubt that I was guilty or that I was innocent. In every instance, I was able to argue my innocence IN COURT rather than at the scene and have the charges dropped. If the officer had told you that you could have the citation "signed off" and you couldn't, you would know it before your court date and would know that you needed to appear. Yes he was incorrect, but you'd have known that and wouldn't have been any worse off than you were when the officer's supervisor showed up and rewrote the citation. Even if you are right and the citation is written in error and you are completely innocent, it is just an "infraction". Is winning the discussion worth escalating the situation to the point where a rookie cop might draw down on you? Police officers are trained to deal with the absolute scum of the earth. Consequently, they view everyone through the same training "lens". Judges lack this "combat training". Why not argue your point with the judge instead? Pwnzor, You either have (a)incredibly bad luck, (b)live in a place with a high proportion of inept officers, or (b)there is a particular personality or appearance trait that makes you a "special" target. With a dozen similar stories, it does make one wonder. | ||
| Dynasport |
I am coming to this discussion very late. I don't usually like to comment on this type of topic, but after all these pages I just wanted to add my perspective. I am a LEO, but not a traffic officer. I am a criminal investigator at the federal level, which is a bit unusual for me, because I am also a state's rights libertarian. For those reasons, and more, I try to stay out of these things. Since we have such divergent views on the role of police officers and their rights versus the rights of a citizen I wanted to pass on an experience that happened to me. I was looking for an individual as part of an official investigation. I had an address. I went to that address, rang the doorbell, no one came to the door. I spoke to a neighbor across the street raking leaves, who told me people normally went to the back door of that house and he believed someone was home. I walked to the back door and knocked on the door. A woman with a child in her arms answered the door, obviously angry with me for coming to her back door. I showed her my badge, ID'd myself, and told her why I was there. She stated the man rented an apartment attached to their house, but was not home at that time. I went back, got into my vehicle, moved it out of her driveway, and parked in the street in front of the house to wait for the man to come home. A few minutes later a police car pulled in behind me. The officer got out and approached my vehicle. I pulled out my badged, removed a business card, and attempted to give it to him. He pushed my hands down, said he didn't need to see that and proceeded to question me about why I was there. I admit I became angry at this point and told him I was under no obligation to tell him what I was doing there. I informed him I was not in violation of any laws. At that point he called for backup and described me as an uncooperative white male, which I guess was accurate. Minutes later I was surrounded by three officers who appeared very willing, maybe even anxious, to do me harm. I was very concerned at this point. I spoke to the ranking officer, told him I was an armed federal agent and things were getting out of hand. I told him I was getting my badge out, which I did, and I handed it to him. At this point he questioned the first officer on scene, who said I never ID'd myself, which was not true. Anyway, things worked out fine, but I was scared for a few minutes there. I admit I didn't handle things as well as I should have, but I also did not do anything wrong. Sometimes egos and testosterone get out of control and people do dumb things. Cops and civilians both. My advice, keep your head. You may be upset, you may be getting treated unfairly, but suck it up. Be courteous. I was approached by a cop with an attitude. I responded with attitude. MISTAKE. Right or wrong, I made the situation worse. I learned from this experience and will hope others can learn from it as well. BE NICE. BE COURTEOUS. Having said that, I doubt I would give consent to search anything of mine to any law enforcement. If you have probable cause, get a warrant. I would still be nice and courteous though. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The 4th Amendment gives every citizen the RIGHT to withhold permission to conduct a search of a vehicle or home without a warrant. If you are asked if is ok to have your vehicle searched, you may decline to provide permission. The officer may search your vehicle anyway. If so, whatever is found would be inadmissible (unless specific exceptions are present). In order to do a legal search without a warrant (and without permission) the officer must have either: Reasonable Suspicion--Facts or circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to suspect that a crime has been, is being, or will be committed. Probable cause--Facts or evidence that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been, is being, or will be committed and the person arrested is responsible. In Pwnzor's case, the search was either illegal, with probable cause/resonable suspicion, or was with the permission of the vehicle owner. "As a general rule, searches conducted without a warrant are automatically unreasonable and hence violate the Fourth Amendment. But in fact most searches occur without warrants because police take advantage of these many legal exceptions to the Fourth Amendment: Consent Searches If the police ask your permission to search your home, purse, briefcase or other property, and you freely consent, their warrantless search automatically becomes reasonable and therefore legal. Consequently, whatever an officer finds during a consent search can be used to convict the person. Plain View Rule This is common sense: Always keep any private items that you don’t want others to see out of sight. Legally speaking, police do not need a search warrant in order to confiscate any illegal items that are in plain view. Searches Made in Connection with a Legal Arrest Police do not need a warrant to make a search "incident to an arrest." After a legal arrest, police can legally protect themselves by searching the person and the immediate surroundings for weapons that might be used to harm the officer. Consequently, whatever an officer finds during such a search can be used to convict the person. Exigent Circumstances A judge may uphold an officer’s warrantless search or seizure if "exigent circumstances" exist. Exigent circumstances were described by one court as "an emergency situation requiring swift action to prevent imminent danger to life or serious damage to property, or to forestall the imminent escape of a suspect or destruction of evidence." I would be interested to discover the link made that allowed the officers to believe that they were justified in taking a traffic stop to the home. | ||
| Hammer71 |
I would be interested to discover the link made that allowed the officers to believe that they were justified in taking a traffic stop to the home. I'm waiting on that myself. | ||
| Pwnzor |
You wanted the link, here it is. I did consent to the search of the vehicle. I had nothing to hide. In the trunk, among other innocent usual items found in a car's trunk was a little bit of loose soil sitting on top of one of those plastic sheets you get from the garden center when you buy a plant or something so you don't get the car dirty, and a plastic bag with some varied seeds inside. The "special investigator" had a k-9 with him when he arrived at the scene and the dog alerted on the soil and/or seeds. They told me that they would be "derelict in their duties" if they did not then go to my residence and search for evidence of a marijuana growing operation. "Ridiculous", I said. "Maybe so, but this can go two ways," said the investigator, "you can go to jail right now and I'll call a judge with whom I am well acquainted, obtain a warrant, and go to your house. Your wife and kids will have to vacate the residence while we effect our search, which will be very invasive and thorough. OR, you can sign this consent form, go with us to your residence, your kids can stay in their rooms, and we will search only your bedroom and the common areas of the house." By this time, it was about 3:30am, I've been handcuffed and stuffed in the back of the patrol car for about 90 minutes, and I'm feeling like my options are getting scarce. I had nothing to hide, so I consented. I didn't want to go to jail. Fast forward, they toss up my pad, although they did let my kids stay in their rooms, thank God for that, and instead of towing my wife's car, they left it on the side of the road, because as I mentioned, I've been totally polite and cooperative with them. BUT, in the arrest report, they described my American Security free-standing gun safe as "a room having a barricaded door", and called my home a "fortified residence". AFTER they removed all my firearms for "safekeeping", they read me my rights and took me to jail as my neighbors looked on, and my sons are wondering why the hell their dad is being hauled off by a goon squad. My wife called my life-long friend who happens to be a bail bondsman and my bond is posted electronically even before I arrive at the central jail. 12 hours it took them to get me a booking number so they could release me, and I arrive home to find that they had taken the $2500 in cash from the gun safe, and *guess what* it's not listed on the property record or anywhere in the paperwork. THOSE JERKS ROBBED ME IN MY OWN HOUSE WHILE I WAS BEING INTERROGATED AND HUMILIATED IN MY OWN HOME. ....deep breath.... Ok, so that was in May 2006. This is an ongoing episode of my life. Get this: at my arraignment, the charges leveled against me were good for TWO strikes and SIX years straight time in state prison. My attorney, over the next seven months, destroyed their case by evidence that THEY had to provide to US. But they still nailed me with a felony, "unlawful possession of a firearm in a public place, ie: carrying a concealed weapon". That is under appeal, and I'll win that because the amended police report is directly contradictory to the physical evidence. The cop is on camera removing the gun from the trunk, THEN going to the igition of the car, removing the keys, opening the breech lock, closing the slide, THEN going to the glove box of the car and getting the magazine, THEN inserting the magazine, THEN chambering a round, THEN ejecting a round into his palm, THEN laying it all on the hood of his car. But right now, I'm a felon and I can't even have my own guns which have been authorized by court order to be returned to me. So my brother has to hold them, for now. Long story short, once my appeal goes through and the crooked judges' decision is overturned, there will be criminal charges against the arresting officers and the special investigator, as well as civil action against the county. It doesn't stop there, either. They're f-ing with my family now. You either have (a)incredibly bad luck, (b)live in a place with a high proportion of inept officers, or (c)there is a particular personality or appearance trait that makes you a "special" target. a) yeah, my luck with cops has always been kinda crappy. The rest of my life, in contrast, is quite blessed. b) yes, the cops here are a bunch of dopes c) Maybe I look like trouble, but my personality doesn't enter into it. I don't talk to cops as a rule. When I find out somebody is a cop, I politely end the conversation and move as far away as possible. Fire away... | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
The consent to search was the mistake. Even if you have NOTHING to hide, decline to have the car searched regardless of what they say. If they have to ask, you have a right to say no. If they don't ask, they already have probable cause and don't need a warrant or they already have the warrant. When the dog alerted, they HAD to investigate. I've never seen a situation where a dog sounds off whereby the didn't investigate. Lots of guns, cash, AND a dope dog that gets a hit is not a good combination. Seizure of all weapons and cash is standard practice in suspected drug cases. They can and many times do freeze assets as well. Because there were no drugs on the property, they probably were unable to convince the judge to pull the trigger on that. The weapon charge is bogus and wrong. I am assuming the judge didn't view the dash cam video? The assumption by the arresting officers (with pressure from their bosses) drove them to feel that you were a drug dealer. They just couldn't prove it at this time. A weapons charge should be enough to slow you down. Failure to document "drug money" also isn't unheard of. Seized cash tends to disappear into department coffers on righteous busts. Most states also have a tax division that comes knocking on the door of most arrested drug dealers. My buddy was one. His job was to determine the amount of revenues derived from drug trafficing activities and then to determine the total sales and income taxes unpaid in these activities (I kid you not.). His normal speech went something like this: "Hello. My name is Steve Johnson. I am an Asset Seizure and Forfeiture Specialist. I work for the US Government. I am not here to determine your guilt or innocence. Nothing you say to me can be used in your current drug case. I am here on behalf of the state and federal government to claim unpaid taxes on income and sales made by you. If you cooperate, you will not have the tax evasion case compounding your other charges. We will provide you with our estimate of your total unpaid taxes. If you agree to that amount, we will collect the unpaid tax revenues from the sale of your seized assets. Payment of these outstanding taxes owed will occur at the conclusion of your court case so as not to prejudice the judge or jury. Do you have any questions?" Shite job if you ask me. The barricaded room and fortified house charges were "parsley", added to the list to help to show off the rest of the charges. They know that they can't prove these charges and that they will be dropped in court. You file 6 charges hoping to get a conviction on 1 or 2. Again, fairly normal practice. Why? Lenient sentencing from judges. Make them look as bad as you possibly can and hope the pile of charges will sway the judge for a conviction or heavier sentencing. You can thank the liberal judiciary in the state of California. Officers are judged on the number of arrests and convictions. Therefore, how many bad guys did you get and how many went away? Pressures many not to give any benefit of the doubt toward suspects. It also drives many to build the biggest case they can and let the judge sort it out. Sucks that you got in the middle of this. In the future when they ask to search anything, just say no. They don't ask if you don't have a choice. | ||
| Jont |
Pwnzor, I recommend you read Unintended Consequences by John Ross. Just sayin' | ||
| Igneroid |
I have a "freind" who is constantly getting harrassed and he dosent do anything illegal but he simply asks for it by his actions. I cannot convince him that he's askin for it and nobody could. He's a bit of an idiot when comes to authority. And advice to those who choose to break the law...DON'T BREAK MORE THAN ONE LAW AT A TIME. ie; dont haul your marijuanna in a stolen car/expired tags/no muffler/broken windshield...dum-ass Don't speed while hauling your marijuanna...dum-ass I guess thats why they break the law, they're dum-asses | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Haul drugs in a stolen car with a weapon and you are going away for a long time. When they think you are dealing drugs are transporting a weapon and have a"fortified" residence, they will try to make it stick. They'll fail, but they'll try to make it stick. | ||
| Igneroid |
FT bstrd wrote:When they think you are dealing drugs are transporting a weapon and have a"fortified" residence, they will try to make it stick. Exactly. If you are "clean", why give the impression that you are not? Senseless And argueing with the cop who stopped you is like slapping a Buell salesman because you don't like the 1125r's radiator design. Senseless | ||
| Blake |
In my view, it's ludicrous that marijuana is illegal. It should be regulated and taxed like cigarettes and booze. Free country you say? Not really. | ||
| Brumbear |
HOLY SHYT YOU GUYS NEED TO GET SOMETHING A GOOD WOMEN A GOOD BOTTLE SOME DANG THING CAUSE THIS CRAP IS LAUGHABLE A BUNCH OF SHYT HOUSE LAWERS IF EVER SEEN | ||
| Igneroid |
Brumbear wrote:HOLY SHYT YOU GUYS NEED TO GET SOMETHING A GOOD WOMEN A GOOD BOTTLE SOME DANG THING CAUSE THIS CRAP IS LAUGHABLE A BUNCH OF SHYT HOUSE LAWERS IF EVER SEEN I checked out your website Brumbear........AND....I noticed the following: D.R.TWEED & Sons You're goin down fella.....  } | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
You bring the women and the booze, Brumbear, and I'll bring the laughable crap. | ||
| Brumbear |
AS THEY SAY IN THE ARTILLERY on the way | ||
| Brumbear |
I will be glad to bring the booze I have been married to long to want to get involved with broads I'd rather be tasered | ||
| Bigdaddy |
"I will be glad to bring the booze I have been married to long to want to get involved with broads I'd rather be tasered" A truer statement hasn't been uttered -- especially in this particular thread. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
"...'Cause if I'm going to hurt that bad, I'm gonna do it to myself." --Lewis Black (Message edited by ft_bstrd on December 03, 2007) | ||
| Pwnzor |
I didn't argue with the officers who arrested me, I cooperated with them. It was my level of cooperation where I went wrong. Here's the thing: if I decline to let him search the vehicle, then they bring the dog anyway. The dog alerted on marigold and dichondra seed and some soil... I believe I was screwed no matter what in this instance. Nothing taken from my house was used as evidence against me. However, the audio tapes from my house are going to be used against them | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I hope the system works to clear your name. I hope the system then works while you sue. |
