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Archive through December 05, 2007New12r30 12-05-07  10:35 am
         

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Vegasbueller
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I almost bought one of those old tube testers, but Ms Bueller halted that one! Something about running out of room.
Ferris: That's awesome. I have about 10 consoles, and the wood table radio collections is about 40+ right now. I even have a few two tube regen kits to get built when we get settled in.

As far as the difference in sound, I am sure you can hear it! The tube preamp that I just built also comes in a FET version, and dare I say that the tube one outsells the solid state version because the studios like the ever quoted "warmth" of the sound better.

(Message edited by vegasbueller on December 05, 2007)
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Rocketman
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I could sit myself down to an infinite number of hi-fi systems, and tell the difference. My point was, if a vinyl reproduction and a CD reproduction are of exactly the same quality, can humans tell the difference? Likewise, is there a difference to be heard between tube and conventional? I've owned several quality hi-fi systems, including a Leak 60 tube set-up, and I've never been convinced a system costing several thousands of pounds is necessarily better than a system costing several hundreds of pounds. Simply there are too many dimensions to consider and it all comes down to how good the human ear is, and in particular the condition of the ears on the individual(s) listening. My bet would be technology has far surpassed the reliability of the human ear test. But yes, telling the difference between systems, no problem. But etching out the sound difference at the higher and lower echelons of sound reproduction, I remain in the camp of 'let me have a listen'.

Rocket
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Hughlysses
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

A former co-worker of mine gave me a really good article on the subjectivity of human perception of audio, written mainly in response to some of the unbelievably pricey "new age" audio accessories that are sold now. It kind of echoed what Rocket says above.

After I read the article, the guy gave me a catalog chock full of these questionable audio gizmos. One thing that looked particularly useless to me were special "vibration isolation blocks" which were intended to be used under solid state amplifiers and which were claimed to reduce undesirable resonances, distortion, etc. in the audio signal.
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Bbbob
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've got several tube systems (mostly Fisher) & play a lot of vinyl. Does it sound better vs a quality solid state system? I couldn't say "better" but I can tell you, I can only listen to CDs for an hour or so before I've had enough. I can play records on the tube system all day & it is pleasurable the whole time.
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Badlionsfan
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

i'm holding out for the tube ipod.
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Rocketman
Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well Bob, I can't understand why you're listening to the tubes and the solid states when you really should be listening to the music. Surely listening to CD reproduction for an hour can't make you want to not listen to the music? If so, what is it you're hearing?

Rocket
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Thesmaz
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Alrighty tube fans with iPods, check this stuff out
http://www.fat-man.co.uk/
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 05:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Now that is cool!
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 06:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Amazing how threads go full-circle:

http://www.badweatherbikers.com/cgibin/discus/show .cgi?tpc=4062&post=1021663#POST1021663

(not the same URL, but another iPod/tube device)
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New12r
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 07:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

One thing that looked particularly useless to me were special "vibration isolation blocks" which were intended to be used under solid state amplifiers and which were claimed to reduce undesirable resonances, distortion, etc. in the audio signal.

Some of those gizmos do work, and my ears are the proof.

if a vinyl reproduction and a CD reproduction are of exactly the same quality, can humans tell the difference?

CD's have yet to get to the storage space needed for Unlimited bandwidth, The record has no limitations on how high or low of frequency you "hear". Remember, just because you cannot hear it does not mean it wont affect the waves you do hear. Standard Cd's are limited to 20hz to 20khz bandwidth, There is a LOT of info above and below those marks that will change the way the music sounds.
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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've been avoiding this thread like an oil thread... nothing but grief here... but I have to wade on in this one.

New12r is making an important point, which I agree with, and that is that frequencies you don't hear can have an effect on frequencies you do hear. No argument.


quote:

The record has no limitations on how high or low of frequency you "hear".




Can't let that one slide though. There are all sorts of limitations on frequencies that can be produced from a record. The needle is mechanical and has inertia... it can't move above a certain frequency, nor would the machines stamping the vinyl records be able to produce unlimitedly small patterns (which would be required for unlimitedly high frequencies).

For low frequencies, I can't think of why the digital information on the CD or MP3 would be any kind of limitation... I can trivially create a digital (raw or MP3) wave that is .0001 Hz. The problem reproducing it will be in the analog amplifiers that try and reproduce this signal.

Amp design is a series of compromises. You can have low gain with low noise, or high gain with high noise. You would create one kind of amp for perfect gain but it would have low power output (can't drive a speaker), but another type for high power with limited distortion.

When you go from one stage (say a pre-amp) to another stage (say a power amp), you have to remove the DC coupling. Thats because if you have a gain of 1000 or 10000, even a small DC error above or below 0v (say .001 volts) now drives the next stage to be "centered" at almost the top of it's driving range. Think of it as holding your speaker 9/10ths extended. So when the real "wiggling" signal comes out, the speaker is out of room to wiggle in one direction, and clips.

So you have to "decouple the DC" parts of the two stages, and only transmit the AC. This is typically done by a capacitor between stages. The bigger the capacitor, the lower the frequency signal can be transmitted through the amp. I expect this is where the lower boundry on frequencies being transmitted is coming from.

That's all just to say the upper bound of CD's is probably higher then most record players could practically reproduce anyway, and the lower end is limited by the analog parts of the player, just like it would have been on a record.

Let me also say that I don't have any interest in arguing that some people like the sound of tubes better then solid state. I suspect that they may like tubes better because they distort more, but in pleasant and accustomed ways, rather then because they distort less... but I don't want to argue about it.

When I process my digital photos, I rarely like "correct" color cast corrections. I want appropriately tweaked color casts, that convey the appropriate mood and setting. Noise and distortion can be information as well, and it can be pleasing as well.

Now let me go find a thread about contact patches, synthetic oil, and flat spotted roller bearings...

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Reepicheep
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

(and ironically, as I think about it, it seems to me that you could build an amp that is not an amp at all, but is rather a high power digital to analog driver, which would mean you skip all the pre-amplification stages and DC coupling and go straight from digital to high power analog output... and I don't doubt this is being done already... you would have to move all the processing (treble, bass, etc) adjustments over into the digital domain though, and the volume control, and there be dragons there... trying to change those things digitally without introducing other artifacts...)
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New12r
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Thanks! I was only referring to vinyl being analog and having the "capabilities" to go practically unlimited frequencies. I should have been more clear.
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Thesmaz
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 09:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I can get one of those fatman iTube systems with the speakers for about $200, although it's branded from a different company, which I believe are the ones that actually build the things for fatman.
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Jlnance
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

it seems to me that you could build an amp that is not an amp at all, but is rather a high power digital to analog driver

Dejavu again.

In the voltage regulator thread I was talking about sigma-delta A/D converters. They would be ideal for what you're describing, though you'd obviously want the D/A version.
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Court
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Whatever. . . I've got Steely Dan spinning on vinyl at the moment and all I know if that from that first snap of the snare drum on Hey 19 . . if frickin' rocks.

One of the things I had the common sense to do as a yute was when I bought albums (when they were $2.99 at Tower Records) was to record them on cassette, resleeve the record and use the cassettes.

There were some cases where I went amiss. I've worn out, and replaced, Todd Rundgren "Something Anything" . . mostly for the guitar intro on "Couldn't I just tell you?" and the Led Zepplin albums . . well, let's just say they accurately reflect the late 60's.

: )
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Hughlysses
Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

I've owned Johnny Winter's "Still Alive and Well" on 8-track, two albums (wore the first one out) and now CD. Dang- I haven't broken that one out in a while- guess I need to do it.
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Court
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 06:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The is a big Johnny Winter article in Guitar Player this month.

Very interesting
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Hughlysses
Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Court,

Thanks for the info; I'll be sure and check it out. Guitar World had a big article on his recent management/health issues earlier this year:

http://livebluesworld.com/blogs/view/107/2007/03/2 1/guitar-world-magazine:-the-trials-of-johnny-wint er
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