| Author | Message | ||
     Reepicheep |
Thats a good question Jerry. My "normal" ATGATT is a First Gear Kilmanjaro Air jacket and pants (heavy armored cordura), full face helmet, gauntlet leather street gloves, and over the calf boots. That gets worn for every commute to work, and any serious trip, and most of the time for even a trip up to the grocery store. I evolved to this point though, I started on the street with a leather (non padded, but fairly heavy) jacket, and over the ankle boots, and fairly useless gloves. Don't know what I was thinking  I'll occasionally wear jeans if I am taking the dirt bike up to a local field where I play (.6 miles from my house, back country roads), or if I am running up to home depot or something. All the other gear (including boots) is on though. I recognize that if I go down in jeans, I probably won't have any life threatening ramifactions about it... but I know it will hurt like a sonofabitch. I had a minor street lowside in dockers (probably less then 15 mph) and got two silver dollar sized road rashes. I could not believe how bad those things hurt, and for how long. I was travelling on business a month afterwards, trying to get in and out of planes and taxis (I am 6'2") and would be bumping that thing and flexing it, and it was all I could do to not grunt loudly every time something hit it. Not to mention the $200 or so I probably spent on dressings and antiseptics, and not to mention that some times the dressings would fail and I would be walking up to a client with a big red bloody spont on my dress slacks. Not a good thing... and that was about as minor a motorcycle accident as you could ever have. Go to (website for enough new motorcycle gear that you all know but that I can't reference because they are not a sponsor) and get a $120 pair of armored pants big enough to slip over your dress pants, and some sort of well over the ankle boot for another $60. Even "bad" dedicated motorcycle gear is pretty good. | ||
| Buellinachinashop |
I never quite understood why guys ride around on bikes with helmets strapped to the bike or on the sissy bar, but not on their heads. If you can make the effort to strap it to your bike, why not on your head? My brother-in-law has a saying that keeps running through my head whenever I think about cracking the throttle open to try to break the sound barrier... "at 100mph the only differnece between a guy wearing a helmet and a guy not wearing a helmet is whether the casket is open or closed." I'm all for people doing what they want, when they wan't. But I wouldn't be opposed to a mandatory helmet law for people with less than 2 years of riding. Make the first two season probationary. I also wouldn't be opposed to a law that made dealers sell a helmet with snowmobiles, atv's and motorcycles. Maybe if folks are charged for it from the get go, the cost of it alone may make some use it. | ||
| Jerry_haughton |
i believe gear is good, but in spite of four decades on two wheels, i'm NOT religious about ATGATT. anyone paying attention to the few pix i posted from Buelltoberfast will note that in the last shot my 'Stich was lashed down on the back of the bike, and were it legal to do so my Arai woulda been back there, too, at least as we came up the Parkway from Asheville that day. like i said, gear is good, but if a person truly believes that "ALL The Gear ALL The Time" is the only way to fly, they'd NEVER leave home, for ANY reason, in anything less than FULL leather or textile, with accompanying high-quality moto-specific handwear and footwear (and full helmet, of course). i see a lot of folks in the Buell community who ride very, very hard wearing considerably less than that standard. i'm not passing judgement, because often times i do the same thing. FB | ||
| Cyclonemick |
Why don't people just worry about themselves instead of judging people based on their standards of living??? Alot of the time I wear gear as a personal decision but if I don't, it is not any ones business but mine. The way some of this discussion is headed It wouldn't suprise me if some of you wear helmets and other gear while driving your car!! If you are so worried about dying or getting road rash then wear your gear but don't call people stupid or uneducated because they don't choose to live like you! | ||
| Reepicheep |
Chinashop... I can think of a lot of 100 mile per hour crash scenarios where a helmet would be the difference between life and death. Not all of them by any means, but enough. One thing I have noticed that I can add to this thread is that the more gear I wear, and the more often I wear it, the more comfortable I am in it, and the less comfortable I am without it. After a couple of seasons riding most of the time in armored pants, I get the heebie jeebies whenever I ride without them now. | ||
| Ulywife |
Gear is expensive, gear can save your skin and possibly your life, gear is also a personal choice. Part of this is where Pay It Forward came from. Sometimes people don't realize the extent of gear expenses when they buy that first bike. I know we didn't, but we learned quickly and now have a range of gear for the three of us that ride. I was very thankful that Carlos was wearing all his gear when he was bitten by the Dragon. Reep - that company you speak of has been our friend for the last two years. They have great gear at reasonable cost and have a reasonable return policy. Gotta love their Bargain Basement Section. | ||
| Bombardier |
My wife works in the Emergency Department as a nurse at our local hospital. The amount of damage she sees on bikers who have just nipped down to get some milk/bread etc is phenominal. With me its ATGATT no matter what. | ||
| Nevrenuf |
,only you can be responsible for your own actions. the way i ride on the buell is totally different than the way i ride on the full dresser(although sometimes i forget i'm on the ultra) i did finally wise up to wearing a 3/4 helmet and i always wear jeans and boots. after i bought the buell, i rode one day with a brain bucket. i went out and got a full face after that and won't ever ride without one again on the buell. the older i get, the more i'm realizing i got to better protect myself on both bikes. some people learn from their mistakes and unfortunately, some don't. i hope i did. | ||
| Slaughter |
Good gear IS expensive. Going down without it is much more expensive. Just don't FORCE me (as a taxpayer) to pay for a rider's poor choices (insurance and protective gear) | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Darwin rules will sort it all out. | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I guess I have a different view of riding. I never think of it as a conveyance. To me riding is a sport. I wouldn't imagine not suiting up in full gear to play football. I wouldn't ride without it either. I wouldn't wear protective gear for a 10-15 minute ride to go to dinner. As a result, I don't ride my bike for a 10-15 minute trip to go to dinner. I drive. If I can't ride for at least an hour, I usually don't roll the bike out of the garage. I don't care if others want to ride without gear. It is their choice. The only issue I have is when THEIR choice affects me. Every ride in an ambulance, every life flight, every stay in the hospital, every surgical proceedure, every wheelchair, every property damage claim, every body storage fee, is paid for by someone. Rarely is it the rider. Usually it either an insurance company or the government. Neither of these entities has their "own" money. They must take it from everyone else. Therefore, I pay for someone elses choice. When you choose not to wear gear and get hurt, I pay for it. That seems unfair to me. You? | ||
| Sanchez |
> i continually see pix on BadWeB (including from last weekend's Buelltoberfast event) of riders who are not wearing full gear (either leather or textile) Yeah, that bugs me too. I was glad to see the riders who went down Saturday had their gear on and escaped serious injury, at least. I wish I'd taken a picture of Froggy's leg. His textiles saved him from severe header burns. > I'd like to see a national ad campaign for gear safety. That sounds like a fine idea. It seems like it could be really effective, too. I saw one picture of an accident victim on one website years before I even thought about buying a motorcycle, and it still sticks in my mind. The photo was of a man whose jaw had been scraped off because he was only wearing a brain bucket. Because of that one photo, you'll never catch me without a full face helmet. I'd also really like to see an ad campaign targeted at car drivers. According to the Hurt study, about half of all motorcycle accidents result from another vehicle driver violating the bike's right-of-way. Reducing the number of accidents really addresses the root cause of the problem. > if a person truly believes that "ALL The Gear ALL The Time" is the only way to fly, they'd NEVER leave home, for ANY reason, in anything less than FULL leather or textile, with accompanying high-quality moto-specific handwear and footwear (and full helmet, of course). Yep, that's me.  | ||
| Slaughter |
Darwin rules will sort it all out. Unfortunately, it doesn't work out that way. Species with poor survival rates for individuals are those species who SPAWN - breeding early and often... meaning in the case of IDIOTS - their lack of judgement has usually meant that by the time they've removed themselves from the gene pool, they've already reproduced. Wish you were right but our gene pool could use more chlorine. | ||
| Sanchez |
> I pay for someone elses choice. True, but motorcycle fatalities are only a small slice of the pie (about 8% according to FARS.) If you're worried about footing the bill for medical costs, you really should focus on convincing the 80% majority of car and truck drivers to wear helmets.  | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
took a long time to convince people that drinking and driving isnt a sport...but it worked for the most part...i think it is time to edumacate the public and maybe convince motorcycle makers to include decent basic gear as the total sale..whoever said that is one smart cookie..good idea....we have to educate the cagers and riders alike...now if one small company implemented something like that and it worked...betcha others would follow...kinda like that under the bike exhaust. | ||
| M2nc |
I do not fall in the ATGATT category. I do where gear all the time, but not all the gear all the time. I ride to work and on errands so there are times I do not where protective pants. Riding to work, I where full face helmet, jacket, gloves, long pants (jeans) and over the ankle boots. In the summer I wear a Joe Rocket mesh jacket that anymore I just look at it as bare minimum. If I am just going riding, I do where my riding pants. I have two, both textile. One mesh for summer riding and one water-proof that I where most of the time. I also have First Gear over-pants that I where during the winter to work. I have been lucky. Both times I have been down on the street, I have been in full gear. I did hurt my foot and ankle on the first incident because the boots I was wearing were only 6" ankle boots that had a crack in the sole of the boot. The sole of the boot gave way when my foot got tangled up under the bike and caused soft tissue damage to my foot. The second incident, I had 10" over the ankle boots and hard CE armor with heavy Cordura panels. Not even the gear was hurt on this incident and I still use it. Both incidents were low sides between 25mph-35mph. Not to go outside the scope of the conversation, but gear will protect you only so much. I find that my riding and awareness to the hazards around me are a greater protection to me. What good is gear in traffic at 100mph. It will help, but at speed greater than 30mph, luck or God's timing will play heavily into your survival. I always try to stay out of traffic. Even in traffic I try to stay in the open pockets of traffic where I have a greater chance to not get run over if I go down. At stop lights I always point the bike between the two cars infront of me. The bike is usually off to one side of the lane to prevent a car from behind making me the meat in a metal sandwich. I rarely travel speed over 70mph on surface streets and run 5mph over traffic average on freeways. I always pay attention to the line of sight and required stopping distance around corners and over hills. As I become a more experienced rider, some of that experience learned the hard way, I find that what I do on the bike is as important as what I do preparing for the ride. | ||
| Cyclonemick |
Every ride in an ambulance, every life flight, every stay in the hospital, every surgical proceedure, every wheelchair, every property damage claim, every body storage fee, is paid for by someone. Rarely is it the rider. Usually it either an insurance company or the government. Neither of these entities has their "own" money. They must take it from everyone else. All of the above could still happen if the downed rider was wearing gear. I've paid for motorcycle Insurance for 14 years and never made a claim, I would say I'm paying for it too! | ||
| Ragnagwar |
"I rarely travel at speeds Over 70MPH On Surface Streets".  ?????? | ||
| Cyclonemick |
Every ride in an ambulance, every life flight, every stay in the hospital, every surgical proceedure, every wheelchair, every property damage claim, every body storage fee, is paid for by someone. Rarely is it the rider. Usually it either an insurance company or the government. Neither of these entities has their "own" money. They must take it from everyone else. All of the above could still happen if the downed rider was wearing gear. I've paid for motorcycle Insurance for 14 years and never made a claim, I would say I'm paying for it too! | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
Cyclone, Agreed it could all happen anyway, but you'd have to admÍt that the singular benefit of the gear is to reduce the damage caused by the impact. Case in point, Neverenuf and Froggy. Two laydowns which ended in a couple of scuffs and a sore shoulder. What about M2NC? Same thing. What about me? Two header burns and a couple of cracked ribs. Nothing broken. No road rash. My buddy went down. Lost a helmet, jacket, pants, and gloves but NO injuries. I don't know if Neil lost a helmet, but I know Carlos did. We lost a guy on a ride. Moderate speed laydown (like the rest of those listed above). Mesh jacket, mechanic's gloves, jeans, and running shoes. Nothing broken but severe road rash on his arms, ankles, back, and hands. Had he had proper gear, his result would have been better. The insurance companies work to make money. There is a ratio of premium paid vs claims paid. If the spread widens accompanied by a discernible trend, premiums tend to drop. Unfortunately, we haven't seen any sort of claim reduction trend. If you just pulled the medical component out of the claim pool, the rates would decrease dramatically. For many "bad" accidents, the medical cost exceeds the replacement cost of the bike. Even if you don't make it, there are still medical costs to be covered. If you never file a claim, great! You paid for those who did. | ||
| Diablobrian |
J_h: "if a person truly believes that "ALL The Gear ALL The Time" is the only way to fly, they'd NEVER leave home, for ANY reason, in anything less than FULL leather or textile, with accompanying high-quality moto-specific handwear and footwear (and full helmet, of course)" Yep, that's me!  Arai Astral-Xi, Sidi Vertigos, Tourmaster race style gauntlets, Firstgear 2-piece/Joe Rocket mesh 2-piece/ Fieldsheer textile jacket. Regardless of the length of the ride, or the temperature outside. In fact I have a closet in my house that is set aside for riding gear only. Between mine, my wife's, and the kid's gear it is starting to fill up! Any items I come up with that are surplus I donate on the BadWeB "pay it forward" board so that someone else that might have gone without can have at least a little more gear. I don't believe in strong arming people into wearing gear. I do however believe in encouraging people to wear it  Of course there are instances where the gear isn't enough to save your life, but how many times does the gear make things worse? The old anecdote about some guys neck getting broken because he was wearing a helmet doesn't stand up to serious scrutiny. There is no scientific data that backs it up. Only conjecture. I can't imagine full gear (Helmet, boots, gloves and a 2 piece leather or textile riding suit) making the odds of coming through an accident worse off than if the person was wearing no helmet, a t-shirt, flip-flops, and shorts. We all agree that we have to ride defensively to survive on the streets (I've never heard anyone dispute it anyway) and that strategy is based on assuming that everyone on the road either can't see you, or is out to get you, and planning how you ride based on that knowledge. I would think that wearing your gear is a natural extension of that strategy. You are just armoring yourself in anticipation of someone else trying to "take you out". I don't want the government to be any more involved in my life than it already is. I see more legislation coming if we do not take steps on our own to wear more than the legal minimum (or less) of riding gear. (Message edited by diablobrian on October 14, 2007) | ||
| Molly_hatchet |
i certainly would like to see my insurance premium go down a little....i pay more for my insurance than i do for my bike payment...wear the gear and learn to ride for christs sake ur killin me.... | ||
| Nevrenuf |
but motorcycle fatalities are only a small slice of the pie (about 8% according to FARS.) If you're worried about footing the bill for medical costs, you really should focus on convincing the 80% majority of car and truck drivers to wear helmets. that's a good piece sanchez. and as far as loosing a helmet,no but my boot did not hold up. it must have caught on something on the ejection. when my daughter went down and showed up at work, she sold quite a few jackets because of what she looked like afterwards with the road rash and scarring. the AMA maybe should start the this is your body without gear ad compaign. this is definitely something that you don't want the government to get involved in. | ||
| Rainman |
I picked up some mesh summer wear and a coldweather/rain riding jacket and a pair of winter gloves for $120 from motorcyclecloseouts.com and a pair of textile overpants from newenough.com for $90, all with CE or temperfoam armor. I bought a AFX helmet for $60 (fullface DOT), $15 gloves (normally $40) at newenough and I wear it all the time which is pretty much every day. Didn't use to. Getting older, I guess. | ||
| Mikej |
Do any of you ride bicycles? How geared up are you while doing so? Have any of you ever driven a convertible sportscar or Jeep type vehicle? How geared up were you while driving? I have no control over what other people do while they drive or ride their vehicle, doesn't matter if I'm on a motorcycle, a bicycle, in a truck or car, or walking down the street, so any argument about dressing for the actions of other drivers/riders is not a strong argument to me personally. Would I like better gear? Yep. Should I wear better gear? Yep. Do I dress marginally when riding? Yep. Am I going to keep this up? Yep. 95% of the time I'm probably wearing a helmet on a motorcycle, but sometimes I don't. 90% of the time I'm wearing my Vanson jacket on the motorcycle, but sometimes not. Sometimes I'll wear my Sidi OnRoad boots on the bike, but usually not, and sometimes I'll wear running shoes , or dress shoes  , all depending on where I'm going. Usually I wear heavier gauntlet style gloves, sometimes I'll wear the thin calfskin work gloves, sometimes other stuff. I don't buy into the arguments that we all foot the bill for other's accidents, because then you have to apply that to all accidents, pedestrians vs. vehicle, bicycle vs. vehicle, SemiTruck vs. minivan, Ford Super Duty vs Mini Cooper, instead of just arguing this tract relative to motorcycle safety gear. Is it better to wear better and more protective gear while operating a motorcycle? Yep. Is it dumb not to? Depends on your personal point of view. But as long as I'm free to choose what I wear I'll continue to do so. And when/if that freedom goes away I think I'll have bigger issues to concern myself with. Some even argue or discuss the relative safety of gear and how that safety quotient is measured. How do we as end users easily find out how safe something really is. Does one particular set of body armor really protect me better than another? Does the testing of it really equate to better protection for me? How safe is safe and how safe is safe enough? There was a discussion on the site here that covered the safety ratings of various body armor products, interesting reading. Still it's my personal choice. Is this person in the following pic "safe enough"? I don't know. But I do know that I might consider a flip-front helmet for my next helmet purchase.  ( image found here: http://www.maxmoto.co.uk/images/Moto%20Guzzi%20Leathers.jpg ) Off to newenough.com once again to see what they have. The road is for riding, the track is for racing, and dress to your own personal comfort level. (Message edited by mikej on October 15, 2007) | ||
| Iamike |
I used to teach bicycle safety when I was the Safety Coordinator for our local bicycle club. I referenced a book quite often that was a very good book on bicycle safety. Until I read where the author was a witness in a lawsuit where a guy was in an accident while riding at night without lights. His argument was that the manufacturer should have installed lights on all bikes. I called the author up and told him that I thought that it was a mistake to blame the manufacturer for the rider being a moron. I tried to tell him that even if they did put lights on all bikes most people wouldn't put batteries in them (ala smoke detectors). He couldn't see my point, then I realized that he was a typical anti big business type person so I mailed his book back to him and told him he was going to ruin bicycling. If we aren't careful to watch ourselves the politicians are going to ruin it for us. | ||
| Mikej |
They are already and try to do more every day. That book author wasn't Forester, was it? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
There is a vast difference between "gearing up" to drive a car and gearing up to ride a motorcycle. Accidents for cars have no bearing on accidents on bikes. Add to that the fact that there are much fewer riders to spread that risk. Fewer riders also provide much less competition between carriers. Therefore, each incident has a larger impact. Say what you will about accidents having no impact on others, but that's the way insurance works. All premiums go into a pot. Out of that pot, claims are paid. What's left covers administrative expenses, required retention margin, and profit. When claims are more than expected, profit gets squeezed and rates increase. "How you ride" makes little difference. You have no ability to affect the driving or riding of others. It doesn't matter how carefully you ride, someone can always take you out. You have the right to choose not to wear your gear. If that is going to be a habit, please remove the medical provision from your motorcycle coverage. | ||
| Iamike |
Mikej - Bingo. I really argued hard with him about personal responsibility but he seemed too wrapped up in corporate resposibility. I asked him how a corporation can be held responsible when the rider doesn't wear a helmet, doesn't maintain his bike properly, runs stop signs, rides at night without lights, etc. | ||
| Sanchez |
Personal responsibility is dead in this country. It's just too easy to file a lawsuit. I visited Ireland last year, and I found it really refreshing. I didn't see any "don't be stupid" signs warning me not to spill coffee on my crotch or fall off a railing. I didn't watch much TV, but what I did see was missing the obligatory ridiculous legal disclaimers you see on every advertisement here. |
