| Author | Message | ||
     Loucksgl |
Guess this is applicable to this page. For those who don't know it, I have an on going surge problem with a 08 Uly. Normally I would unload it immediately cause I've had BMW's with surge and got so much static from dealers and even engineering department at BMW of NA that I just left it at dealer for sale. Actually left all three of em. Now the Uly. I actually am showing more patience with the 08 Ulysses cause it is a magnificent handling bike. I am pushing my patience to the edge trying to correct this surge crap. Bought it cause of economy and handling. All new electronics to correct rough running in 06 & 07's. Turning radius increased. What I got is a bike that won't run correctly under 60mph. Its a whomper 60 and above. I love it there. Useless under 55mph. I've tried to ride around the surge, above it and tried to ignore it. Can't do it. Dealer says bikes OK. Dealer conversation with Buell tech was of a nature different than the info I told dealer. "Don't lug the engine was my supposedly corrective action". Actually if you lug the engine, (under load), it won't surge. Its the neutral throttle, level running or down hill that brings a prominent surge. So that tells me the dealer tech didn't feel it and the information relayed to Buell Techs was incorrect. I really like the bike. One more try with Buell Tech. Its either fix or its outa hear. I sell Harleys and I work in the dealership. To sell Buells, ya gotta be interested in em and it helps if ya own one and like it. I had mine and a new 08 Uly on a road test yesterday with a customer. Mine is running very rough. So customer goes on new 08 and I follow. New 08 broke down. Two 08's running poorly. Guess this whole point is this. How high tech do we need to be with a motorcycle to go out and have fun? Active exhaust module. Theres one for ya. Really! Is it necessary? TPS actuated modular interstellar post reptillian dianalyser scanner to boost residual horse power. Ok, I'm being sarcastic. But ya get the idea. Bottom line is that its all about quality. If ya can't produce quality each and every time then theres something wrong with the process. Or the engineering. With Buell I'm not sure which. But theres too many glitches in these Buells to call them reliable. I've owned over 33 big bikes in my life, most BMW's and I've busted a couple drive shafts but thats about it. And they are fairly high tech these days. But they run consistently well. My Buell has one thing going for it. It handles like a magician. And thats why I have it now. But even Houdini had his final hour. | ||
| Glitch |
But theres too many glitches in these Buells to call them reliable. There's only one Glitch! Seriously though. What RPM are you noticing the surge? Not MPH, like you said it happened at 60MPH, and downhill. If you're talking about trying to keep the bike at 3200RPM (give or take) either ride above that, or below it. That isn't a very pleasant RPM for th Buells. I sell Harleys and I work in the dealership. And you can't get the techs to take your word, and take the bike out until they feel the surge? You work at Smokey Mountain? | ||
| Loucksgl |
OK. Its not a speed thing. Its an RPM thing. But the whole idea is to move along and that is some kind of speed. From 3000 rpm and below the surge is extremely evident. It is also present at 3500 rpm but more evident at 300 rpm. Therefore I use the 3K when I speak of it. Ya can go in 1st gear 3000rpm, 2nd 3000 rpm 4th gear at 3500 rpm etc. Its there big time. These bikes are touted to be useful on back roads and that means low speed at times. Sometimes a lot of the time. 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear are heavily used. I can't drive in 2nd gear at 4500 rpms. Just cant. I don't care about lofting the wheel or doing wheelies etc. And actually I like to just cruise at 50mph sometimes in fourth gear. Not asking too much. The rpms are around 2900. Level riding or down hill. Not using the throttle. Just putting along. Its a twin. Anyway.....Surging of any kind is not acceptable under any circumstance. Detonation I can understand. Surging no way. Absolutely no way. Ya can ride (hypothetical) at 40mph in 5th gear and cause detonation if ya gap it. But surging will not enter the equasion cause engine is under load. Thats a stupid thing to do but I'm illustrating something here. Surging is a lean operating circumstance anyway ya cut it. Cause could be many things. I know its not designed that way cause the new 08 I test rode yesterday was perfect. As for the techs here; retail customers seem to get the preferential treatment. And no; no one knows anything but the techs. They live on their own service planet surounded by Harleys and are highly opinionated. I can't even find one who can acknowledge the bike has a surge let alone fix it. | ||
| Xl1200r |
Did they check for an intake leak? both my '07 Buell and my '04 Sportster needed intake seals replaced within the first 1500 miles or so. Also, give a check to your primary chain slack. It's probably not likely at the speeds you're talking about, but I can see it playing a role if it loosened up enough. It sounds like you run the rpms a little higher than I do, so I can see it possibly being an issue. | ||
| Hughlysses |
Well, at least you've established that your bike is not "normal" for an 08 (not that the earlier bikes surged that badly in the first place; I don't notice any significant surge on my 07). It's also not like some of the BMWs where EVERY bike surged yet the factory consistently denied there was a problem. It looks like you're ~200 miles from either Stone Mountain or Bumpus HD/Buell (both known to have competent Buell mechanics) but if you're willing to ride I'll guarantee you one of them will take care of it. Other than that, I'd suggest you first contact Buell Customer Service at 1-414-343-8400 and politely explain your dilemma. They may contact your service department directly and steer them to correct the problem. You might also drop a note in the "Court in Session" forum and request his assistance. I'm sure it's highly frustrating to have a new bike that doesn't run right, and even more frustrating to have a mechanic that won't do anything about it or even acknowledge the problem. You'll just come out ahead if you set your frustration aside for a while and give the right people a chance to work the problem from the other side. | ||
| Glitch |
That's what I thought. The RPM area you're talking about is indeed a trouble area, for us, not the EPA. What I would do if I were you, and not willing to rev any higher. I'd either get the Remus Fueler, the Race ECM, or PCIII, something I could tune myself, open the air box, and if that failed, I'd get a different muffler as well. Why stay stock? How many miles do you have on your Uly? The more miles you get, the better mileage you'll get. Everything about these bikes get better after the 10thousand mile mark. | ||
| Jaimec |
Actually, Hughlysses, NOT every R1100 BMW surged. A lot of them did, but not ALL of them. I've ridden examples that surged, and I rode examples that did not. But there was a large number of them that did surge and it was extremely annoying that BMW refused to admit there was a problem. Eventually, in an interview with the newly appointed head of BMWNA's motorcycle division, BMW acknowledged that there MIGHT be an issue with a fuel injection system that was developed for multi-cylinder engines being retrofitted to a twin (which is why no one with a K bike ever complained of surging). Still without ever admitting there was a real issue, BMW quietly introduced a twin spark head to the boxer series and that seems to have resolved the problem (not that there ever was one, right?). Naturally, they insist the reason for the twin spark head had NOTHING to do with surging complaints... | ||
| Mikej |
(slipping in the side door here....) If you want your primary RPM range for your desired use to be below 3,500RPM then you may need to install a new cam and then all the associated controls and parameters in the ECM/FI stuff to work with the new cams in your desired RPM range. I've currently got three bikes, a '95 S2 with the heavy flywheels, a '00 M2 with a basically stock engine and rejetted carb and c/f race air filter, and a '91 Harley FLT. Both the Buells prefer life above 3,000 RPMs, the Harley is perfectly happy thumping along all the way down to 2,000RPM, the Buells are content to run above 4,500RPM, the Harley is hardly happy up above 4,500RPM. The point being that the Uly wasn't designed to be a boonie trail bike, it was advertised as an adventure bike. If you want to gear it down and cam it down for better low speed and trail service then you're going to have to make some adjustments to it to get it to work in a manner that you want it to work like. As an analogy, while you can tap brads into a picture frame with a sledge hammer, you'd be better off using a smaller hammer on the brads. Likewise, if you want a bike that runs well below 3,500 RPM then either modify your Uly for this purpose or get a different bike. I didn't bother to read the rest of the details as they seemed to be downwind of what I addressed, and I learned a long time ago to avoid standing downwind of certain things. YMMV. Life's too short to get all worked up over minor stuff, and yeah I need to tell myself this at times as well. Adjust your riding, or adjust the bike, or get a different bike. And, yeah, I know, easy to say from here. I can sympathize, but I'd rather go for a ride. | ||
| Mikej |
Some twins are perfectly happy with one playing an oboe and the other a bassoon in a woodwind quartette, while other twins would rather jam out with a loud electric guitar and the other one on a wild bass slamming out some heavy headbanger tunes. Both sets of twins are functionally twins, but trying to hang out with one set like you hang out with the other set will get you negative results - usually. Sure, a twin is a twin, but beyond that being a twin tells you nothing. Wrap your mind around a solution and unseat your arse from the situation, you might just find yourself in a happier place once you do. Okay, I'm done now, bye ...      | ||
| Court |
>>>But there was a large number of them that did surge and it was extremely annoying that BMW refused to admit there was a problem. I thought BMW determined it was a "owner issue".  | ||
| Glitch |
Mikej just gave me a thought. You could change your primary gearing to the CityX (XB9) that would lower the gear ratio, making lower speeds more friendly? | ||
| Loucksgl |
Oh ya! Just as I expected. Great help and great comments from dedicated people. I sincerely appreciate the tremendous response and comments. Great bunch, you Buell guys. You're exactly why I still have this bike. Refrencing some comments: Primary chain is perfect. Set by techs. Air intake leaks - they didn't check anything on the bike cause they couldn't find the surge.???? Remus fueler. This I have been interested in greatly. I left a note on a previous entry on this web asking if anyone had any experience with Remus and got no response so I thought I was barking up the wrong tree. Also bike has between 56 and 5800 miles on it. And "Lifes too short to get worked up about stuff." Agreed!!!! I just can't stand shoddy workmanship less than desirable work ethics. The bike surges. Period. Leave it. Ride it. Discover the problem. Arrive at a solution. And fix it. Call me and I'll pick it up. Period!!!!!!! But don't tell me there's nothing wrong with the bike.  By the way, Buell techs called the service dept and service will go with me on a ride to see how I'm riding the Buell. So we start again. Actually 1st or second gear at 3 to 4K across the park lot will reproduce the same thing. But happy they have reopened the case. If the new unsold 08 Uly is repaired we can switch bikes and the tech will absolutely see the diff between smooth and surge. Ya!!!!!!!!1 (Message edited by loucksgl on October 12, 2007) | ||
| Reepicheep |
I think Glitch was referring to swapping your primary gear assembly (chain, sprockets, and rotor) to an XB9 assembly. That effectively lowers your gearing, meaning you would be running at a higher RPM for any given speed. Other uly owners that spend more time offroad have made the change and like it (nothing to do with surging, they just wanted lower gearing). Not that you should have to do this to solve your surging problem... but if it was something you wanted anyway, it would probably move things around and maybe land you in a happier place. Though it would no doubt make the dealer and factory less likely to help you debug the *real* problem... as you have then moved pretty far from stock. | ||
| Mikej |
"Mikej just gave me a thought. " Sorry about that.  "But don't tell me there's nothing wrong with the bike." If I buy DOT race tires for my street bike and then complain that they're too slick when cold on my morning commute to work, can I say there is something wrong with the tires? Or should I say I choose the wrong tires for my intended use of them? When I want to cruise along at 40mph in 4th gear I either ride the Harley or the S2. If I'm on the M2 I just grab 3rd. Adjust the tool, or adjust the use of the tool. Hope you find a resolution you can live with. And I apologize for my sarcastic tone, please don't punch me in the nose if we ever meet in person.  ps, I'm not saying your Uly isn't surging, I'm just implying that the Uly probably isn't too happy with running below 3,500rpm. (Message edited by mikej on October 12, 2007) | ||
| Hughlysses |
Still without ever admitting there was a real issue, BMW quietly introduced a twin spark head to the boxer series and that seems to have resolved the problem (not that there ever was one, right?). Naturally, they insist the reason for the twin spark head had NOTHING to do with surging complaints... Didn't they also heavily revise their fuel injection? I recall reading in a Cycle World article that the latest generation BMW opposed twins added a second oxygen sensor (one per cylinder). IIRC, they said the FI was basically two completely independent systems, one for each cylinder which was the only way they could get these engines to run without surging. Guys, some of the responses ignore what Loucksgl said. He says he rode another 08 Uly and it didn't have the same issue as his. Higher RPM, different gearing, etc., might minimize the problem, but it does sound like there's a problem with his bike since the other 08 he rode didn't act the same. | ||
| X1glider |
I had surging issues with my X1 that took over 2 years to get worked out. I won't bore you with the details but it was a simple issue of a tight crankshaft bearing fit that would melt the seal, leak/dump all the fluid into the primary then tranny and onto the rear tire. I had a lot of surging during this process. In the process of all this, what was happening was the rear head temp sensor was telling the ECM it was too hot and it would then dump in extra fuel to cool things off. The heat was a byproduct of not having enough oil in the engine. Then, after working briefly, the O2 sensor would start to foul from an overly rich mixture. Then the surging started. The whole time I thought I had a lame FI system, it was really a tight bearing bore causing the bearing to get so hot the seal would "melt" or deteriorate for a lack of better words. The sensors were doing the job properly all along and trying to compensate for another deficiency. Now, I'm not saying you have a bearing bore problem, but check you fluid levels anyway. I'd be more inclined to say you could have a sensor with an intermittent problem or is just not performing properly. Maybe you also need your TP recalibrated. I feel your pain and frustration. As I had a 3 year warranty, I didn't mess with my problem at all, so the bike was in the shop 70% of the time in pieces...12 times total to be exact. The tech, nor me, would have guessed it was a stupid bearing bore. Someone got lucky one day during a tear down. | ||
| Etennuly |
Loucksgl, I cannot do it this weekend but maybe next week some evening or on the weekend I can come out there and ride with you a little. I know exactly the surge you are talking about. If we trade bikes for a few miles I 'd be more than happy to help you interpret the problem to the techs. I will also back you up to Buell CS. I face these techs every time I come in for an issue and as long as I have the answers we have always been able to come to a solution. My problems have not required a call to BCS yet. I'm happy to help if you'd like. | ||
| Loucksgl |
Mikej -- No offense taken man!. I appreciate your comments. Really! Thank you. I see it this way. If it isn't supposed to run correctly at low speed, then don't advertise it as a go anywhere do anything bike. Even vidios show the Uly on dirt or gravel roads in the middle of nowhere. And I don't care what anyone says, ya can't run all the time everywhere at max throttle, especially on back and side roads. Don't get me wrong; I didn't buy it for strictly back, broken pavement roads. But I do frequent them. I expect a performance level equal at least to the advertised word. What am I supposed to think? The bike can and will do it. The New 08 I test rode is perfect at 15 mph as well as 60 mph any rpm. Mine just has a problem. I know it'll work out. Thank you so much again for your comments. Again, you guys are the reason I am giving this bike all the chances in the world. A great group of folks you are. | ||
| Rick_a |
'08's did away with TPS adjustments. We had a customer that had a huge issue with a V-Rod...was a life time Harley rider. He was trying to cruise on the thing at 2-3K RPM! XB's don't have a reputation for issues. Most issues we see are simple like fouled plugs from reving a cold motor, loose plug wires or other connectors. Malfunctioning tip over sensors are another common one. Sounds like it could be a vibration related problem. | ||
| Ducxl |
Has it been said yet? Both my tuber AND XB12r are LUGGING below 3000 RPM. My Ducati 996 is LUGGING below 4000 RPM. Dude...you're LUGGING your motor! | ||
| Natexlh1000 |
My X1 has no issues running in fifth from 40 up so long as it's jut maintaining the same speed. Are XB12 engines really that different? | ||
| Etennuly |
I can run my Uly at 2200 to 2800 all day, no surge at all. It will chug when a load is presented though. Down shift and go, no surge. | ||
| X1glider |
'08's did away with TPS adjustments. Man, I'm finding it more difficut to keep up the longer I've been away. Can you explain what they're doing now? | ||
| Diablobrian |
4500 rpms is not revving a Buell to the moon. All of them stumble a bit 3k-3500 or so. You can't ride the Uly like big twin. It won't be any happier than the big twin would be revving it to the limiter in every gear. Ducxl is correct. with an 1050rpm idle you are trying to ride the bike like it has 1950 rpm of usable revs. That is text book lugging of the motor. This motor was designed to be revved higher than that as evidenced by the cam profiles, and gearing. They could have geared it taller in the final drive to let it run higher speeds at lower rpms if that was their goal, however the cam grind would have been changed to produce more torque down low trailing off about where you hit your peak now...like stock H-D cams... Uly: 92.2 rwhp @ 6750rpm 71.9flbs @ 57500rpm FXDX: 62.5 rwhp @ 5500rpm 76.3ftlbs @ 3250rpm (using http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/performancedata with the 03 xb12s standing in for the Uly) Note where the HD's peak torque lives. In fact, except for the vrod all H-D products have about 3k rpms as the "sweet spot" where you Buell likes to be run harder than that. Bottom line is that while you CAN make the 08 Uly a stump puller it's a little unreasonable to complain that it is not one in stock configuration. Buell has been very careful to clearly state that the Uly is NOT a dual-sport bike. I'm sorry if this comes off a little harsh, I just don't want to dance around the point when you asked for our input. I mean really, if I did mince words this post would have been even longer! (if you can believe that) | ||
| Strokizator |
I don't want to sound like an ass but here goes. Have somebody else besides the dealer techs ride it and see if they also feel the surge. If nobody else does then maybe you are just too sensitive to the slightest mechanical response. I have a buddy who is on his 35th bike and he's only 32 years old. He "had to" get rid of each one because it just wasn't right. I lost count of the cars/trucks he also dumped. I'm not suggesting anything other than if the dealer can't find anything wrong it doesn't mean they are blowing you off. Maybe they just can't feel it. | ||
| Rick_a |
It's a 3rd gen DDFI. I don't know the details, but along with going to a crank position sensor reading off the flywheel and eliminating the manual timing adjustment, the new ECM automatically zeros the TPS. | ||
| Loucksgl |
I need to just say this about the surge issue on the 08 Uly and then I'll quit until I get it back from dealer. I hear a lot of statements about lugging engine and rpm not high enough. I understand where thats coming from. Fact is; I can put in 1st gear and run 4000 rpm in a park lot on the level, throttle steady and it surges and jerks. I can put in 2nd gear and run 5000 rpm, steady throttle and surge and jerk. It doesn't matter. I just like 3 to 3500 rpm and I'm usually in 4th gear. It can be made to surge accept when a load is applied. Just wanted to clear that up. Won't take anymore space up here about this till I get it back from dealer. Thanks everyone for help and ideas. Nothing short of wonderful!!!! Keep this in mind as a thought. At Mt Mitchel over 6000 feet my Uly runs absolutely perfect. I can run all over that mountain at that altitude and she's dead on perfect in "every" way. Drop back to real world and surge away. Fuel delivery? We'll see..... (Message edited by loucksgl on October 12, 2007) | ||
| Hughlysses |
re: TPS reset not required Can you explain what they're doing now? The new system uses an idle air control valve (like many cars). The throttle shuts completely when you let off the gas and the ECM re-zeroes the TPS every time you do this. Idle speed is controlled by the ECM via the idle air control valve so manual setting of the idle speed isn't required either. Pretty cool! | ||
| Brumbear |
Just for shyts and less than giggles is the bike broken in yet and is the primary chain adjusted correctly that will definatley cause the bike to surge not the motor though so just check it if you can it would be a shame if itwas that and the dealer didn't look, and my xb12 ss had the same issues and was popping until it broke in then no problems I was upset for a while but around 2k miles after a tps reset 2 times all was well. I also started gapping my plugs at .038 a little girgle on coast but way less pinging | ||
| Brumbear |
Sorry just reread the primary already checked |
