| Author |
Message |
    
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:13 pm: | 
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Me,.. ? .. I stumbeled along as a average club racer for two before finding a 750 factory racer. I was never great and never rode any big races. I only ran my H2R about three times at the track before wadding it up. My favorite thing was Sat track days at Riverside. I was racing 80-83 AFM and ARRA.
I never rose to the level I aspired to, I was never as good as I would to like to remember myself as. But I was there, I was following it, and I worked myself into a point where I was doing it. I did reach a level where I could do a controlled 2 wheel drift on certain corners each lap with Goodyear slicks. I have never been able to do that on any street bike, but now I'm old and slow.
I'm sure there is a lot more that went on than I ever knew, but the 750's were just too fast for the chassis/tire/suspension of the late 70's, the RW 750's were eagerly awaited by the racing puplic to put the privateers on equal status with the factory bikes (O31's at that time?). and it's true that 500's were harder to find,... hmmmm
Perhaps it was a conspiricy then to keep EricB from challenging them?
top speeeds:
I never had a gun on me there, but I'd put an honest estimate of 155-160, back straight of Riverside, long course. I actually got tunnel vision, the accelration just warped me past 1000 4 cyl's, what a rush.
now then.... as far as this reference to 149mph ?? I did that on my XL streetbike. I've gone 176 mph on Roadkill and my new racebike will push that up some.... what do you got ??
don't point to Aaron,.. what do YOU got ?
(Message edited by jssport on May 29, 2003, %time) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:19 pm: |
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Blake, first check since new server. Hell day at work.
quote:You seem to think the force required to close a valve at 15K rpm is insignificant. It is about the same as the force required to compress a valve spring that is designed to start floating at just over 15K rpm.
No shit. Read the post again. On a spring return valvetrain, the spring must ALWAYS provide enough force to return the spring at maximum rpm (before float). Sorry if that was not clear.
quote:Frictional losses at the cam/follower are relative to the viscous lubrication film thickness, the oil's viscosity, and the sliding speed of the cam and follower. Force does not directly enter the equation.
Even if you assume contant thick-film hydrodynamic lubrication, there is a force component in the equation for a plain bearing's coeff of friction. However, I thought that cam followers were more mixed or boundary lubrication, where friction is higher (and more of a concern).
quote:Thanks for having the balls and thoughtfullness to offer actual answers.
Just checked, both still there.  |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:20 pm: |
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I think he's got a very fast Turbo... |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 09:25 pm: |
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The H2R was the last GP-750 / F1 bike to be based on a street legal engine. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 10:11 pm: |
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Tularis here in the US would be one example. AMAPR rules keep the Big Boys safe from the upstarts.
You're joking aren't you. A 2 stroke snowmobile on wheels....!
I'm curious. Have you ever heard the word facetious?
Never. ? Is it a French word? Guess it's banned in the US then?
As I recall the rules said the VR1000 had to be street legal and 50 in existence right? somewhere in the world, HD picked Poland. How was that cheating?
Well ok sorry, maybe not cheating. Maybe the rules were somewhat relaxed, so how many VR thou's do you know of in Poland? Better still, how many do HD know of? Please don't pretend to know because you'll end up sounding stupid won't you?
I don't imagine Foggy Pet had much trouble getting declared legal in Malaysia either.
Tell you what Greg, you're talking shit now and I wonder why you would do that? Personally I don't much care for Foggy or his success but one thing he is not is a cheat. Those FP1's exist and yes they were built in Malaysia and have passed 'type approval' and other tests and yes you will not have to go to Poland to find you CAN'T get one. Read my lips THEY ARE FOR SALE TO YOU, ME OR ANYONE ELSE THAT WANTS ONE. Incidentally there are rumours abound that more may be built after the initial 150 homo models, but like I said, RUMOURS.
"To the Big 4 homo bike budgets are pocket change."
Are you kidding??? Honda is a multi-billion dollar corporation and has budgeted more than $150 million for their RCV GP bike alone. As to the cooperation between Kawasaki and Suzuki, according to their own claims, it does not include any of their sportbikes.
You may well be right but it is a well reported fact that the Japanese bike manufacturers in recent times have not been without their financial problems, culminating in cutbacks in racing, and Kawasaki's revival is due to their tie-up with Suzuki, or so I read somewhere. I haven't heard those figures you've quoted for the RCV but for all I know they might have spent $250 million on previous efforts.
Anyway, this is about as useful as the Pope's balls. Buell don't build a race bike to gain street cred so I ain't gonna stand in Buells corner and champion them for something they aren't even in, but in my book if EB is the racer he claims to be he must have a very good fucking reason to argue the toss for a mere handful of die hard Buell racers coz they're all he's got to show for his (lack of) factory effort.
Rocket  |
S320002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 11:13 pm: |
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"We want it to be simpler. And we already have enough brands in there..." Dear Lord I hope that's somewhere on tape! It certainly clarifies a lot!
Its same reason so many many movies suck. "We have enough stars! They get buckets of money! We don't need any supporting actors, they might end up being better than the stars!"
Dyna,
When you meet someone on the street do you ask for their ID before you will believe what they say?
Blake,
Don't worry, the real anon won't be scared off. He might get pissed at the stupidity and walk out of the room, to do something more useful, but he doesn't give up.
Greg |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
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Rocket,
"You're joking aren't you. A 2 stroke snowmobile on wheels....!"
A MOTORCYCLE that beat Japan's best.
"I'm curious. Have you ever heard the word facetious?
Never. ? Is it a French word? Guess it's banned in the US then?"
Sorry mate its from the latin <facetus> meaning witty.
"Maybe the rules were somewhat relaxed, so how many VR thou's do you know of in Poland? Better still, how many do HD know of? Please don't pretend to know because you'll end up sounding stupid won't you?"
When I was in Poland (they had an iron curtain then so don't tell the Russians) it was well before the VR was built. I have however seen at least six street versions of the VR1000 here in the US.
"Anyway, this is about as useful as the Pope's balls."
After what I have read lately I would suggest the the Pope's gonads are much more useful than the AMAPR "organization".
Greg |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:36 am: |
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Dyna,
I have two brothers who ride Dynas and one who rides a Springer. All have also ridden a Buell. How do I know you're not one of them? After all I haven't seen your face.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:42 am: |
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Ben,
Yeah, no sh#t. So at low engine speeds the desmo valvetrain will not require as much power to actuate the valves as a spring return actuated valvetrain, but as engine speed increases the two systems' power requirements converge. Where do racing engines spend most of their time?
Dyna,
I deleted your last post. No real reason, I just felt like changing the rules here. Your post didn't fit in with all the other posts here, so I just deleted it. The topic was getting to complicated. |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:58 am: |
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Dang Blake! Now my post makes it sound like I'm talking to myself. Oh well, been there. Done that.
Greg
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S320002
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 03:38 am: |
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Dyna,
I'm not impressed. You took a self righteous hack at Blake. How about answering the question? I was the one who asked.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 04:02 am: |
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Sorry Greg,
Dyna doesn't get it. I'm hoping he'll see the light here soon enough.
Dyna,
Sorry, felt like deleting the last one too. You have a VERY valid point, but I don't think it fit in this topic, so I deleted it. It sucks to have someone change the rules with little to no notice thereby nullifying your time invested and efforts expended, doesn't it? |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 05:44 am: |
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Dyna,
You should feel comfortable in being compared to the AMAPR crew. Neither one of you has shown any indication of logical brain function in regard to the subject of motorcycle road racing.
To answer my own question;
Unless one of my Dyna-riding brothers has gone brain dead recently, I can safely say I don't know you even though I can't see you.
Sorry if that seems harsh but it hasn't cost either one of us what AMAPR has cost the sport.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 06:49 am: |
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Sorry, did it again.  |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 07:50 am: |
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Where do they converge? Just before valve float? Do you run your racebike at the limiter all the way around the track? Doesn't a race engine work better off corners if it has better midrange? The difference may be small, but every hp (or increment thereof) helps when everyone is pushing the limits.
Tularis beating Japan's best? Were there any NSR500's in that race? RCV's? How bout Japan's not-so-best, the GSVR? Come on. The Tularis is an acheivement, to be sure. But "beating Japan's best"? Don't think so. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 08:10 am: |
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A MOTORCYCLE that beat Japan's best.
HuH, when did it beat Rossi, must have missed the MotoGP race, please let me know, i would be interested in buying that tape?
When I was in Poland (they had an iron curtain then so don't tell the Russians) it was well before the VR was built. I have however seen at least six street versions of the VR1000 here in the US.
After the racing effort was over, this from my understanding was in the paperwork that was signed with every sale of the VR1000, there is one at UKES, but i belive it was brought over or not displayed until after there racing effort had failed
I deleted your last post. No real reason, I just felt like changing the rules here. Your post didn't fit in with all the other posts here, so I just deleted it. The topic was getting to complicated
No Blake, but you have moved posts, mid conversation mind you, so that is similar, but different, i could of course point out the post if you like
Dyna,
You should feel comfortable in being compared to the AMAPR crew. Neither one of you has shown any indication of logical brain function in regard to the subject of motorcycle road racing.
Is there a real need for personal atacks???2 wrongs do not make a right, three lefts on the other hand
One other point i would like to bring up, that for some reason no one had dared, or maybe care to consider, the AMAPR regulates other forms of racing, including but not limited to Dirt track racing, now at the last Spring mile, i saw nothing but HD in the final(i may have missed one) so what does this say about the rules reguarding flat track, is the AMA only going to allow HD to win, are they anti Jap, or what, maybe you should consider the big picture sometimes
Roger |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 08:27 am: |
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Its no big deal Roger
Yes it is a big deal, i find this thread very interesting, and in reality there is no need for personal atacks, it in no way improves the conversation, and/or help any cause in any way, everyone is going to have there opinion on the subject, and in reality non of them are wrong in any true sence, however as soon as it gets personal, it shows a short sightedness that surpasses the entire point, and relegates the entire argument to a pissing contest, one that no one learns or grows from
As far as the Anon thing, again there are good points and bad ones, remeber HD people are not allowed to post, if they did they could loss there job, hence the reason for an annon button, and realistically it has been helpfull at times, sometimes it helps to step out and look at a subject from all sides
Roger |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 09:36 am: |
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Thank you Roger. 
Dyna,
Sorry, deleted your posts again. They just didn't conform to I want to see on this page. If you'll comport your posts to conform exactly with what I want, I may allow them to stand among the others. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 10:04 am: |
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Okay, call it "Japan's best Superbikes" and then we can all agree. Won't that be a miracle.
Ben,
Well if desmodromics is any kind of significant advantage I'm surprised F1 teams aren't making use of it. I guess pneumatic return is optimum of all. Don't get me wrong, I think desmo is the coolest thing there is for a valve return mechanism. I just don't see it as a significant advantage in a racebike. Too bad we'll probably never get to see a 999RS go head to head with a VTR1000SP in a world class venue. The big Duc and Baylis sure were putting the hurt on Honda and Edwards there for a while last year. Too bad all the Japanese factory teams dropped out of WSB this year. I wonder why they dumped WSB but stuck with AMAPR SB? Could it be that the rules set by AMAPR are WAY more favorable for Japan Inc.. Do you think Japan Inc is trying to make a point, throw their weight around a bit? NAH can't be. Why would they do that? QUACK!!!
Dang! Was that a duck I heard? Sounds like a duck... looks like a duck...
...then it must be desmo.  |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
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Too bad all the Japanese factory teams dropped out of WSB this year. I wonder why they dumped WSB but stuck with AMAPR SB? Could it be that the rules set by AMAPR are WAY more favorable for Japan Inc..
Now Blake you know that honda dropped the WSBK program, in order to put all there support in MotoGP racing, they have said that time and time again, the reason they stuck around the US is for advertising, you seem determined to make the AMAPR out to be the worst of the worst, when in reality they have a very difficult job, belive what you like, belive what you may, but after MotoGP has been given back to Honda, they will be back next year along with all the manufacturereon liter bikes
Kawi will have a 1000cc 4
honda will have the same
and suzuki will back a facory effort, all at the WSBK level, and B.Bostrom will be on one of them, maybe even Eric, unless of course he goes to MotoGp with Kawi
Roger |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 12:37 pm: |
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Roger -- while the AMA rules did likely favor HD a while back in terms of flat track racing, they no longer do -- witness the lack of HD products in the winner's circle any TT, most short tracks, and many half miles . . .. HD still owns the miles, but it's not due to rules, its due to the enormous amount of knowledge that exists on making XR750s competitive in that form of racing.
the long and the short of it is that no one else has been willing to spend the money required to place a competitice entry (or team of them) in miles since Honda . . . . .
all this has little to do with AMAPR's goodness or lack thereof on paved course competition, as they've been pretty much ignoring flat-track for a long time . .. .pluses and minuses to that, of course, but there seems to be some renewed interest in dirttracking lately (especially from a couple of non-US manufacturers, which is very cool, indeed_ |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:07 pm: |
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Roger -- while the AMA rules did likely favor HD a while back in terms of flat track racing, they no longer do --
Guess your right, except for:
Top Riders
HARLEY-DAVIDSON SPORTSTER PERFORMANCE
No. Name Hometown Sponsors Bike Size
2B JON PAUL JAY SHELTON PINE GROVE , PA MATTOCYCLE.COM / KTM / ELF / AGV / TAG / RONNY KEMP RCNG / DP / LBZ / DAWNZ HAIR ARTISTRY
11C SHANEP FOX STATESVILLE , NC TILLEY H-D / MOTUL / SIMPSON / HILLTOP MULCH / MITCHELL MASONRY / NEIL TAYLOR / WISECO
11X STEPHANIE L WELCH FLINT , MI FAST FORWARD RAC / UNIVERSAL COATING / GLOBAL PROD / SILKOLENE / MOTION PRO / O'BRIEN RACING PROD / J&M / COMETIC / SADDLEMEN / SUPERTRAPP / MOTHERS / WORKS CONN / SIDI / GRAMS
18P JOSHL TOUNGETT EAST PEORIA , IL GUTTERRIDGE H-D / AUPPERLE / DPC / REIMAN'S HD / TORCO / WISECO / COMETIC
19G BEN SIUDARA ARROYO HONDO , NM BELL RACING / H-D OF YOUNGSTOWN / TAOS SPA & HEALTH CLUB
23F CHARLIE M ITALIA CUYAHOGA FALLS , OH LZ RACING / F&S H-D / KK / CAVEMAN PLATES
33A SHAWNC BAER MECHANICSBURG , PA BATTLEFIELD H-D / BRP / PRO PLATES / ZECHMAN'S CYCLE / DITCHERS
33W ERIC RICKMAN KENT , WA AUPPERLE RAC / BBRP / EASTSIDE HD / MC WORKS OF RENTON / BROKEN B RANCH / PEIROLI RAC / GEARBOX INT / SADDLEMEN / SUOMY / MOTION PRO / K&N / FLY / D MAHLER / MAX / HLEBO BROS SUSP / MICKEY FAY PRESENTS / LIGHT SHOE / J RIDDLE RAC / MOBILE ONE OIL / MARC'S AUTO / VISUAL MEDIA SOL / WESTERN POWERSPORTS / SCOTT / OURY / AFAM
38N MICHAEL A MEYER LITTLE ROCK , AR ROEDER HD / SHOEI / JONES HD / JR MC-AUTO / JOHNNY RAMSEY / ROBERT MEYER CONST / SPECIAL THANKS TO GEORGE ROEDER SR
42 BRYAN SMITH FLINT , MI KK / DOC'S HD / F&S HD / MOTION PRO / MAX LTHS / OXTAR / SUPERTRAPP / RED LINE / MOTHERS / K&N / PAUL LASKO / DICK FORD
43J TODDM PERKINS TOLEDO , OH Q'S LAST STOP MOTORCYCLE REPAIR / BAD BRUSH MOTORSPORTS / DEE'S LTHS
52C NOOT IRVIN SWAINSBORO , GA THUMBS UP RACING / AUGUSTA H-D / PBW RACING / JEFF HENRY / TILLEY HD / GENE & GAIL CUMMINGS / J&M
54 CORYM MCDERMITT BRECKENRIDGE , MI MCDERMITT RAC / LIMA HARLEY / NAGEL EQUIP / FAMILY & FRIENDS
55S TIMMYW MITCHELL WIRTZ , VA TILLEY HD / MOTUL / WORKS / LIQUID PERF / SIMPSON / FAST PLATES / HOT SHOES BY GEORGE / HILLTOP MARKET / LITZ RACING / PRO ACTION
68 ROBERT A LEWIS TARBORO , NC CAPE FEAR H-D / H-D OF HIGH POINT / H-D OF GREENSBORO / JMK RAC / DENNIS THURLOW / SIMPSON HELMETS / K&N / MOTION PRO / ACTION CYCLE / BERRY'S LANDSCAPING / WEBB DESIGNS / C&F MACH
72C DEANS STANDISH ROSWELL , GA ATLANTA MOTORWORLD / SSD / HAS RACING / OCONEE COLLISION / SIMPSON
75E RONALD D KEMP CARY , NC DENNIS THURLOW RACING / CAPE FEAR HD / J2 / STEVE PETERSON ENG
77A SCOTTE STUMP WARMINSTER , PA SMOKIN MOES / SIMONS PERFORMANCE / SIMPSON HELMETS / MRT / MAGNUM AUTO / MAX LINDEMANN / ROGER GUTTERIDGE / FRIEZE H-D / WORKS PERFORMANCE
81G BRETB SOWDERS BETHANY , OK METRO HOME BLDRS / ADAMS RAC / MAXEY'S CYCLE / HOT PLTS / HOEL MACH / 4-STAR TRLRS / D&L INVESTMENTS
92P BRIAN THOMAS FREEBURG , IL JIM WAGNER / MARK COFFMAN / K&N / WORKS PERF / TSUBAKI / MOTION PRO / SUPERTRAPP / KNYSAK SIGNS / DOC'S HD / MAXIE SHOES / RT / TODD PRY / FINANCIAL RESOURCES OF AMERICA / BELLEVILLE ENDURO TEAM
96P JOHN FAULKNER MARION , IL FRIEZE HD / ROWE / WORKS / SIMPSON / MAX / FAST PLATES / NACE / MOTION PRO
Funny, dont see much more than one kinda bike in this class, maybe i will look a little more
Roger
edited by blake on May 30, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:10 pm: |
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Roger,
Point taken, but isn't Europe, and Australia, and S. Africa a MUCH bigger market for sport bikes than America? Isn't America's two wheeled market dominated by cruisers? And doesn't the WSB series visit America? Seems to me the overwhelmingly logical venue as far as optimum marketing value was WSB, not AMAPR SB. I could be wrong, but all the facts point that way as I look at them. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:15 pm: |
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Roger,
The first racer seems to be riding a KTM. Funny, it would seem to be a "Sportster" class. :dunno:I didn't look much further. But please, no more mongo regurgitations of grid sheets okay? A simple hyperlink is much preferred. Thanks.
edited by blake on May 30, 2003 |
Bomber
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 01:22 pm: |
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rog, again, the predominance of HD in flat-track or dirttarack is due more to the knowledge base rather than rules . . .
another factor is sponsorship money . . . . lots of HD dealers sponsoring privateer entries, few non-HD dealers do so . . . . .Suzuki is moving up in the dirtrack world a little, but damn little sponsorship money available
just cuz the field is mostly HD doesn't mean it's a rules thing . . . . more to the point is the knowldge thing, and the fact that few other brands have a suitable model to base a race bike off . . .. if HD didn't already have the XR750, Id bet that there wouldn't be a factory presence in this form oa racing at all (given Juneau Ave's apparent lack of interest in competition overall) |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 02:23 pm: |
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Point taken, but isn't Europe, and Australia, and S. Africa a MUCH bigger market for sport bikes than America?
You are correct, however read your own statement, you actually mentioned 3 seperate continents, along with assorted expensise involved in each, not the least of which would be logistics, i would bet money, that the cost of the entire ama series is less than 2 WSBK races, hence its a cheap tax write off of AMERICAN HONDA, and worth the effort, did you see the Honda ad, inn RRW, #1 in 3 races
rog, again, the predominance of HD in flat-track or dirttarack is due more to the knowledge base rather than rules . . .
I understand and agree, however if there was an advantage to one specific bike, either due to cost or speed most racers are willing to jump on it, see SS 750, where a racer can compete at a relatively low cost, on an abuntant and low cot machine
if HD didn't already have the XR750, Id bet that there wouldn't be a factory presence in this form oa racing at all
That was an 883 class, so the argument concerning the xr750 does not apply, however i am sure there are rules that favor HD in one respect or the other, i mean it is blatant, didnt you read the name of the class
HARLEY-DAVIDSON SPORTSTER PERFORMANCE
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
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Roger has got the formatting tags DOWN! Excellent work! That makes reading a multi point rebuttal so much easier. While you are at it, could you please also correct my dumbass East Texas hick grammar too? 
You have another excellent point. It's a cost versus benefit decision. I bet the fact that they wouldn't have to deal with a factory Ducati effort here in America and that the rules were more to their liking also entered significantly into the decision, you think? I mean from a business perspective it was rather brilliant. Japan Inc leaves Ducati to claim a completely hollow victory in WSB, while racing each other in AMAPR where they are a hit with all their fans, and where they get to beat up on a shabby Ducati team to boot. It's a Win, win, win for Japan Inc. It's a lose-lose for WSB and Ducati.  |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 03:29 pm: |
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I bet the fact that they wouldn't have to deal with a factory Ducati effort here in America and that the rules were more to their liking also entered significantly into the decision, you think?
Was there ever a real factory effort in the US??? Did italy ever send over a true factory team to the US, with a current year bike, and group of machanics, or was it more of a hodge podge deal(HMC for example, using last years bike from WSBK) i really dont know, now another thing to consider, do you think, just maybe, Ducati was looking for a way out of SS 600 class, they never really had a team here, didnt show much effort, didnt really sponsor a racer that i know of, maybe AMA was pushing for a rebutal to the SS600 class from Ducati, just to see if they had any interest, if not, so be it, but you can not force a company to go racing(yea this is far out but something to consider)
Roger |
José_quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 03:38 pm: |
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Some privateer named Pascal Picotte is in the top 10 in AMA supersport practice times at Pikes peak, and a bunch of 600's are in the top 10 practice times in the Superstock class......
It's the rider, but even a great rider can't make a 450 pound, 76hp bike go around the track faster than a 415 pound, 100 hp bike.....
edited by josé_quiñones on May 30, 2003
edited by josé_quiñones on May 30, 2003 |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 04:04 pm: |
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Come on José. It's both rider and machine. Pascal likes Pike Peak for sure. Remember when he actually led the SB race on the VR? Ended up finishing 2nd I think. That was the last race for the VR wasn't it? Was a pretty good way to finish I suppose. |
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