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Typeone
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 02:36 pm: | 
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interesting thread.. . so people want 'home grown', 'USA made' but refuse to wait for quality craftsmanship. how long do members potentially wait for a Drummer SS? a while, but that's OK and their still happy to support Kevin, suffer the wait then proudly strap that pipe on when it finally arrives months later. all is well.
jack that up a notch where Drummer is supplying pipes around the world, still from the small USA shop, but layer in the hordes of competitors who can mass produce the 'same' product and ship it out that afternoon. so where goes the desire to purchase a true US, hand-made product? out the window for convenience.
i agree the article has a bizarre angle, but i don't disregard the comments supposedly made by European reps concerning USA perception over there. if that statement is anywhere near true, its VERY interesting. is the war alone the cause for Vanson potential failure? no. but neither is slow service. nothing is ever that black and white.
a few years back they looked into moving portions of the business overseas to save money and stay working. i can only imagine the threads and hate mail b*tching about the 'made in the usa' tags. (American Motorcycles tagline might ring a few bells too)
for me, i'll continue to support Vanson until there is no more Vanson. i'm proud to own a true hand-made in the US of A, top-quality, protective garment. touring the factory on a work day and talking with workers really brings things into perspective. same thing happened to me after touring the Buell factory.
on with your rants... i, for one, feel for the co and all the people associated with it.
Thank you Vanson Gang, this MassHole rider is routing for you!
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Chellem
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 03:18 pm: |
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We're not talking a simple wait for a few weeks. THAT would not be a problem by itself. When I say "customer service problems", I'm talking about a lack of follow-through, follow-up, and basic communications. We tried to get a line of custom-made jackets - a LINE of them - and waited over 2 YEARS while various salespeople took their time calling us back. Granted, it was only a$5-6,000 order, but, I mean, we tried to give them that money for literally 2 years.
I don't think people have any problem PAYING for the quality. But, yes, asking people to wait 4-6-8+ weeks for CATALOG ITEMS (Not custom made items, mind you, CATALOG items) is, in most people's minds, unreasonable.
And, BTW, WE'RE the ones who get yelled at by dissatisfied customers.
I also hope they improve. My point is that sitting around waiting for the war to end is NOT a good solution to their problem.
BTW, I believe H-D's international sales are still up. And I have to think that people STRONGLY associate H-D with AMERICA. So if international sentiment had that much of an impact on Vanson, shouldn't H-D be feeling it too?
I don't think they need to move factories overseas. If their sales are up that much, and they're SOOO backed up they can't keep up, couldn't they hire more people? At least, hire people to work the phones and follow up with customers? I know that's simplistic too, but, I mean, it seems more direct than say, blaming Bush.
I don't think anyone here wants to see them fail. I just get ruffled by someone laying their entire financial problem on the war.
"In the last few years, it has fallen to half that, and it’s all because their overseas market collapsed."
"“Every time you saw a picture of Abu Ghraib,” he said, “our sales dropped.”
Was there really so direct a connection?
“Absolutely,” he said. “Absolutely.” "
It's sheer rhetoric. For whatever this writer's political agenda is. The article is DRIPPING with it. It's ridiculous. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 03:37 pm: |
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i hear ya, Chellem, i'm not saying i'm right and your wrong, only adding my viewpoint. the war stuff is a never ending debate in itself, i dont agree with what we've done, and i have no clue to what extent it has or has not effected Vansons business. perhaps the comments are over the top, perhaps they're not. i personally don't know. all i'll say on that.
my main point.. . the factory is pretty damn small. not sure they could afford to just throw bodies at the supply problem. and yes, technically they are 'catalog' items, but all those catalog items are hand-made too. all i saw when i was there was actual people working the water jet, manually carting stuff around, etc. etc. small time. if you ever visit, you'll be like, 'WTF, this is THE Vanson factory?' as you pull around to the cracked pavement and weed filled parking lot.
i also agree with you that years of waiting is a difficult thing to deal with. i can only speak from my experience, which has always been great, but i'm lucky enough to be able to just drive out there and browse the racks. i went direct to Wisconsin for my Buell too (thanks Dave!) to get closer to the source.
just some coins...
EDIT: btw, i've sold or given away every Joe Rocket jacket I've owned which I think is up to 4 now. i gave up after the last one. uncomfortable, wore out fast and some models don't have very good crash protection. same 'ol you get what you pay for.
(Message edited by typeone on August 08, 2007) |
Diablobrian
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 06:24 pm: |
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I agree that slow delivery is probably not the ONLY element that needs to be addressed I just meant to say blaming
their troubles on Presidential policies is less plausible than looking inward at their organization.
Of course it is always easier for certain personality types to point the finger at others than to accept responsibility for
their own failings instead of learning from them.
I do have a Joe Rocket mesh/leather "Reactor" 2 piece that I wear in very hot weather, but when the chips are
down I trust my Firstgear 2 piece perforated leather FAR more. If I could afford a custom suit I'd still be looking
for Vanson type quality. Off the rack standard sizes should not take months to get in. It even too 5-6 weeks
for my order to come in when I ordered a bunch of the rubber Buell patches.
Some people are incapable of saying "My bad" |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 06:52 pm: |
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I have heard back from Mr. Friedman and I've asked him if has any objections to my posting his response on Badweb. It does answer many of the questions that we all have -- not all, but many. |
Prubert
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 08:59 pm: |
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American made motorcycle protective gear industry is suffering due to the war...hummm, somebody better tell that to the folks up in Duluth, MN @ Aerostich. |
Tombo
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 09:58 pm: |
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There is a lot to like about Vanson, great design, great quality. Not only is the owner domestically based, but a true motorcycle enthusiast. I can't comment on the slow service issue, other than to say that has not been my own experience, but it sounds like many have experienced this and Vansaon will need to deal with the consequences of that. But I would hate to lose an American made option because of comments that "appear" to be critical of Bush (could also be read as simply conveying critisism they are hearing with a journalist controlling the context). Can you imagine the comments about Bush being made by employees of competitor products being made in the Middle East? Would you factor that into your next purchase? Nothing against imported products in of themselves, but many countries we import from do not have to comply with environmental laws, safety laws, child labor laws, etc.. Perhaps this is a good lesson not to have your bean-counter represent anything related to your companies ethos. |
Daves
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 10:13 pm: |
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I love my Vanson leathers.
We own about 3000.00 worth
I have sold 10s of thousands worth. Could've sold lots more if they weren't such a pain in the ass to deal with.
Their service has sucked for years.
They have to know that it does(trust me, I have made it quite clear to them on many occasions).
They have not fixed it, whatever the problem is.
If I would've sold Buells the way they sell leathers I'd have sold about 1 Buell per year. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |
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but Dave, what if the 'Elves' (if i'm using that term correctly) couldn't HAND CRAFT bikes as fast as you could sell them?
it's so easy for us to debate on an internet forum how a company should or shouldn't run their business without digging into our own pockets to fund what we feel would 'solve' the issue. at the drop of a hat, mind you.
i've known of the Vanson issues for years as well, i just can't bring myself to cut those local works short. business is a dirty sport.
Bigdaddy, I hope you can post your e-conversation, we're all interested to hear the details. |
Chellem
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 11:45 pm: |
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Here's my problem, well, my MAIN problem with the "Everyone-hates-Americans-so-my-internationa-busin ess-is-down-70%" theory. And I was speaking about this with the dealer principal today, who was quite unimpressed with this article.
Vanson is an American company. OK. I dig that there are American flag patches in the jackets. People hate America, or Americans, or whatever, so they can't sell their jackets.
Shouldn't that be true of ALL, or at least, MOST American products?
What about a fairly readily accepted symbol of American-ness, a Harley-Davidson motorcycle, or, Harley-Davidson part, accessory or clothing item? Shouldn't that be shunned as well by the American-bashing international community?
Check these quotes from the 2nd quarter financial press release (available on h-d.com):
"...with U.S. dealers' sales down 5.5 percent and international retail sales growing at double digit rates. Retail sales in every major country in Europe were up during the quarter, resulting in 13.7 percent growth in total European sales. Japan, Canada, and all other international markets grew at a combined rate of 13.4 percent," he said. "
Also:
"Retail sales of Harley-Davidson motorcycles grew 13.6 percent in international markets during the second quarter of 2007 compared to the second quarter of 2006. Second quarter retail sales increased 13.7 percent in Europe; Canada was up 9.9 percent; and Japan was up 5.2 percent. All other international markets combined were up 27.4 percent."
So, it seems, the same international community who stopped buying Vanson jackets to protest American-ness are lapping up H-D (and Buell) stuff in double-digit increases.
I'm not saying it is completely unrelated, I just can't believe that with the feedback I've heard from other dealers and other customers, that Vanson can truly believe that this war is the MAIN reason for the financial woes. They'd have more of MY money too, if they could just fill an order in a timelier manner.
Or send me a Mechanic shirt when I need one, instead of 5-6 weeks later. (A mechanic shirt made in Bangledesh, BTW)
Full financials are available on h-d.com. Here's a link that MIGHT work:
http://investor.harley-davidson.com/ReleaseDetail. cfm?ReleaseID=254991&bmLocale=en_US |
Typeone
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 08, 2007 - 11:59 pm: |
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you're putting too much stock in one article. that's like watching FOX News to determine what's really going on.
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Chellem
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 12:06 am: |
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Well, frankly, I do prefer Fox news. But that's another story.
It's not just "an article". It's the quarterly financial report released by Harley-Davidson themselves, as a report to their shareholders and the general public, with raw data attached, if people would like.
Anyway, it's more closely related to facts than the article that spawned this thread.
Or should I say "hijacked", since this thread was SUPPOSED to be about the awesome new Buell Turbulent Jacket, now available at Liberty Buell and on our website. :P |
Typeone
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 12:19 am: |
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no, i meant too much stock in the Vanson article. s'ok though, you're right, we are WAY off topic so.. . long live Vanson, death to FOX News and Joe Rocket sucks. (my damn fairly new Hooligan gloves are ripped already from PULLING THEM ON)
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Cyclonedon
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 01:40 am: |
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Fox News is a huge waste of one's time! I'd rather be out riding my motorcycle! |
Bigdaddy
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 09:19 am: |
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Hey Dave, I actually used your, the ones I knew of, issues when I wrote Vanson.
Typeone, I sent a private email and he, Friedman, replied in kind. My own personal ethics code does not allow me to publicize private conversation. We'll see. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 10:00 am: |
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I'm with Michelle.
I accept that Vanson is a company making top quality gear.
Their executive said some really stupid stuff.
Folks tend to extrapolate and when a person says stupid stuff they, and with some basis in fact, figure the person does other stupid things.
If the myopic person who made those statements is charting Vanson's future, their ship is headed for the rocks.
I speak, 7 or 8 times a week, to Buell folks in Dubai, Amsterdam, London and Milan and have yet to have anyone take the American people to task for the acts of our leaders.
He spoke unwisely.
Court |
Daves
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 02:50 pm: |
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Clinton,
There were many times that the Elves couldn't keep up with me!
They actually worked on the the issues and solved most of them.
The Elves were great to work with, gave real time lines, and were honest, even when they had to tell me things I didn't want to hear.
I cannot say the same thing for Vanson.
Hey, I am rooting for them as much as anyone. As I stated, I love my Vanson leathers. I wish they were as good at running a company as they are at making leathers. |
Typeone
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 03:06 pm: |
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Hey, I am rooting for them as much as anyone. As I stated, I love my Vanson leathers. I wish they were as good at running a company as they are at making leathers.
agreed. hoping things make a turn for the better. |
Ft_bstrd
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 05:56 pm: |
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“You see those Buell jackets?” he asked. He was pointing to a rack of jackets with American flags on each shoulder. They’re part of the Harley line of goods.
“We used to sell tons of those to Europe,” said Friedman. “We MIGHT SELL A TON MORE IF WE GOT OFF OUR BUTTS AND ACTUALLY GOT THEM INTO THE F'N BUELL DEALERSHIPS."
Vanson has NO ONE to blame but themselves. I just tuned into this thread and can not believe the article. I WANT to buy American made products but not if I have to put up with the delays and lack of product availability.
I would say that the European dealers are no different than the US dealers in that they can't sell what they don't have. |
Crusty
| | Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 09:00 pm: |
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I bought my first Vanson jacket in the spring of 1982 when they were still located on Thayer St. in Boston. I bought several more over the years. Both for myself, and for others. The first jacket I ordered took 12 weeks to make. One that I bought for a girlfriend was ordered on Oct 3, and we picked it up on December 23.
Vanson has always been slow.
They make some damned nice jackets, though. |
Chellem
| | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:20 pm: |
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I bought my first Vanson jacket in the spring of 1982 when they were still located on Thayer St. in Boston. I bought several more over the years. Both for myself, and for others. The first jacket I ordered took 12 weeks to make.
So, what your saying is, they're still backed up from 1982? No WONDER it takes so long!
:P |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Friday, August 10, 2007 - 12:28 pm: |
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Vanson made absolutely no attempt at fixing the problem if it existed in 1982. I understand short term back orders or delays. But the same problem 25 years later.
Ridiculous. |
Tintin74
| | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 01:51 pm: |
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Back to the turbulent jacket:
Assuming it is done by Joe Rocket, the Honda one has a very different back:
http://www.joerocket.com/productH.cfm?products_id= 801
Also though the price is similar, the Buell one doesn't seem to include the armor. Last but not least, if the back is changed, does it still have an 8" zipper to connect to pants ? |
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