| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
RoadRacing World is reporting that Jeremy McWilliams has tested the Moto Czysz C1 at Miller Motorsports Park and remarked that it was the best turning bike he'd ever ridden. So apparently the counter-rotating crankshafts idea has serious merit, just like it did in the Buell RW750 Barton based engine. Exciting news for the Czysz team for sure. It will be great to see them get it on the track and racing. That cannot be too far off. Would be cool to see it face off against an XBRR in a CCS GP race or something like that. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Blake why would it be cool to see a Moto Czysz C1 stomp the living snot out of a Buell XBRR? I can picture that race in my mind and it has both bikes at the start with the Moto Czysz C1 comfortably in the lead by the second lap and then the Buell pulling into the pits on lap twelve with a tranny or crank problem or something. I have chatted several times to Steve Crevier who races the XBRR for Deeley's here in Canada and his comments about the bike are not entirely flattering. | ||
| Blake |
Paul, You may not have heard the good news. It has been very cool to read about Buell XBRRs beating Ducati's and Aprilia's literbike class machines in the French Pro-Twins series--XBRR racers have won the last five races against some tough competition including a former GP racer on a Ducati 1098--not to mention the field of Japan Inc entries in the ASRA endurance race at Road America last year and of course the lead-off win at Daytona that Rico Penzkofer pulled over that former World Superbike racer on his Ducati 999R Superbike. Almost forgot myself... this year's Daytona 200 finish after being crashed out no less with Walt Sipp running his Bison Racing XBRR up with the top six lap times at the end of the race. It's strange how you are so eager to assign such prowess to the yet to be raced C1 while ignoring the actual accomplishments of the XBRR. What evidence do you have that the unproved C1 powertrain will hold up to the rigors of a race weekend? It would also be interesting on account of it would be a $100K machine up against the $30K Buell. (Message edited by blake on June 22, 2007) | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
LEXINGTON , Ohio (Oct. 3, 2006) – Deeley Harley-Davidson/Buell Canada’s Steve Crevier and Warr’s of London Harley-Davidson/Buell rider Jeremy McWilliams qualified aboard Buell XBRR motorcycles for the Formula Xtreme national during the final round of the 2006 AMA Superbike Championship held at the Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course. But both Buell riders suffered disappointing results during the 16-lap race. McWilliams qualified 11th for the event, while Crevier qualified 17th in the field of 30 bikes. Yamaha USA rider Eric Bostrom led all qualifiers and took the point for pole position. McWilliams, who was 6th quickest in the morning warm-up, was forced to switch to his back-up XBRR after a small oil leak was discovered on his primary bike just before the start of the race. With no time on his backup bike, he was forced to retire after the first lap with an electrical problem. Crevier was racing in 14th place when he experienced a mechanical problem on lap five. German Rico Penzkofer Wins Buell XB-RR's First Race, At Daytona Mar 04, 2006 Rico Penzkofer (324) and his Buell of Hannover (Germany) XB-RR Firebolt. German rider Rico Penzkofer, 30, became the first man to win a race on a Buell XB-RR with a victory in the CCS Supertwins race at Daytona International Speedway Saturday. Penzkofer took the lead on the first lap of the six-lap contest but was passed mid-race by Dario Marchetti, a former World Superbike regular who was riding a Ducati 999RS Superbike. Thanks in part to the top speed advantage of his motorcycle, Marchetti led the second half of the sprint, but Penzkofer was able to stay close. On the final lap, Marchetti led into and out of the chicane and looked sure to hold his lead to the checkered flag. Marchetti was forced to back off, however, when his helmet visor began fogging as he approached a group of slower riders on the run from NASCAR Turn Four to the finish line. This allowed Buell of Hanover's Penzkofer to sneak through and take the XB-RR's first victory in its debut race weekend. "I hope it is not the last win for this bike - or for me," Penzkofer told Roadracingworld.com. Zemke Wins 2006 Daytona 200, With Hayes And DiSalvo Second And Third 64. Mike Ciccotto (Buell XB-RR), -66 laps, DNF, mechanical, $100 58. Steve Crevier (Buell XB-RR), -54 laps, DNF, mechanical, $200 54. Rico Penzkofer (Buell XB-RR), -43 laps, DNF, mechanical, $250 52. Jeremy McWilliams (Buell XB-RR), -31 laps, DNF, mechanical, $250 Buell dealer teams campaigned the XBRR in six other AMA Formula Xtreme events on the 2006 AMA Superbike series and earned two top-10 finishes; McWilliams finished eighth at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca on July 22, while Crevier placed ninth aboard an XBRR at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course on Aug. 5. These Buell dealer teams received support from Pirelli Tires, Sentry Insurance, Harley-Davidson Financial Services, Screamin' Eagle SYN3 Synthetic Motorcycle Lubricant, and Harley-Davidson Visa. In Europe, France’s Michel Amalric secured a dramatic win at the famous Bol d’Or event at Magny-Cours to beat a 39-bike field in the Pro-Twin Final aboard his Macadam Moto (Buell Montpellier) sponsored Buell XBRR. Amalric took the checkered flag 1.14 seconds ahead of Alain Cottard’s Aprilia RSV 1000 and 3.94 seconds ahead of Stephane Molinier’s third-place Ducati 999. So the race in France I'll give to the XBRR although the guys on the Aprilia Tuono were on a TUONO! Not a RSV factory race bike. Just a dealer sponsored bike slapped together at the last minute to race on a whim as I understand it. The Daytona win obviously was a stroke of luck that the Ducati rider had his visor fog up and he dropped back. As for the Moto Czysz, I have been following that effort and it seems like they are taking their time trying to put together a fairly well developed product before they release it. Time will tell. But the success of the XBRR has been nothing that I would be bragging about at this point. The XBRR is still a bike in development. When the RR actually gets competitive in formula extreme i'll be much happier for Buell. | ||
| Ducxl |
I think the next revolutionary Buell superbike will be Cysz powered. The Cysz engine would fit well in a XB type frame too. HEHE!! 'Ya never know what's next! | ||
| Fdl3 |
 Do we continually have to go through the exercise of both the pro-XBRR and anti-XBRR crowds citing press releases to support their positions? I mean, aren't press releases like statistics... Can't we find praise for both platforms?  | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Who said anything about not liking the XBRR? I think it's a super cool bike. If I had 30k to spend on one I'd do it. I'd be the king of the track at the Ducati Club of Canada track weekend at Mosport with that thing (they let Buells come out to play and allow membership). That being said, a nicely turned out and race prepped R6 would definitely be hard to drop given equal riders, tires etc. Of course a race prepped R6 would be about 10k less than the Buell, easier to maintain etc, etc. It just seems a bit silly to me try and flog an XBRR against anything other than BOTT type bikes, Guzzi's and Bimmers, and Ducks. When the XBRR came out I thought "Wow, cool a possible giant killer" At the end of the day though it's really no better performance wise than a kitted 600cc race bike. The BOTT stuff is fun to watch certainly and the sounds the twins make are heavenly but when you get right down to it the BOTT type racing is just a side show for the "main event racing" later in the day. I don't mind seeing the Buell's in the side show events but for once I'd like to see a Buell kick ass in the main event, instead of retiring on lap 15. Don't get me wrong I think the XBRR is great, I'm just getting tired of dashed hopes of Buell racing success against the big four. Kinda like Rocket! | ||
| Reepicheep |
(this is an honest question, I really don't know...) So, how much would it cost to take a stock R6 and make it put down 150HP at the wheel? Isn't that what the XBRR is hitting? And to be fair, the R6 probably should have to put out more like 160hp at the wheel peak, as it will have to overcome a peakier power curve that hurts it at lower RPMs. I'm guessing a stock R6 would need some significant suspension work to be anywhere near an XBRR as well.. and have a hard time imagining thats not $5k to $10k right there. I'm not trying to bait, I really don't know. | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Yeah 10k would give you an R6 with Ohlins suspension and around 140-150bwhp. | ||
| Elvis |
It will be interesting to see what happens with Motoczyzs. They're in a bit of a "no man's land". I wouldn't be surprised if they could be competitive in Superbike (after all, it's an exotic bike with exotic parts that doesn't have to meet the noise, polution or crash testing or other requirements of the bikes competing in Superbike). . . . but that's exactly why it won't be legal in Superbike (and after the AMA's experience with Harley, I don't know if they're anxious to re-visit that again . . . particularly without the payback of Harley riders in the stands that they had with Harley). So that means they may actually have to take a swing at Moto-GP. Does anyone really think they'll succeed there? Maybe with a LOT of money and several years of experience . . . but who's bank-rolling them until they get that experience? (keep in mind they don't even have . . . and apparently aren't even working on . . . the 800 cc engine they would need) I would imagine investors who gave them money when they promised to be competing in Moto-GP (last year? 2005?) are getting a little sick of seeing their money disappear with nothing to show for it. Say what you will about the XBRR, the simple fact is the XBRR has won more races than the Motoczsyz. | ||
| Spike |
If that's the case, what's with these reports of factory FX 600s costing $300k? Did somebody misplace a decimal point, or do the factory teams just not know where the good deals are? | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
You just answered your own question there Spike. A "FACTORY" team can easily spend way more than 300k on a bike but. I am talking about a privateer who wants to compete at the bottom rungs of the "professional" level here mostly from my experience here in Canada. Any of the big 4 manufactures will put you on a bike here if you wave your bike race license around for dealer cost. That's 10-12K CDN. Then you are looking at another 8-10k for engine mods, suspension, brakes and bodywork. So if you are a privateer as most race bike riders are you are looking at about 20k total for a new top level bike. Add another 20k minimum for tires, travel, gas and miscellaneous other bits to get you through a season, for the middle of the pack privateer just trying to get his fix on. As for Moto Czysz in MOTOGP. I know they have talked about it but there is no way that they could ever bank roll or technically support a MOTOGP effort at this very early stage in the game. Wouldn't it be cool if a motorcycle company like say......ummm....Harley Davidson picked them up and threw some money at them to let them do there thing and then bought an interest in them to produce roadgoing versions of their bikes for sale to the American public. Hmmmmm interesting idea. | ||
| Dbird29 |
I thought this thread was about the Moto Czysz bike.  I wonder if Jeremy was at Miller when we saw the Moto Czysz during the Inside Pass trackday? | ||
| Blake |
Report says he was there two days ago, on Wednesday. Hey Paul, I'd sure like to see one of those $20K 150RWHP 600cc bikes you are talking about. I think you may be exaggerating. Actually, I'm pretty sure you are exaggerating. You don't achieve a 40% increase in engine performance on a repli-racer of any sort for $10K. Gotta love the "my visor fogged" excuse, and only on the last lap approaching the finish. The Duc Superbike racer must have been really working and breathing hard trying to pass the XBRR on the Daytona main straight. LOL. You failed to acknowledge the Road America endurance race win, another 1-2 finish for XBRR racers. And you failed to mention the other four wins in the French Pro-Twins series, those ocurring in each of this year's races. So Buell racers are five of five in the French Pro-Twins series, and as stated have been competing against some very competitive entries including Ducati and Aprilia Superbikes, one of which is being raced by a former GP racer. Of course when some are asked to acknowledge success, they instead set the bar higher. For some, until/unless Buell win a MotoGP championship sweeping every race, every pol position, and setting new lap records at every track, with some average Joe in the seat, Buell Racing will be poo-poo'd as second rate. Well, you gotta get to the top by working your way up to it. Seems to me Buell is doing just that. I agree that the XBRR is still being developed. Is that a bad thing? Your opening comment seems to convey the view that XBRRs are not capable of finishing a race. That kind of comment as shown by numerous winning XBRR efforts, is not just ridiculously inaccurate, it is antagonistic and ignorant. I ask again, what makes you believe that the C1 engine, drivetrain, electrics, brakes, whatever will be able to endure the rigors of a race weekend? Care to guess how long the Buells running in FX at Daytona last year had been in development or how many racing miles had been accumulated by them prior to that event? I repeat, let the Czysz team bring their C1 to the next CCS/ASRA national race and line it up against all the other Unlimited GP machines and let's see how it does. Better than an XBRR? At this point, not likely. In another year or two, maybe. That will be what, at least four or five years in which the C1 has been in development? I'm rooting for the Czysz team big time. I really want to see them get on the track and racing, even at a local club level. It's time to pull the trigger and with Jeremy McWilliams being contracted to do some testing, I suspect that time is not too far off. Unless of course there is more to the recent McWilliams round of testing that what we are hearing. How cool would it be to see Michael Czysz himself out on the C1 turning laps in competition? Answer: VERY COOL! The developer of a bad arse new racing machine out running it himself. The last guy to do that may have been Dr. Rob Tuluie, and before that... Erik Buell. (Message edited by blake on June 22, 2007) | ||
| Djkaplan |
"I can picture that race in my mind and it has both bikes at the start with the Moto Czysz C1 comfortably in the lead by the second lap and then the Buell pulling into the pits on lap twelve with a tranny or crank problem or something." Can you picture lottery numbers, too? Or just things that make you more irritating? | ||
| Ft_bstrd |
I wonder if that picture is accompanied by the Spec Sheet racer bracket as well? ;) | ||
| Toronto_s3 |
Just regarding the 150 hp repliracer. Those were never the sort of numbers I was ever pulling on my own R6. My bike was pulling mid 130's on the Hindle dyno that we used to figure out our progress. My budget for my 2005 race season was 18.5k CDN. That was new R6 bike, a set of used Ohlins, and new Brembo's, Hindle exhaust, titanium rods, and Jeff Steen custom heads. Guys like Creiver and Martin who had factory support 600cc bikes here in Canada were known to have bikes pulling in the 140-150hp range depending on which ever dyno they were pulling on. The cost of their bikes would not be that much higher than mine but of course they had alot of factory support type hardware coming to them free of charge. And of course at least two identical bikes in the paddock for each race. I am sure Duhamel's bike in Formula extreme is triple what the best Canadian factory guys are running if you price it out. Hey Blake why don't you post those lovely XBRR results for us to see here on the board. I can't google any links for any of those wins you are talking about other than the stuff going on over in France. Good news to here that the XBRR is trouncing the Aprilia Tuono in competition. | ||
| Paint_shaker |
Hate to hi-jack the thread... But it is interesting... Anyone care to visit the local jap bike dealer and get a sticker price (in US $) on a 600, then all the parts to get it UP TO 150 HP, plus the handling parts and stopping accessories?? I would venture to say it would probably cost at or near an XBRR out of the box (with no mods)... But who knows, I could be wrong... | ||
| Blake |
"Good news to here that the XBRR is trouncing the Aprilia Tuono in competition." I dunno about "trouncing"--you seem to have a flare for the dramatic--but the XBRR is winning against some strong competition, like Ducati 999R, 998R, 1098, Aprilia RSV1000 Factory and the like. The CCS/ASRA site has the Buell XBRR national wins at Daytona and Road America well-documented. Go surf your heart out. Pretty sure you can find links to the results here on BadWeB too. | ||
| Trojan |
RoadRacing World is reporting that Jeremy McWilliams has tested the Moto Czysz C1 at Miller Motorsports Park and remarked that it was the best turning bike he'd ever ridden. So apparently the counter-rotating crankshafts idea has serious merit, just like it did in the Buell RW750 Barton based engine. Exciting news for the Czysz team for sure. It will be great to see them get it on the track and racing. That cannot be too far off. Would be cool to see it face off against an XBRR in a CCS GP race or something like that. It all means Jack Sh*t until they actually grow balls and get out and race the thing. How long have they been messing around with this bike and still not got it into a proper race? I think you'll find that most of the old 2 stroke 500 GP bikes had contra rotating cranks, so it is nothing new. The Moto Cyst (sic) has longtitudinal cranks, which is what they suggest makes turning quicker. This bike has never been tested publicly against any of the opposition so it is all pretty meaningless until it is. Why would it be cool to see it race at CCS/ASRA? This was designed as a GP bike wasn't it? Or have they now moved the goal posts? At the end of the day you can have the quickest turning (or best brakes;) ) in the world, but if the engine don't perform then you ain't gonna win a race. | ||
| Jon |
Well said indeed. And did I ever mention that I purchased an aluminum underseat tray from Trojan? Hand beaten aluminum y'know. Oh, sure I could have gotten one stateside for less and quicker, but I recognized with my superior judgement that the Trojan version was worth the money and the wait. Does the Czysz have a hand beaten aluminum undertray? I think not. | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
why is it that every one makes a big deal about this bike that might one day make it to moto gp. Heres a news flash us americans have a motorcycle in moto gp and it has been there for a few years it might not be winning much but its there go look at KR motorsports they are an american motorcycle racing in moto gp. | ||
| Trojan |
Heres a news flash us americans have a motorcycle in moto gp and it has been there for a few years it might not be winning much but its there go look at KR motorsports they are an american motorcycle racing in moto gp. Actually (and not wishing to split hairs) the KR bike is British with an American team owner. The bike is built at Banbury Oxfordshire in the heart of F1 constructor countryand pretty much all of the workforce are British craftsmen. Going back to the Moto Cycz for a moment: I recently read about a similar motor running twin contra rotating longtitudinal cranks linked by gears and running gear driven overhead cams. This one was supercharged though, and was built in 1938 by Velocette for their 'Roarer' race bike. They also had a prototype street version using OHV heads, and featuring adjustable preload rear shocks for the very first time. The chief engineer on the project was none other than Phil Irving of Vincent fame. This was built in 1939 but development was halted by Herr Hitler and his European tour. The prototype bike was more than a match for the top sportsbike engine of the time, the Triumph 500 twin. By the time the war ended Velocette had lost interest and moved on to other projects such as the LE commuter bike (another design years ahead of it's time). | ||
| Bcordb3 |
My question is this. Was McWilliams contracted to ride the Cycz for that testing? I am sure he is wise enough not to bite the hand that is feeding him. (Message edited by BCordb3 on June 24, 2007) | ||
| Thepup |
"My question is this. Was McWilliams contracted to ride the Cycz for that testing? I am sure he is wise enough not to bite the hand that is feeding him." Very true,do you think you can trust what good things McWilliams said about the XBRR then? | ||
| Bcordb3 |
I stand by my statement. McWilliams is the only person that knows what the intent of his statements were. (Message edited by BCordb3 on June 24, 2007) | ||
| Mcgiver |
"then the Buell pulling into the pits on lap twelve with a tranny or crank problem or something" , I don't believe any XBRR has retired from a race with a crank, or transmission failure. Clutch yes, electrical yes, oil leak yes, Minor problems! And why do so many think a race prepped Jap bike is so inexpensive? According to an article in Roadracing World magazine, there is a company selling race prepared gsxr1000's for Superstock, (not superbike) for right around $27,000. if I remember correctly, And Ulrich thought that was a good deal. Brian | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Reading these threads is almost like being at the track! neeow...... There they go round again... It's no good...yes it is...no it's not...I've got facts...My facts are faster...mine handle better...your facts are pooh...no your facts are pooh...I know the fact producer...he's pooh as well...no he isn't...yes he is, it said so in pooh facts monthly... Guess what? I don't give a fact! | ||
| Blake |
"Very true,do you think you can trust what good things McWilliams said about the XBRR then?" What would those be? Mr. McWilliams struck me as a very honorable and honest man. Shame on anyone who questions his integrity out of hand; that is extremely poor form. Bill (Bcordb3), You owe Mr. McWilliams an apology. } | ||
| Thepup |
Blake,I believe he said the brakes were pretty good.I was just curious if Bcord thought Buells money had anything to do with any of his compliments as he suggest of his C1 compliments. |
