| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketman |
There are a lot of inaccuracies that Blake mentions in his post regarding France and Iraq. I'm not getting into this bullshit politics on BadWeB, but man do the French get an arse kicking from the ill informed Americans here. Many of you would do well to visit France and see how well respected Americans are over there. Rocket | ||
| Rainman |
Aw c'mon, you mean it's politically incorrect to pick on the French now, too? All that's left to make jokes about are rednecks and Englishmen and I can't think of too much funny about either. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: Not sure what you imagine the French government was "right" about. The obvious thing that the French were right about was that the US should not have invaded Iraq in the first place. They were right, the Bush Administration was wrong...dead wrong...about everything (WMD, troop levels, length of war, cost of war, financing of war, level of sectarian violence, being greeted as liberators, etc.). Iraq as a country is much worse off now than it ever was when SH was in power. French pastry anyone? I don't blame America...I blame the Bush Administration, as do most of the "good people" in KY and our nation. Have you checked the approval ratings of your buddy lately? What is it...29%? What do you attribute this low rating to? Most Americans attribute it to the misconduct and mismanagement of this war. jimidan | ||
| Blake |
"I blame the Bush Administration" Yes. I understand that you like to blame. | ||
| Hughlysses |
I think this thread would have been WAY more interesting if we'd focused on the UFOs rather than the French.  | ||
| Rainman |
We did, if UFO means ubiquitous French opinions. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
Much as it goes against the grain, agreeing with an opinionated Yorkshireman, Rocket is on the Money. The French DO NOT hate Americans, they have a great respect for the sacrifices made by Americans on their behalf. They mostly think President Bush is just plain wrong. As for not supporting the USA in it's hour of need, that's just plain b***ocks. The French president did exactly what he thought was right & best for his country, which is exactly what he was supposed to do. The French are just as proud of their country as Americans, so please let this anti-French crap go, it's just media bullshit! VIVE LA DIFFERENCE! | ||
| Bomber |
sadly, there was a strong "with us or agin us" attitude in the USA for quite some time -- sadest, it extended to citizens who voice disagreement with the present adminsitration's opinion and actions -- happliy, this seem to be on the wane while spending a fair amount of time in another country, and being taken to task for a number of policies adopted by the government of the USA (some of which I agree with, others not), I managed to say something lucid during a conversation one evening over some cold frosty ones (in vino veritas?) "I think it is a mistake to confuse the actions of a government with the will of the electorate. Honorable people disagree all the time -- so, too, can nation states." jaws dropped (including mine) the government of France has decided to act in it's own percieved self-interest -- I would expect nothing other than that from any nation state or individual -- the people of France did not elect the President of the USA, and, therefor, should not be held to some standard of behavior and actions with which they do not agree. simple, yes? I think I saw a UFO down at the gap last autumn -- course, Mennis had fetched some great scotch, so I could be mistaken | ||
| Jimidan |
"I blame the Bush Administration" Yes. I understand that you like to blame. Please...I "like" it? You certainly are no novice in the blame game...you just have different targets. OK, how 'bout we hold the Bush administration responsible? It is all about accountability and culpability, cause and effect. It was their incompetence, failed policies and strategies, or lack thereof, that put out country into this untenable position. They should be held accountable...and will be. jimidan | ||
| Blake |
Jimi, You are an incessantly replaying broken record. Give it a break. Please go find www.ihategeorgebush.com and have yourself a ball. Me? I blame the islamo-fascists and their beloved useful idiots, the blame America firsters. Bomber, I agree with one important clarification, that the expression of constructive/thoughtful disagreement is entirely different from the waging of irresponsible divisiveness. One is valuable and one is harmful. In my view it is dead wrong and unpatriotic for any American, especially our elected representatives, to stake their integrity upon our defeat/failure in Iraq. It was a mistake concerning Vietnam; it will be a much more dire mistake concerning Iraq. At least this time we don't have John Kerry joining league with communist sponsored, militant anti-war faux veterans groups telling the world that our military condones a policy of pillaging, rape, murder and tortuous attrocity. That would be closer to Dick Durbin and other useful idiots this time around. The most Kerry has done lately was to say that our soldiers and marines are terrorizors of Iraqi women and children, and to imply that American military men and woman are uneducated dunces, and to announce abroad that America is an international pariah. | ||
| Bomber |
Blake -- as I wrote, honorable people disagree all the time. you and I disagree. nuff said. | ||
| Blake |
About what, the irresponsible statements of dishonorable people? Plenty of them go far beyond mere disagreement. That's the point I was trying to make. | ||
| Blake |
Is it honorable to accuse American soldiers of terrorizing women and children? Surely we can agree that it is not. Is it honorable to equate our military prison at Guantanimo to Soviet Gulags? Surely we can agree that it is not. When the prior American administration and the governments of virtually the entire developed world and the UN Security Council by unanimous decree agreed that Saddam Hussein was concealing illegal weapons, when our Director of Central Intelligence confirmed to him directly that "WMDs in Iraq are a slam dunk", is it honorable to call our President a "liar" for also agreeing with that assessment? Surely we can agree that it is not. That kind of rhetoric is not an expression of disagreement; it is an expression of hatred. It is not honorable, and those who see fit to make such statements are in my view not behaving honorably. | ||
| Brineusaf |
Perception is a wonderful thing isn't it? How many people in this discussion have seen the situation in the middle east in person? How many people have only seen the media reports or heard stories? That was simple huh? | ||
| Bomber |
Hugh -- I feel I owe you an apology for helping this thread turn left -- sorry, sir! | ||
| Rocketman |
Much as it goes against the grain, agreeing with an opinionated Yorkshireman, Was hoping to make a deal on that Dodge Sportsman, the one with the Wolfies and the bucket seats, anytime soon  Rocket | ||
| Hughlysses |
Bomber, no problem. Considering it's still winter some places, such thread turns are only to be expected. Looking back at my original post, it was a bit baited, although I didn't intend for it to be. I'll start another thread on a similar topic that can't POSSIBLY be turned into a political thread! (watch someone prove me wrong) | ||
| Bomber |
Hugh -- I promise that SOMEONE will prove you wrong -- however, this time, at least, it won't be me! | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
So you don't disagree with the description then Sean?  Just to get this thread back on track, Rocket is an alien from the planet Yorkshire, natives should be greeted by saying owdo! | ||
| Rainman |
Gawd, I love this board. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: "You are an incessantly replaying broken record. Give it a break. Please go find www.ihategeorgebush.com and have yourself a ball. Me? I blame the islamo-fascists and their beloved useful idiots, the blame America firsters. I don't start any of these "broken record" threads (you must be playing them backwards...I hear they play 'turn me on deadman, turn me on deadman'). I feel someone has to "real-in" you wild-eyed boys when you walk too far out on that right wing. Hint: When you see the "NO STEP" sticker, that is far enough. It will break off on you if you get too far out there. So you "blame the islamo-fascists and their beloved useful idiots" for the mess that is in Iraq right now? Interesting. So why do you keep playing the one equating those who hold the Bush Administration accountable with "blame America firsters?"? Isn't that willful misdirection? Dubya doesn't own the White House, he is just staying there for a few years. He is not America, and his name is not synonomous with the United States. George Bush, great President or greatest President? Vote @ www.I  Dubya.com. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on April 04, 2007) | ||
| Blake |
There is a huge difference in holding the President accountable versus running him through the ringer and blaming him for all that is imperfect in the world. One is constructive and thoughtful, the other is partisan and hateful. Even John Kerry, a man who voted against the war in 1991, voted for the war in 2003. The director of the CIA assured us that "WMDs in Iraq are a slam dunk." Saddam Hussein and his mass murdering, warmongering terrorist regime is no more. Who do you blame for that? The Taliban along with all of their al qaeda friends are no longer in power in Afghanistan; all the al qaeda training camps in Afghanistan have been destroyed. Who do you blame for that? We've killed or captured thousands of al qaeda. Who do you blame for that? America has not suffered another terrorist attack at home since 9/11. Who do you blame for that? After suffering a brief recession due to the dot com debacle, the attacks of 9/11, and the increased price of oil, our economy recovered in amazing fashion and is one of the strongest in the developed world with record high employment and unprecedented prosperity, home ownership is at an all time record high percentage in America. Who do you blame for that? | ||
| Blake |
Vive le France!  | ||
| Macbuell |
"Who do you blame for that?" The French?  | ||
| Rocketman |
Saddam Hussein and his mass murdering, warmongering terrorist regime is no more. Who do you blame for that? Saddam of course. He's dead, which is pretty selfish of him really when there's a country in need of his running. Rocket | ||
| Rocketman |
So you don't disagree with the description then Sean? Ay up lad. Aprifur fost un Rocket | ||
| Jimidan |
After suffering a brief recession due to the dot com debacle, the attacks of 9/11, and the increased price of oil, our economy recovered in amazing fashion and is one of the strongest in the developed world with record high employment and unprecedented prosperity, home ownership is at an all time record high percentage in America. Who do you blame for that? Funny you should ask. According to a 04/04/07 article in the NY Times, the economy is not as rosy for us common folk as that...as the old saying goes, figures lie, and liars figure. While I am NOT calling anyone on here a liar, I think there are some who in their zeal to defend the current administration, are prone to spread its disinformation like it was true. The real story is that if you are rich in this country, you probably have just got a lot richer over the last few years (if you haven't, you just haven't been paying attention). Not since the Roaring Twenties has this disparity been so wide. Accident...hardly. The kicker is that it has been so brazenly administered...they actually told us as they were sticking it in (inch by inch)...and many of us voted for them anyway. Remember? Here are the key points of the article: "In 2005, the latest year for which figures are available, the top 1 percent of Americans — whose average income was $1.1 million a year — received 21.8 percent of the nation’s income, their largest share since 1929. Over all, the top 10 percent of Americans — those making more than about $100,000 a year — collected 48.5 percent, also a share last seen before the Great Depression. Those findings are no fluke. They follow a disturbing rise in income concentration in 2003, and a sharp increase in 2004. And the trend almost certainly continues, spurred now as then by the largess of top-tier compensation, and investment gains that also flow mainly to the top. For the bottom 90 percent of Americans who are left with half the pie, average income actually dipped in 2005. The group’s wages picked up in 2006, but not enough to make up for the lean years of this decade." "Let’s get a few things straight: First, the economic gains of the last few years have been exceptionally skewed. From the 1970s to the mid-1990s, the gap between rich and poor widened considerably, but produced nothing like today’s intense concentration of income at the very top. And from 1995 to 2000, the long trend toward inequality was interrupted by general prosperity. The richest Americans did best, propelled by stock market gains. But the lower rungs also advanced. Second, government policies do matter. Part of the reason for the shared prosperity of the late 1990s was an increase in the minimum wage and a big expansion of the earned income tax credit. During the same period, a strong economy coupled with fiscal discipline — including tax increases, spending cuts and binding budget rules — conquered budget deficits and furthered job growth while providing a foundation for reasonably adequate social spending. In contrast, the economic policies of the Bush years have failed to benefit most Americans. The tax cuts have overwhelmingly benefited the richest. As a result, the tax code does less to narrow the income gap now than it did as recently as 2000. At the same time, important social spending has been cut. That exacerbates disparities, because middle-class and poor Americans use government services more than affluent Americans." This was all occurring as policies were enacted that made it easier for companies in this country to ship your jobs overseas. As CNN's Lou Dobbs has so eloquently put it, it is a "War on the Middle Class". If you are one of the few  rich ones, good for ya'...how 'bout dropping a few crumbs for the rest of us. It IS a market based economy that we live in, so it really does matter how much expendable income that lower 90% of the people have. So, how have the middle class been making it lately? That one is easy. Using credit cards and cashing out the equity of their homes, in spite of the resulting declines in their home's value, which has artificially kept consumer spending up. In other words, the "new economy" is based on people slowly losing home ownership, not gaining it. Professor Elizabeth Warren of Harvard Law School explains the problem like this, "Incomes aren't rising nearly as fast as big-ticket costs like healthcare, education and housing. Ergo the negative savings rate, the two-thirds of us who can't pay our credit card bills off every month, and the proliferation of "liar's loans" -- where customers fabricate an income high enough to qualify for a mortgage and banks promise not to call them out on the lie." We all know it is simply too easy to find examples of Americans drowning in "easy credit"...just watch all of the ads on TV for subprime loans, or your mailbox for all of those "pre-approved" credit card applications. Yeah, its easy...far too easy, primarily because those people are most of us. Keeping it real...which is all any conscious entity could ever really aspire to do. jimidan (Message edited by jimidan on April 05, 2007) (Message edited by jimidan on April 05, 2007) | ||
| Hughlysses |
I still think it would be more interesting to talk about the UFO (or SIDE in French parlance) reports: http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/ | ||
| Slaughter |
I think it's the French we have to thank for oral sex. | ||
| Rainman |
Viva le France!  |
