| Author |
Message |
    
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 10:14 pm: | 
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I think the main reason its getting fixed this quick is because current and past employees from Buell read Badweb. They talked to each other and BADA BING its getting fixed..... |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 10:21 pm: |
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I wonder if the big 4, BMW, Ducati and so on........ listen and react this well toward their customers |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2007 - 10:22 pm: |
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>>To Belt or not to Belt, that is the question! <<
Whether it is nobler in the bike
to suffer the chains and sprockets that cost a fortune,
Or to take belts against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To walk: to push, to get the ^#@*% trailer.
;
(Message edited by danger_dave on March 20, 2007) |
Crusty
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:29 am: |
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I wonder if the big 4, BMW, Ducati and so on........ listen and react this well toward their customers
 |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:35 am: |
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I had a friend of mine that M2nc is gonna know. He's not part of this board or ANY Buell associated board for that matter. He used to race bikes for years and used to own a dealership here in the local community and has worked on them all. He's the only 6'9" goliath on a TDM 850 that you'll EVER see. I ride with him on Sundays usually, and he has never owned a Buell, and reasons for that are even longer and have issues that go back 20 some years as I once heard him try to explain to me one time. He loves my bike. Says great things about the XB's and Buells in general, but has a problem with what seems to be other personal sides to the issue. That being said, he's been in this industry for what must be 20-30 years now, and does a lot of experimenting with bikes. I asked him on this very question, and he replied in perfect Mike Morley fashion. Long and detailed.
He, over the course of MANY years has written articles for other magazines and has a lot of years of data and experience. Most of us that know him seem to heed most of his advice. Is he the end all be all of knowledge? No. But pretty damn close. To know this guy is to love him. He's a bit spacey at times, but a great guy none the less. From MadMotoMike:
"the belt drive is the way to go. Shaft drive is good if you have a engine
orientation where the crankshaft is longitudinal. Shaft drive is a natural
in this instance. Chains used to be unreliable. When the kaw z-1 came out
;kawasaki was replacing chains under warranty, the chains needed constant
adjustment, as a result shaft drive became popular.
The problem with this is that shaft drive eats a huge chunk of horsepower
due to rotational mass. It also adds a big chunk of mass right at the end of
the swingarm, thus having a negative effect on suspension action. The springs
and damping necessary to control this mass under aggressive use, render the
suspension somewhat non compliant. Lastly , if you have a problem with the
shaft drive; it is a big problem. Ex... the seal in the final drive failed on
my bmw. The seal was 28 dollars but it took a couple of HOURS and special
tools to get it installed. Plus, any gearing changes with shaft drive are limited
and must be done with the height sidewall / circumference of the tire. Ex... a
130-80-18 is effectively gearing the bike about 300 rpm shorter.
Chain is good because theoretically it is very efficient. The theory is
sound, but falls on its face in reality. Ignorance and wives tales cut the
thing off at the knees. Most people do not know that the chain slack
specification is a MINIMUM spec. They do not realize that the with the bike
laden, the chain should never be tighter than the specification. Do you
have any idea how many chains i have seen that were strung like piano
wires??!! In any given moment, with any given group ............at least 60%
of the chains will be misadjusted. 99.9% will be way too tight! This saps
horsepower, destroys components, wrecks the suspension performance/handling, and generally "BINDS" the bike up in all kind of negative ways. Good news,
is that it is compact and saps little power when set up correctly.
Belt drive is superior, it is not perfect. The good: efficent
operation, lightweight, extra protection for the transmission (driveline
shock.) It can be set up with NO adjustment available.(this means there
would be no possability that people acting on good intentions could get it
misadjusted.). Its clean and lubricant free. If it ever were to fail, it
would tear up less stuff than the other two. Also its negative impact of the
bike's performance and handling is minimized.
The bad: bulky.....to get the pound per inch loading in the correct range;
the pulleys must be big in daimeter and wide. They also work better on short
wheelbase applications. Does not work well in high traction, high torque
applications. Example: A belt drive hyabusa would need an extremely big set
of pulleys to keep the ppi in the safe range. This is gonna sound strange,
but your bike becomes more vulnerable to vandalism. A bad person with a sharp
knife could absolutely ruin your trip.
I have bikes with shaft,belt, and chain. I like chain the best, with belt drive a
close second. Shaft drive is ok but it is expensive and requires alot of
compromise ...
I like to change my gearing and do a lot of experiments. Not possible with
belt drive and limited with shaft. Chain problems will take less than an
hour to overcome on the side of a road. If i owned a belt drive bike, I
would do research across industry to find a belt that is strongest and least
expensive. If the stock one is the best i can do; then I will carry a spare
and know how to install it.
madmotomike does not like trip interruptions..
Of the three, belt drive is the least likely to be messed up by consumer
error. Shaft drive is okay but murphy's law has a good foot hold. Chain is
potentially the best but requires commitment, discipline, and knowledge
to keep it working efficiently.
madmotomike" |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:44 am: |
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Mitigating the shaft drive 'eating a chunk of horsepower' argument is the fact that 2007 model in line fours make so much power it simply doesn't matter that the drive eats 10-15% - or whatever - of it.
torque slap and any gyro effects are all but eliminated now too. FJR1300 eg. |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 08:44 am: |
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Right now the only manufacturers making shaft drive bikes WITHOUT the jacking effect is BMW (all models), Moto Guzzi (all models) and Kawasaki (the Concours 14). All other shaft drive bikes have the shaft-jacking effect, some worse than others.
Shaft drive does add unsprung weight, but most shaft driven bikes these days are big and heavy enough that a little more unsprung weight doesn't make that much difference in handling. Bending the power delivery around 90 degrees robs power and if you have to do it twice, then you rob that much more power getting to the rear wheel. However, BMW boxers, Moto Guzzis, old-style BMW K Bikes (not the new ones with the transverse 4s), the Honda ST and GL bikes only have one 90 degree bend in the power delivery (at the rear wheel). |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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I've done pretty extensive tests on M109R Suzuki, C90T Suzuki and FJR1300 Yamaha recently.
Clunky in first gear - but no 'jacking' at all did I notice on any of them. |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:17 am: |
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I would not expect any of the other big bike manufactures to take care of you to the extent of Buell. Again it is a dealership issue, when they have racks and racks of chrome bobbles you would hope they have a, gotta have it now or it won't run part, on the shelf.
We need to remember we have a huge consumer advocate here. Thanks Court. I hope you get recognized for your contributions to the company. Your efforts are more valuable than most people realize.
(Message edited by lost_in_ohio on March 21, 2007) |
Jaimec
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 11:52 am: |
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From personal experience, if you have a BMW you better have a good dealer, because BMW North America is absolutely WORTHLESS at the consumer level.
And even if you do have a good dealer, expect him/her to be fighting with BMWNA all the time in order to satisfy your warranty claims.
And finally, just because you have a good dealer now, doesn't mean he'll necessarily be there in the future because BMWNA has been closing down dealerships left and right lately.
I love their bikes, but the company itself sucks BIG time. |
Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 01:45 pm: |
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Didn't I read somewhere that BMW was going for a single dealer platform. What I mean is that a BMW dealer handles Motorcycles, Cars and I suppose lawnmowers if they made them. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 02:07 pm: |
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Just stopped by the Dealership, They had belt in hand and said to come back this afternoon to pick up my bike!
Thanks Court!! |
Rubberdown
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 02:12 pm: |
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3 BMW's here, so far nothing but good experiences with the bikes and dealers. Same as my 2 Buell experiences. |
Gentleman_jon
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 02:19 pm: |
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Court is the man !
And that is an accurate statement!!
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Lost_in_ohio
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 06:55 pm: |
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Glad to hear it wolf. Hopefully I will not to rely on them. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 07:14 pm: |
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A BIG THANK YOU TO ANY AND EVERYONE THAT HELPED TO GET MY ULY BACK ON THE ROAD!!!! |
Teeps
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 08:12 pm: |
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After reading the madmotomike piece above.
I wonder why Buell doesn't offer a drive belt (emergency) repair kit, or a replacement belt at their cost. |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 08:35 pm: |
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Didn't Harley make a "spare" belt for their first belt driven bikes back in the late 70's. If I remember correctly it had a longitudinal "V" section that lapped into an equal "V" groove with little pins that slid into the hollowed out cogs of the over lapping "V" area of the belt. No wheel removal necessary either.
It was the equivalent of the "mini spare", enough to get you home if you were concerned about having a broken drive belt. |
Wolfridgerider
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 08:38 pm: |
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http://www.harley-davidson.com/gma/gma_product.jsp ?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441847159&FOLDER%3C%3Ef older_id=2534374302290831&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2 534374302290831&bmUID=1174523907604&bmLocale=en_US |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 08:58 pm: |
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i wonder if anyone here bashing shaft drives has looked under their car or pick-up lately?
i put a lot of miles on a shaft-drive FJR1300, and can report with the confidence that comes from actually having owned and ridden one that there was absolutely zero "jacking," on throttle or off.
as for sapping horsepower, well the damn thing made 126 to the ground, and 90 pounds of torque (Motorcyclist magazine numbers), so, like, it kinda really didn't matter.
as far as adding weight, i.e. "It also adds a big chunk of mass right at the end of the swingarm, thus having a negative effect on suspension action. The springs and damping necessary to control this mass under aggressive use, render the suspension somewhat non compliant", dude, sir, you have obviously never ridden an FJR in anger.
ride to lean,
FB |
Etennuly
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 09:09 pm: |
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Wolf, that's the one. Thanks. |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 09:33 pm: |
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I'm pretty sure that Mike was not trying to "defend" or "bag" on Shaft Drive bikes. At all!
I merely posed the question that has been showing up lately on more and more posts which has eventually made it's way to this one. Some of you are focusing on the FJR1300.
Good for you. You probably should since no one else is. |
Danger_dave
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 09:46 pm: |
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>>Good for you. You probably should since no one else is.<<
I'm not - it's just one of 3 particularly impressive shaft drive units I've tested in recent months.
The m109R Suzuki was just as good.
In big heavy 'trucks' they are great. I lived with the Rocket III for a while and found its drive just as un-noticable.
But I wouldn't like one on my Uly. |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 04:46 am: |
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i find madmotomike's thoughts on shaft drive interesting.
madmotomike: "The problem with this is that shaft drive eats a huge chunk of horsepower
due to rotational mass."
define "huge."
and on today's shaft-driven bikes, does this "huge chunk of horsepower" that is "eaten" by a shaft drive really matter?
it didn't seem to phase my FJR any.
mmm: "It also adds a big chunk of mass right at the end of
the swingarm, thus having a negative effect on suspension action. The springs
and damping necessary to control this mass under aggressive use, render the
suspension somewhat non compliant."
"somewhat non compliant"? that's somewhat funny.
mmm: "Lastly , if you have a problem with the
shaft drive; it is a big problem."
WHAT big problem? when was the last time anyone here saw a late-model shaft drive bike on the side of the road because of a "big" problem with shaft drive unit?
how often does the shaft drive under your car or truck have "big problems?"
would the fact that a car or truck has shaft drive keep you from buying one?
how many chain or belt final drive cars or trucks are there on the market to choose from these days?
mmm: "Ex... the seal in the final drive failed on
my bmw. The seal was 28 dollars but it took a couple of HOURS and special
tools to get it installed."
this doesn't sound like a "big problem" to me.
what year was/is his BMW?
what model?
how many miles when the seal "failed?"
how did it "fail"?
catastrophic, tearing up expensive hardware and stranding him in the middle of Death Valley?
or, was it just weeping a little bit?
how had the bike been ridden during those miles?
any off-road miles?
how does the "couple of HOURS and special tools to get it installed" compare to the parts and labor to swap out a chain and sprockets or belt and pulleys?
i know you can't buy a chain or belt for $28...
mmm: "Plus, any gearing changes with shaft drive are limited..."
geez, honestly, how many of us give a rip about changing the gearing on our bikes?
mmm: "Shaft drive is ok but it is expensive and requires alot of
compromise ..."
expensive? compared to what? "alot of compromise"? i'm missing something.
mmm: "Shaft drive is okay but murphy's law has a good foot hold."
what does THAT mean?
Some of you are focusing on the FJR1300.
i am because i have actually ridden one.
the comment above "Right now the only manufacturers making shaft drive bikes WITHOUT the jacking effect is BMW (all models), Moto Guzzi (all models) and Kawasaki (the Concours 14). All other shaft drive bikes have the shaft-jacking effect, some worse than others" is WRONG in regards to the FJR, and, per Danger Dave, wrong regarding several other late-model shaft-drive bikes.
chain is cool, have had a lot of bikes with it.
belt is cool, have had a lot of bikes with it (including my current ride).
shaft is cool, have had three bikes with it, and wouldn't hesitate having another.
FB
(Message edited by jerry_haughton on March 22, 2007) |
Saintly
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 07:00 am: |
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i know you can't buy a chain or belt for $28...
Actually, not that it pertains to your shaft arguement, but I can buy a non o-ring 530 chain for as little as $12.00 and thats for 100 links with a master link included. ($13.79 for 110 links which is the length I run)
It doesn't last very long (1000 - 2000 miles) But it would get you where you needed to go. |
Tommy_2stroke
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 07:29 am: |
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Shaft... chain... belt.
3 engineering solutions for the problem of power transmission. Each design has advantages and disadvantages, but there are no absolutes, and always some overlap between the methods. Choice of design depends on the best fit between the set of requirements for a particular application and the set of advantages/disadvantages provided by each design. When an engineer makes a choice like this, there is always a trade-off. No single design is best; you just have to do the best you can.
For a lightweight medium-power sportbike, the belt is a very attractive solution. It is feather-weight, clean, efficient, simple, reliable, maintenance-free, and the zero-lash feature provides the sporting rider with a precise "feel" to power application. Thus I believe the Buell engineering team has indeed chosen the best-fit solution to their problem. Other design teams will choose differently depending on how they weight their design requirements.
Knowing that the belt drive used by Buell has been thoroughly engineered and tested and revised at least once, it is still surprising to read of the occasional sudden failure of the belt. I have the feeling that this a now a pretty rare occurrence, but that it happens at all makes my right eyebrow raise up slightly whenever I hear of it.
Aside from severe belt damage caused by entrapment of sharp stones, is there any other failure mechanism involved here? Have there been any failures attributable to manufacturing defects? Is the newest belt design still vulnerable to mishandling during installation that results in hidden belt damage? I pose these questions to Buell and Goodyear. I have no access to solid information, just anecdotal stuff from reading on the Badweb. What is the failure rate in the field, and what is the cause?
Having said all that, I still would never trade my XB's belt drive for a chain or a shaft. |
Ducxl
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 07:46 am: |
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master link included
what's that?? i rivet mine....
Edit: oh yeah...the "unsprung hero"
(Message edited by ducxl on March 22, 2007) |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 09:43 am: |
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as a number have said, all three transmission methods have the advantages and disadvantages, both theoretical and real-world based . . . .
toady, my ideal choice (having, in fact, seen shafties on the side of the road immobilitzed by shaft failures) is chain -- due to two factors
cheaper/easier gearing changes
easier replacement
potnetial road-side repairs (if the failed chaing doesn't take out the engine, as it has on my, once, long ago)
if there was a limp-home belt option for my MaDeuce, I'd likely swap back to belt |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:27 am: |
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(...having, in fact, seen shafties on the side of the road immobilitzed by shaft failures...)
Mr. Bomber, sir, how many failures have you seen, over a span of how many years, and what were the model(s) of motorcycles in question, and approximate vintage(s)?
Sanka! 
FB |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 10:55 am: |
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JH -- relevant questions -- all were BMWs, all were within the last ten years (less of a time span for me than for many {grin}), and all were within 2-3 years of being new -- 5 or 6, total
not a huge number, I unnerstan, but, for me, troubling
I know that a statistical examination would point to my opinion being, ehem, uh, less than entirely grounded in truth and fact . . . but hey, scoots are, for me, as much an emotional choice as a mental one
Sanka is a wise choice, one of which I should certainly avail myself more often ;-}
how's the new digs? |
Nutsnbolt
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:02 am: |
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Oh My God...
Are you saying that modern day Shaft Drives are impervious to failure?
Plus, are you honestly saying that hardly anybody cares about the other gearing possibilities of our bikes? You must not have read that entire email... If you did, you'd have seen that I said that he used to Race bikes. (After a nearly fatal crash, he has stopped racing) So, I suppose I could still see his need to want to tinker and change the gearing on bikes. If you raced... would you race your FJR or any shaft drive? All the statements in the email I suppose were mostly from a racing point of view. You'd have to know him to understand, I guess.
I would even go as far to say that IF you could EASILY change the gearing on any Buell... More and More riders would do it. Especially on the ULY. I could envision Knobby tires and an unmolested forest. |
Jb2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:12 am: |
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Having owned all three variations I can report that I've seen/had more belt failures than the other two combined. I had a belt fail on a Sporty and Dad had one fail on his FLHS. The Sporty wasn't so bad to change but the big twin required a lot of tear down(like a Buell). It's something that could not be changed in a parking lot with hand tools. I have been stuck at the roadside with numerous Buell belt failures. None of my own but still when one bike in a group breaks down it forks up everyone's day. I have nursed several failing chains to a place where service could be performed. I've seen a few chains snap but all were related to poor adjustment or maintenance. I've yet to see anyone nurse a failing belt to a place where it could be changed. I never had a shaft failure although I heard the early Honda PCs had some issues. I currently own a Vic with a belt. While I'd rather have a shaft or a chain at least they've thought it out well enough that it could be changed roadside if the situation demanded it. |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:12 am: |
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relevant questions -- all were BMWs, all were within the last ten years (less of a time span for me than for many (grin), and all were within 2-3 years of being new -- 5 or 6, total.
hmmm, me thinks maybe BMW has a problem in your experience, not shafties in general?
how's the new digs?
great, finally warming up!
FB |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:23 am: |
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Oh My God...
Are you saying that modern day Shaft Drives are impervious to failure?
nope, didn't say it, didn't imply it.
Plus, are you honestly saying that hardly anybody cares about the other gearing possibilities of our bikes?
yes.
You must not have read that entire email...
yep, sure did.
If you did, you'd have seen that I said that he used to Race bikes.
yep, saw that. are you now saying that all your friend's opinions are based on a "racing" perspective? hmmm, musta missed that first time around.
...would you race your FJR or any shaft drive?
don't have the FJR any longer. would i "race" it? yep, in the right conditions. that bike, two-up and fully loaded (saddlebags, top trunk and tankbag) has kicked sportbike butt on one of the twistiest roads in America.
that's not something i heard about from a friend of a friend, or read in the latest moto-mag, it's something i DID.
not bad for a "truck" of a motorcycle with a "huge mass" at the end of the swingarm that "saps" horsepower and makes the suspension "somewhat non-compliant."
All the statements in the email I suppose were mostly from a racing point of view.
that was not stated nor implied.
I would even go as far to say that IF you could EASILY change the gearing on any Buell... More and More riders would do it. Especially on the ULY.
having ridden a Ulysses across the country, i can certainly see where this would be the case.
FB |
Jerry_haughton
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:26 am: |
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I have nursed several failing chains to a place where service could be performed.
hey, i resemble that remark!
FB |
Bomber
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:53 am: |
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JH -- BMWs as opposed to shafties -- you could very well be right -- my riding wonderyears saw only two brands of shaft driven scoots -- Beemers and Gooses -- I can say that I never saw a goose on the side of the road, ever --
still and all, while dreams of a grey R90S still appear in my noggin from time to time, BMWs recent offerings do not call to me -- nor to recent Geese
FJs do, though, interestingly enough, as do a couple of other bikes (really want to ride one of the new Triumph Tigers, for instance)
like I said (wrote) -- my noggin is not altogether in charge of the new bike decision making process . . . . |
Jb2
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 11:54 am: |
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>>> hey, i resemble that remark!
Damn straight you do!
(Message edited by jb2 on March 22, 2007) |
Ezblast
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 12:12 pm: |
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Changing out a belt is pretty easy for us Blastards - have done it in less than 10 min. after the belt arrived. I would hope it would be a simular case for any XB -
GT - JBOTDS! EZ |
Oldog
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 12:58 pm: |
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I wonder if the new belt (07 good year) is less prone to the hidden failure due to bending,
It would be nice to be able to carry a spare one on a long trip
Enquiring minds want to know.. |
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