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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:56 am: | 
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"British Super Bike, the bench mark series for the rest of the world..."
You just made beer squirt out of my nose. Get real o'brick endowed one. How many factory riders do you have in Brit SB? You aren't really serious are you?
If a twin could be made to compete against equal displacement IL4's, Duc would be running a twin in Moto GP. They know better, even with a sizable weight advantage for a twin they saw fit to go to a four cyl engine. Are the Brit SB IL4's allowed 1,000cc with the same performance mods as the twins? They aren't for AMAPR in 2003. That changes in 2004, so the IL4's will be even faster. Where previously the 750 IL4's could hang with the liter twins, now we will have liter IL4's racing against the very same twin cylinder machines. That makes sense to you? You might want to re-read the instructions printed on your new shot glass and coffee mug before you get into trouble. 
(Message edited by blake on May 08, 2003) |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 08:36 am: |
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Displacement IS the criterial for grouping,... deal with it.
Thats a complete crock of shit. Just for shits & giggles lets use this comaprison...take a new 636cc kawi & a SV650 zuki. I dont care what you do to the zuki but it will never put out the power that the Kawi will. Well maybe with a monster turbo it might..but then it wouldnt be legal anyways.
I dont follow racing very closely other than attending a race or 2 a yr just to hang out with friends, but I would think rear wheel hp & weight should be the criteria. I mean 100hp at the rear is the same no matter what bike its coming from. Sure some might have 15,000 rpm limits, but you could always regear a Buell to be competitive.
I still wanna see my Behemoth class tho. I think it would be hilarious to see Harley baggers running against Goldwings & BMW K1200LT's. Throw in a couple Yamaha ventures too while we are at it. I bet it would bring in the crowds to see that spectacle. Titanium floorboards putting on a hell of a spark show. Bags being ground thru on the edges. Ahhh, I love the smell of burning fiberglass at the track |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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Blake:
Loudon was a one-off, due to crappy, rainy conditions. Subsequent races have NOT showed that the bike's a front runner. In addition, the FUSA Sportbike class is HP & weight limited, as you are well aware. That reduces the amount of influence that a manufacturer can have on racing outcomes. As others have pointed out, NASCAR has built an empire based on the individual, not necessarily the brand. NASCAR also has strict limits on technology, where the details are sweated ALOT. It is NOT a racing class based on available street technology.
Again, Buell has not made the investments necessary to play in a ballpark built by the Japanese. Who pays those US factory riders you are chiding Rocket about? Regardless of current ability to compete, there isn't an extensive Buell factory effort in the AMA 750 class. The AMA is making business decisions that reflect the areas that are its bread & butter. Do I agree with all of them? No, but I don't share your vehemence.
Do I agree with the exclusion of Ducati from AMA SS classes? No, it doesn't make alot of sense, you're right. Same with Aprilia & Ducati in superbike. BUT, the big-bike market is made MOSTLY of 1000-cc fours. Each of the Japanese is capable of making engines in any configuration they choose, and have chosen NOT to make alot of v-twins. And, I would suspect that it won't be long before Ducati is selling a street v-4. A street Aprilia pneumatic-valved triple would be spectacular, in addition to being the first street application (that I know of).
Also, British Superbike has produced world class riders, just as the US series has. Neil Hodgson, Chris Walker, James Toseland, etc. have all come from BSB. I'm sure Rocket can name others. I'd suspect that some factory money flows into that series.
The AMA SS class was started for Japanese I-4 600's, cause that's all there was then. They've supported it for years.
Buell & HD are CAPABLE of developing a competetive engine that MEETS the current rules in ANY of the AMA PR classes. They have chosen NOT to. As you point out, Buell's are supported in FUSA races, in both a HP-limited class AND in a class designed to allow for equipment parity. Generally speaking, people who make racing equipment are NOT looking for parity, they are looking for an advantage.
Right now, the big factory money is in the AMA. If it switches to FUSA, then the AMA may start to adopt some of its rules. But, FUSA is minor-league. If I recall correctly, Honda pulled its support of the FUSA sportbike class as FUSA refused to remove the HP limitations. Honda was looking for an advantage, and FUSA would not give it to them. Hence, the move to AMA support. Money talks; Pro-racing is business. Yates, Mladin, the Bostrums, are paid by the big companies; they get that money from sales.
Off topic, sorry, but I'm excited anyway: I got my leathers from the UPS man yesterday. They are awesome! I had a set custom made. Put the whole outfit on just to go out and sit on the bike in the garage for a few minutes. Gets dang hot when you're not moving. All I have left to do is make a battery box, connect the catch can, and make a new pan mount. Now, all I need is 28-30 hours in a day, and the ability to survive on 2-hrs of sleep per day. (yeah, yeah, boo hoo for me)
Ben |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 12:22 pm: |
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I think the 1000cc/600cc limit for Superbike / Supersport is perfect. Here is the criteria,.. build it.
Yes Honda is a little down this year with their twins but what do you think they'll do next year. They will have a 4cyl ready to go and race, they adapt to the rules. So will Ducati, Aprillia and any other company serious about racing.
Yet Buell expects the AMAPR to bend the rules around their bikes,... that's the Bullshit !! |
Steve_a
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:11 pm: |
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Displacement is one of the least important variables from a motorcycle designer's viewpoint. What does the designer want to know? Peak power and shape of the power curve, the engine weight, the engine bulk, its maintenance requirements, and its cost. Which would you rather have: a 130-pound 600cc Four that makes a 100-rear wheel horsepower at 14,000 prm, or a 125-pound 1200cc Twin that makes 100-horsepower peak with a flatter torque curve, and also is simpler and less costly to produce? [Not that this directly relates to the Buell situation; they're still living with engines with legacy features because of H-D; think instead of the new KTM V-Twin].
Displacement is popular for setting racing rules and historically for tax purposes because it is easy to measure, but displacement-based rules quickly distort designs. You end up with very complex engines optimized for power from displacement rather than for power to weight, a much, much more important variable. I remember talking to Rotax engineers about why their flat-Four aircraft engines had pushrods; they explained there was little power advantage to overhead cams in that application, and the engine was more compact and lighter without ohc. Power-to-weight rules in aircraft engine design, so they stuck with pushrods. (Which is not to say the design trade-offs would be the same in a motorcycle engine.)
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Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:36 pm: |
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Isn't displacement the primary variable for a motorcycle designer? It immediately sets the expectation & market for the bike. The rest of the design generally follows.
Engine design for any application depends on what you're trying to acheive. IF the limitation placed on you is displacement AND you want maximum power, you proceed in a certain fashion. As witnessed by early motorcycle racing efforts by Honda (and others), there were motorcycle GP engines such as Honda's 250cc six-cylinder bike. That engine was about acheiving maximum hp from a given displacement. Right now, I personally don't think the Japanese manufacturers give a hoot about long-term reliability with their sportbikes. It seems that the streetbike life of a 600-four is 2-4 years before its clapped out or totalled, less if its a racebike. (But racebikes are rebuilt more often)
Another thing that rules in aircraft engines is absolute reliability. And, don't aircraft engines operate at fixed rpm's for long times? Like you said, different design tradeoffs.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 01:50 pm: |
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Ben,
While qualifying and practice was in the wet, the Loudon FUSA Sportbike race was in the dry.
Did you catch the Daytona race. If he hadn't run out of fuel, Buell would have bagged a podium finish. The Buell racer still managed to finish 4th, but was unable to complete a dyno run, as he had no fuel and was not permitted to replenish for the dyno run.
Did you see yesterday's news about Tommy Hayden's ZX6R was found to have illegally machined/tampered-with cylinder heads. That is one of THE biggest no-no's in Supersport technical rules violations. It is huge. It demonstrates a clear premeditated and direct intention on the part of Kawasaki to blatantly cheat. AMAPR rather than disqualify Hayden as they have in the past with other racers with much less serious rules violations, merely penalize him 20 points.
Yeah, those AMAPR executive guys are a stand up lot. NOT!!!
Lies, deceit, bias, favoritism, corruption... not a good way to run a business.
Why are you dredging up NASCAR? I don't hold up NASCAR as any kind of exemplary racing series.
"Again, Buell has not made the investments necessary to play in a ballpark built by the Japanese."
If you mean Buell has not sufficiently lined the pockets of AMAPR executives, I'd agree. If on the other hand you are saying that the Duc 748/749RS, and all the other twin cylinder based machines/brands that are excluded from Supersport or rendered uncompetitive by the new rules allowing liter IL4's in Superbike... if you are saying that they don't deserve to race since they haven't sponsored any of the AMA series... that is crap. Did not Buell sponsor Pro Thunder for three years? What did that get them? Lies and bias against them in Superstock and continued exclusion in Supersport.
The FUSA HP limits are generous at 115rwhp. In general, that is a 15% increase over the stock performance of 600cc IL4 motorcycles. How do you figure the AMAPR factory teams manage to get over 130 rwhp out of their machines with just exhaust, and ECM modifications. That is complete crap! The integrity of that series is a joke. The factories are allowed to cheat. When they are caught cheating so blatantly that it cannot be ignored, they receive a paltry slap on the wrist. AMAPR tech rules enforcement is a farce.
Read about it at RRW...
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=5975
You claim that "the big-bike market is made MOSTLY of 1000-cc fours."
Where do you get this information? I'm not sure it is accurate. But even so, that is all well and good, but to be FAIR, AMAPR should then up the limit on twin cylinder four valve water cooled OHC superbikes to 1250cc's. Why don't they? Only one answer, and you know it well ... Japanese daddies no likee.
If Ducati fields a street version of their GP racer, their GP racer will be disqualified from GP competition. Same for Aprilia and their GP triple. GP bikes are not allowed to share major traits with commercially available street machines. Maybe there is a way to get around that, but I think the rules are pretty clear. They would need a completely new/different engine. Nah, they'll probably just tell AMAPR to go flock themselves. I think they pretty much already have. Ever since Ducati dropped the very successful Vance and Hines effort, concentrating more on WSB and Moto GP.
Neil Hodgson is a national BSB champion and a great also ran racer at the world level. He's not at the level of a Baylis or Edwards or Fogharty. The CMRA produces an inordinate amount of national and world class championship riders. That doesn't make the CMRA a world class racing series or one that sets convention in the world arena. Does it? Some factory money of course makes it's way to BSB. That doesn't make it the pre-eminent national series in the world or one that sets racing technical convention. Canadian SB receives factory support too. Rocket's point is lost on me anyway. If he thinks a liter twin can hang with a liter four, all else being equal, he is sadly deluded.
"The AMA SS class was started for Japanese I-4 600's, cause that's all there was then. They've supported it for years."
Really? Was Ducati not selling motorcycles that year?
"Buell & HD are CAPABLE of developing a competetive engine that MEETS the current rules in ANY of the AMA PR classes. They have chosen NOT to.
You just don't get it do you. If Buell or anyone else came up with a competitive bike that meets current Japanese brand biased rules, what do you think would happen? AMAPR would immediately change the rules to favor their Japanese daddies. There is absolutely no doubt about it. It would be completely delusional to believe otherwise.
Generally speaking, people who make racing equipment are NOT looking for parity, they are looking for an advantage.
Agreed. What is your point? That the racing sanctioning organization should not seek to provide a level playing field for ALL competitors since some of those competitors would rather have an advantage for themselves at the exclusion of others?  You running for a seat on the board of AMAPR?
"If I recall correctly, Honda pulled its support of the FUSA sportbike class as FUSA refused to remove the HP limitations. Honda was looking for an advantage, and FUSA would not give it to them. Hence, the move to AMA support."
I think Honda was already heavy into supporting AMAPR. Don't think it was an either-or scenario.
Congrats on the leathers. I'm still wearing my scraped up discounted last year's model AGV suit. It's a good suit though. Good luck, please post details in the Racing - Circuit topic in the Knowledge Vault. I have some stuff to add there myself. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 02:03 pm: |
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JSS,
No, lies and deceit and favoritism all in support of a foreign based manufacturer is what is bullshit. It is in no way "bending the rules" to set a level playing field for all current brands/configurations of sport bikes. No one is asking the Jap IL4's to carry extra weight or limit power output. Nope. Just let the other configurations of motorcycles race too with tech rules to promote parity among all configurations of sport bikes. How is that "bending the rules"? FUSA does it. CCS does it. I don't know, but I bet WERA does it too. Moto GP does it. AMAPR used to do it in Superbike.
Ben,
Honda has a four cylinder literbike poised to dominate the AMAPR Superbike racing scene. I'd be surprised if this is not the last year you will see the factory run the RC51 in AMAPR. It simply cannot hang with the GSXR1000. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 02:10 pm: |
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So Blake, you're saying if'n Buell built an i-4 motor that kicked ass,... AMAPR would change the rules to make it illegal as they don't like Eric B.
Do you really believe that?
Is flouride in the water an attempt to drug the masses also?
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 02:30 pm: |
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Ben,
"Isn't displacement the primary variable for a motorcycle designer?"
Warning!!! You have completely swallowed the bait hook, line, and sinker, cast so skillfully by the Japanese tactical marketing machine. Quick, cut the line before they reel you in and fry you for dinner!
Read what Steve said again.
I'll take 50 mpg, four valves, two cylinders, hydraulic lifters, a single throttle body/carb, air cooling over...
40 mpg, 16 valves, four cylinders, periodic valve lash adjustments, four throttle bodies/carbs, water cooling EVERY day of the week.
Some naysaying pro metric-bike sheep and disgruntled malcontents might think Erik is some stubborn fool adhering destructively to his doctrine of simplicity and displacement over complexity. In reality he is an exemplary purveyor of logic and innovation seldom scene in the world today.
The once valid protest against Buell motorcycles was aimed at reliability issues. That is no longer valid. We now hear complaints about a lack of power from bikes that outhandle the world's prior best. What will the naysayers drum up when Mr. Buell ups the power output?
Why cannot a comparably powered yet heavier bike with half the cylinders, half the engine speed capability, one fourth the valves, one fourth the throttle bodies yet with twice the displacement, be allowed to race? It beats the hell out of me.
Oh yeah, guess who else is now screwed by the current AMAPR rules changes for 2004 SB? Who's the guy set to build an American superbike? Sorry, AMAPR says "please bend over and smile."  |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 02:38 pm: |
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So Blake, you're saying if'n Buell built an i-4 motor that kicked ass,... AMAPR would change the rules to make it illegal as they don't like Eric B.
No, they would not necessarily act out of contempt for Mr. Buell. They would act upon the will of their Japanese daddies. Are you not familiar with the demise of AMA Formula 1? The demise of Pro Thunder? The rules changes in AMAPR Superstock? The exclusion of Buell and Ducati machines from competing in Supersport and Formula Extreme? The rules changes in Superbike to render Ducati, Aprilia, KTM uncompetitive?
The writing is clearly on the wall for anyone to read who can pull their head out of their nether regions to do so. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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BenM2,
For a guy who claims to know about racing you don't know much! Maybe you should listen to those who actually attend races. What are you talking about that the Firebolt hasn't shown anything? It won Loudon as Blake said, and it was a clear and dry day. And Eric Wood won by a significant margin...the only rider close to him crashed trying to keep up.
Not only there, because Mike Cicotto on a Firebolt was all over Matt Wait on the factory 600 Yamaha at Daytona until Mike's electric shifter went out.
The two of them were disappearing from a huge field of Japanese bikes. Mike would pass Matt on the brakes and in the corners, but Matt had horsepower on him, so Mike was sit in the draft, and repass Matt at the end of the straight. When Mike's electric shifter started going out (causing the engine to misfire until he realized the problem and switched it off), he lost the draft, and ran on his own. At that time he was about 8 seconds ahead of third!
Mike ran alone with no drafting partner in second until about 4 laps from the end. Mike was then reeled in by two Suzuki team mates who had been helping each other with the draft. When the first one caught Mike, he tucked in the draft again, and started racing this guy, leaving the other Suzuki behind. Mike was sitting in the draft, and pulling out to pass for second on the final lap, when he ran out of gas on the front straight.
The Firebolt chassis was clearly superior in handling to the R6, and the STANDARD XB front brake was absolutely superior to the Japanese brakes. No domination, no bullshit, just clean tight racing. Thank God for FUSA, who allow different ideas to compete against one another.
And JSS, yes, if Erik built a four cylinder bike the AMA would be likely to ban it. Why not, they did it to his ass-kicking RW-750.
So, to go racing you must build a motorcycle to the Japanese formula, right? No room for different ideas? No room for American innovation? You realize if the World Superbike guys hadn't had a Superbike formula for 750 fours against 1000 twins Ducati would not exist today? Sure, let's kill 'em all off, and put everyone on the same UJM motorcycle.
I can't believe Buell owners talk like this, hell, I can't believe Americans talk like this! I pray that Buell never goes the route of Japanese copies, and it looks like they won't.
So, assuming Buell isn't going to build a copy...here's a scenario for all you out there. Remember 2002, when the AMA closed out Pro Thunder and put Ducatis and Buells in the 750 Supersport class for 2003? The AMA had also stated that there would be no rules changes without at least a two year notification. So Buell decides to work on building a 145 rear wheel horsepower 1350cc dual downdraft EFI close ratio, special-headed, full fairing chain drive model to sell for racing.
So, they set out to develop it during 2003 and have it ready for 2004. Let's see, since Buell does stuff incredibly efficiently, let's say they invest $1.5 million in development, and about $500,000 in tooling. Around about May 2003, when they are about to start testing the pre-production prototypes, they find out through Roadracing World that the AMA has changed the class to 1000cc four cylinders...oh, yes, and they haven't increased the displacement for Buell and Ducati. So sorry...(little bow and ingratiating smile)
Of course, this probably didn't happen, because after being screwed by the AMA on the RW-750, the RR-1000, and Pro Thunder, maybe Erik and team are smart enough to not trust the AMA ever again... |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 10:08 pm: |
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Sorry, should have said ..."trust AMA Pro Racing ever again..." A different entity. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 11:36 pm: |
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Blake old son, you know your problem, you spread yourself to thin. Obviously you think you know all there is to know about motorcycle racing but let me tell you, you're talking out of your big Texan hat. Obviously you can't take the pace with all the arguments you seems to be involved in these days.
British Super Bike is THE bench mark series at national level in Superbikes. Not by accident was the British series chosen to gauge how well IL4's would fair against (for example) the Ducati's before they allowed IL4's into World Super Bike. The rules are the same for all manufacturers no matter what the displacement or configuration of their race bike. Tune it how you like sir!
Your comments on Hodgson are ridiculous too. Maybe you don't follow the WSB series as well as you'd like us all to believe? Sure Hodgson isn't mixing it with Edwards or Bayliss this season, never the less he's won 6 out of 6 so far.
To put Hodgson in perspective, and by the way I'm not a fan of his, I prefer Walker but boy is he unlucky, but Hodgson as a British Super Bike runner and 'wild card' entry in the 2000 and 2001 WSB British rounds WON several races. That's not all, in each race he was riding older machinery with less power than the factory WSB's of the day ridden by the likes of Edwards, Baylis, Corser, Haga, Yanagawa etc.
Your perception of the BSB series is one of ignorance. I suggest you contact Duke Marketing of the Isle of Man, and purchase the season review videos. Better racing anywhere in the world you will not find.
Incidentally, if you look at where several of the teams running in WSB have come from, I think you'll find many are British. Here's another little known fact for ya Blake. The factory backed Castrol Honda team that ran your Texan Tornado, and made him a World Suerbike Champion, were based in Louth, Lincolnshire, UK. That's about 50 miles from where I live, and just about next door to Cadwell Park, one of, if not the best bike racing circuit in Britain (sadly owned by an American outfit who are considering selling it off to developers for house building).
You know what else is funny when I think of your comments. Edwards Castrol Honda was built and maintained in its entirety by us Brit's. Edwards will tell you himself, despite it saying Honda on the tank it was a BRITISH bike in all but name.
As for Moto GP, the current ride to beat is a V5 and that's why Ducati went with a V4 and not to beat an IL4. If you'd have read the link on the Harris WCM Team I posted I doubt you'd have made those comments about Moto Gp. Industrial production is how the rule book reads, and right now it is seemingly ambiguous given the WCM teams dilema. All prototype machines are in some way subject to industrial production, is WCM's argument, but never the less they are a very small team trying to establish themselves in the premier level of motorcycle racing, something Erik Buell once use to be interested in doing but it seems now he's only interested in arguing the points of a rule book rather than building a race bike. That's the part I don't get. Why doesn't he put his money where his big mouth is rather than Suck Off His American Daddies - HD ??
Rocket  |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 03:37 am: |
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All very nice, and good on you for your patriotism but... How many factory riders in British Superbike again? Ben Bostrom kicked Hodgson's ass when they were on the same machine/tires. Hodgson is good, but he is not in the same league as world champions. WSB this year is the Ducati cup. It lost its two champions. So Hodgeson is now able to win. Big friggin' deal.
As to the Buell race effort... try reading the posts above yours.
If you think it is "arguing the points of a rule book" to be repeatdly lied to and mislead by AMAPR as they continuously change the rules to counter your best efforts, you don't understand the situation at all over here wrt AMAPR. Your last comment is very unfortunate.
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 05:41 am: |
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Ok Blake, the Ducati Cup it is, but that just shrouds how well Hodgson has done thus far by simply saying he has a seemingly easier ride on his hands this year. Take nowt away from him, he's only in his 2nd season of WSB and he has the potential to become a four stroke circuit racing great. After all it's early days yet. And when did Bostrom kick his arse? Laguna Seca once? Seems to me both the Bostrom's are not as promising as they were meant to be, but then you Yanks have always been great at talking things up. See that's the difference between British and American patriotism, us British like to keep our feet down on the ground (we love modesty especially in a winner) were as Americans like to have their heads in the clouds don't they, which translates into you lot can talk a good talk but it doesn't always mean you're right (or is that BEST?). Trouble is, when you win you tend to gloat in it sometimes (like George Bush in his jet fighter).
Meanwhile back to bikes. Why don't you ask yourself how many World Champions have campaigned (another great Americanism) in British Super Bike? You wouldn't have a clue about BSB racing nor understand how so many of our fantastic riders never get the chance to perform on the world stage due to the politics in the sport. Ask anyone that knows what they're talking about when it comes to four stroke racing and they'll tell you the British series is THE series. You don't believe me? Compare lap times with BSB and WSB when they share the same tracks and maybe, just maybe, you might have your eyes opened, but somehow I doubt that with you Blake.
As for the bus drivers comments, he's mentioned this supposed fancy XB before hasn't he. Do you expect me (us) to believe two million dollars of investment was thrown down the pan? The man's talking shit and I demand to see a pic of the prototype from him seeing as he seems to be so well informed. Let's face it, 2 mill' is a lot of wonga to chuck away. If that unlikely scenario had taken place I'd have been tempted to suck the AMAPR's daddies in an effort to get a one make series up and running, but then again I'm not Erik Buell. But you're right Blake, I don't follow AMAPR, but I also don't go around putting down others for the sake of patriotism, and I have the integrity to recognise a good rider when I see one no matter what country he comes from or rides in.
Seems to me, bikes and their riders, like wars, are exclusively bested by Americans these days eh?
Rocket
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Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 07:02 am: |
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Sorry, I remembered Loudon as wet. I stand corrected. And yes, the bike did well at Daytona. But, FUSA is a hp-limited series, on purpose. It makes for closer racing, as the front-running bikes (series specific builds) all are similar (NASCAR-ish).
Do you honestly believe that if Buell made a 600-four (in any engine configuration) that the AMA would rule it illegal? The TT600 has not been ruled illegal...
AMA Supersport racing started in 1987, Ducati did not make the 916 till 1994 (? or so). Thus, SS racing was all-Japanese till Ducati made the 748, well into the nineties.
Blake, the AMAPR decision on the Kawasaki machine certainly smacks of favoritism. I remembered the RRW article on that privateer's intake valve, and the subsequent dq. Fair is fair, the same penalty should apply. I do have difficulty believing that SS machines pull 130rwhp, though. People with fully-prepped 600's (cams, porting, etc.) don't seem to get to those numbers. I'd expect the factory bikes to have at least SOME advantages from casting-sorting, but I just don't swallow the 130RWHP thing.
Did you see that BMW is preparing an I-4? The Japanese must have gotten to them, too! Whatever will become of the boxer cup? (what a load of crap THAT trick was, pulling PT for that race).
However, I still disagree on two points. One, I don't believe that anyone at AMAPR has done anything illegal. They have made business decisions consistent with the organizations that provide the bread & butter that keeps it running. Two, I don't believe that the XB9 engine represents a similar effort to the SS I-4's.
HD does NOT compete with the Japanese. Model changes stay in place for MUCH longer, and the bikes are built for long-term durability. Like diesel engines, HD bikes are slow-rotating, large displacement behemoths with lots of torque and low power. These are NOT characteristics of racing machines. The XB9 is a step towards racing engines, with a shortened stroke for higher revs (and consequently lower torque).
If Buell has developed such a hot-rod for superstock, let Erik post another letter in RRW. I for one (and all of you, I'm sure) will send all manner of nastygrams to RRW to post. Heck, I might even send a letter to my close personal friend, Merril Vanderslice (WARNING - SARCASM. I HAVE NEVER MET HIM. NO AFFILIATION WITH AMAPR.)
Um, Hodgson kicked Bostrum's ass all over the place last year, on the same tires. Hodgson was consistently the highest-ranked Dunlop rider. Now, Ben is back in the states, no offer for world stage forthcoming. Don't know why, seems to have lost his edge. (still, could beat me on any track riding a Z50).
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Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 02:22 pm: |
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Rocket,
I guess six consecutive WSB wins in 2001 didn't get your attention? Hodgson is good, but he never showed that kind of dominance. He did do much better last year. Did he win even one race? Who is blind or prejudiced? No matter. If you think that BSB is the pre-eminent national SB series, that is fine by me. It is a great series.
You suggest that we compare the lap times of BSB riders to WSB riders on the Brit tracks... big deal; the same exact scenario plays out for the locals at many of the WSB events. Often times the local heros are even faster than the WSB leaders. Remember the Japanes SB racer who won the WSB events last year at Suzuka? I recall when AMASB racers BBoz and Anthony Gobert WON the WSB rounds at Laguna Seca in 2000. Why do all the top Ozzies and Canucks come to race in AMA SB instead of going to BSB? You are deluded my friend, patriotic, but deluded.
Why, if Buell developed a kit race bike they did not announce it is their business. It sounds like the man on the bus knows what he is talking about. I've been able to verify other statements he's made in the past. I trust these will bear the same integrity.
Ben,
Is it a limiting factor to impose a 115rwhp limit on motorcycles that produce less than or right at 100 rwhp in stock form? The intent is to keep the big factory efforts from totally dominating the scene as they do in AMAPR.
It is hard for me to grasp how the factory 600 supersport machines are able to make such fantastic power, but they indeed do. Compare their lap times and trap speeds to the Superstock and Superbike entries. Compare them to the Pro Thunder qualifying results last year. We know that the PT bikes were producing beween 130 and 140 rwhp. It is hard to believe, but the factory Supersport machines are indeed producing over 130 rwhp. The lap times and trap speeds don't lie.
You may be right about AMAPR, lying is not illegal. But it is still lying. And actually, I've personally seen statements made by one particular AMAPR executive that if persued in court, could have been brought up as libel or slander as applicable. I however do believe that if all the details and dealings and personal transactions were known, there would indeed be exposed withing AMAPR executive management, egregious corruption. There simply is NO other answer explaining their actions to sabotage the efforts of other non-Japanese non-factory competitors.
Your perspective is that the Japanese factories provide the "bread and butter" for AMAPR as a business venture. I'm not sure that is correct. Are the fans and television contracts overshadowed by the class sponsors? Chevy Trucks is the biggest sponsor; they sponsor the entire series as a whole. Buell was a sponsor. What did that get them? Answer... Nothing! No, the bread and butter of AMAPR as a business venture is not the class sponsorship provided by the Japanese factories. The lining of pockets of AMAPR management is another matter. If you want to call that bread and butter, I guess you are right.
How is it "good business" to EXCLUDE competition from a racing series? How is it good business to render uncompetitive the competition? You really need to explain that to me. I don't see it. No-one is asking to have the IL4's rendered uncompetitive, just let the other bikes race too. How is that not good business.
When class sponsors make the rules, a national racing series is no longer true to its intent. If that is what AMAPR desires, they need to change their friggin' name. America is NOT about exclusionary predjudice. Nothing illegal?... I'm not so sure of that. The hard part is finding the proof. The FBI has bigger fish to fry these days. The preponderance of the evidence is there if one is willing to see it.
I look at it this way... Buell sponsored Pro Thunder for three years and never won a championship. They were always in the hunt, but fell just a few points shy on a couple occasions. They were fully prepared and willing to continue sponsorship of that series. That is what I call integrity and fairness. That's a bit different from the behavior of Honda and their ilk isn't it. Honda cannot get what they want in the way of rules changes, so they end their sponsorship of FUSA Sportbike.
If Buell were to field a losing IL4 or V6 or whatever effort in AMAPR SB or SS, no, AMAPR would not be inclined to enact rules changes to thwart their efforts. If Buell were to make plans to field what appeared to be a competitive potentially race winning effort, I would fully expect that the current management of AMAPR would make class rules changes to hinder such an effort. Why? Their Japanese factory daddies no likee.
Whether AMAPR conducts themselves in such a biased fashion due to corruption or a misguided loyalty is unimportant. Either reason is wrong and is woefully bad for the sport. And their actions, through affiliation of their name, put America and the AMA in a very bad light. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 02:32 pm: |
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Is BMW's new IL4 a racebike? Is it for MotoGP? |
Jim_m
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 03:05 pm: |
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It's a new redesign of the K1200RS (from what I recall)...but it will be a transverse inline 4, as opposed to the "flying brick" they use now.
IIRC, Cycle World has a blurb on it (could be Motorcyclist, my sub hasn't run out yet  ) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 08:31 pm: |
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Blake:
Factory efforts are supposed to dominate pro-racing. The cost of top talent demands winning, advertising campaigns are built around racing dominance. A 115hp limit prevents factory dominance, which is counter to the factories intent (winning to sell more bikes). It works for FUSA because its NOT at the same level.
I don't believe that AMAPR holds the prestiege it has in the past. Starting from Kenny R Sr. up to Doohan, US riders were THE STUFF in the world arena. I don't get that impression now from AMAPR. Maybe the rest of the world's national series have gotten better, or our's has gotten worse. Don't know which.
I would think the general fear would be this: Buell could develop a 1350cc bike that produces 130-140 rwhp, which could be a consistent frontrunner at AMA Supersport events. Patriotic? Yes, but is it really fair to the companies who have supported the class for years? I still don't believe that SS-prepped factory 600's develop that much power. However, the bike is overmatched in superstock. I believe Buell have put the AMA in a difficult position (by their own hand, sort of). They want to keep the brand around, so they allow modifications that other superstock bikes aren't allowed. An equally prepped 1340cc bike in supersport could be an overdog in the right hands (torque coming off of corners). So, they went with the solution they did. What I believe was the asinine decision was to eliminate the PT class; if it had stayed we all would be (relatively) happy.
As it is, I will attend as many FUSA races as I can. I might be able to squeak Loudon this year (so Imonabuss, I might actually SEE that race this year). VERY disappointed that Pocono was dropped, although it may have been for good reason.
Do I want to see an AMA race? No, not really. I like to go into the pits, talk to the racers, see the bikes, etc. Club racing is ALL atmosphere, you can breathe it in. FUSA seems to be somewhere in between.
Blake, have a beer. Its Friday.
Ben |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:33 am: |
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I had two while sharing an order of Fajitas with my girlfriend/wife. 
The factory Supersports ARE making 130+ RWHP. Look at the lap times.
No, letting a Buell Pro-Thunder/Superstock class machine race in Supersport would not be fair. But if Buell comes out with an XB12R, putting down at or less than 100RWHP in stock form, it darn well should be allowed to race in Supersport, subject of course to the same performance modification rules as the IL4's. Ducati 748/749RS's should be allowed to race in Supersport.
Explain how that is bad business? More brands, comparably performing machines all racing head to head, more fan interest, more variety... who loses? Answer... So sorry we no like; please exclude other brands very kindly thank you very much. 
I just read the review RRW did on the new Triumph Daytona 600. Sounds like Triumph is getting close, very close to having been completely assimilated by the Japanese, maybe next model release... maybe.
Doohan was a US rider?
We agree on one thing... Go FUSA! |
Crusty
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:29 am: |
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Blake, you're as vehement in your assessment of the AMAPR, as some people were in the late '60s. The only difference is back then, the critics were accusing the AMA of sucking off Harley - Davidson. I don't believe they're as larcenous as you make them out to be. They have the best racers competing on the best tracks in this country. Top level competitors like Mladin and Anthony Gobert don't come from overseas to race in Formula USA.
I was rankled about the replacement of Pro Thunder with the Teutonic Turdfest (and still am), but repeatedly, I've heard comments from other people to the effect that it was a very exciting race. I personally feel that it should be renamed the Battle of the Blimps.
You need to lighten up. In your eyes, AMAPR can do no good. I see the most interesting racing series happening this year. WSB has become a Ducati only series, while GP is the V5 show. And write letters to the AMA. They really do listen to the people who spend money to see their show. If enough people feel like you do, they'll make some changes. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
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A problem I've noticed is even when a lower hp Buell wins anything, the spectators sarcasticly say "sure it's a 1200". Joe Average doesn't live at the racetrack and doesn't understand physics. He's looking for a 600 class and an open/anything goes class, and a beer. For riders, FUSA/CCS is about as fair as it gets with weight/hp formula. For the casual fan, AMA may just be dumbing it down to give them what they can understand so they'll come back.
I guess in the U.S. it's about fans/marketing or it's about riders/racing.
(Reguardless wether or not you agree, you have to admire Blakes passion on this topic)
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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:21 pm: |
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The public is easily educated about class displacement limits. If AMAPR so chose, they could easily explain the reasoning behind allowing larger displacements for other than 4-cylinder engines. A simple table showing ALL the major performance parameters would be a start.
But I'm not so "passionate" about the issue only because AMAPR executive management is so pro-Japanese brand biased; I've seen first hand their lack of integrity and their outright attempts to discredit honest people through deceit. They have no honor. That pretty much seals the deal for me. I might be able to live with just one, but both are to much to take. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 01:41 pm: |
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Rocket, quit being so pissy towards Americans, for crap's sake. You initiate it, and we respond...what else would you expect? I mean, if you had a chance to fly in a jet and land on a carrier, wouldn't you take it?
Why doesn't Erik put his money where his mouth is? I'd venture to say that Erik has put more of his money and career into motorcycles than you ever have, and more into racing(yeah, right, Brits aren't arrogant...ask an Irishman). Argue the rule book? Why not, when it keeps changing at every whim of AMAPR? What if Buell had built a 1000cc water-cooled twin motorcycle for Superbike? They would be screwed nowadays in the US, as the lack of success of the privateer Ducatis is showing. What if they had built a 750 four cylinder for Superstock? They would be screwed also.
Ducati spends $25 million a year to race in Superbike (that does NOT include the money for MotoGP!), and ran themselves into bankruptcy doing it. They are alive now due to American investment (Hodgson is riding due to the good graces of the TEXAS Pacific group, Rocket, doesn't that just kill you?), but still struggling financially.
And, face it, none of the national superbike series are at World level, but all of them produce great riders. Australia, Great Britain, USA, Japan, Italy, etc. Hodgson is riding superbly without a doubt, and the racing is closer than it looks, Blake. The Suzukis appear to really be in the hunt. If Yamaha gets serious about the class, they'll probably do well. Kawasaki and Suzuki are basically the same company now, so don't expect a serious effort from Kawasaki.
What has happened in World Superbike and European Superbike classes is that the racing organizations have written rules to keep the field fairly even between brands, and give privateers a shot. AMAPR has not. Ducati has more bikes in the field due to the advantage of having stuck with the plan of selling race replicas to customers for a better value proposition than the Japanese. So you see a lot of non-factory riders on Ducatis. Smart of World Superbike for writing rules that allow them to be competitive.
In the US, this is not the case. Without a doubt the Japanese factory bikes are radically different than what is available to a privateer, and AMAPR doesn't care. It is obvious that the factory bikes are illegal...I mean an R-6 produces less than 100RWHP stock, yet the factory "stock" bikes were pulling nearly significantly faster trap speeds than the 115RWHP FUSA winning modified Yamaha at Daytona. Same deal with the "stock" factory Kawasaki 600.
AMAPR has pretty much screwed things up here, considering the wealth of talent available. The Japanese factories dominate all the classes here in AMA, and frequently do it with the same riders in the different classes. If you don't have a factory ride, you are unlikely to make it.
In Britain, the class has a much better field of dealer/aftermarket sponsored riders, and somehow you have managed to keep the factories from dominating. This provides a better chance for riders like Walker and Hodgson.
In the US, guys like Michael Barnes, Mike Cicotto, Shawn Higbee can never finish better than about 10th in the televised AMA races because of the heavy factory involvement (unless factory bikes break or crash). When they get a chance to go to Europe or Asia, in classes where the factories don't dominate, they finish very well. But they can't get serious sponsorship here.
The idea of Pro Thunder was to give more opportunity for such riders to win, get noticed, etc. More chance for sponsors. The elimination of it, the 750 Superstock, and soon the 250GP are classic evidence of the AMA working to eliminate the privateer, or relegate him to oblivion.
I don't know if my scenario is right, but I know from very valid sources that Buell was working on a program to build production bikes to fit the Pro Thunder rules, etc. How far they were on it, I can't say...maybe they were just talking about it. This was told to AMAPR, who had complained that there weren't enough entries. AMAPR responded that they didn't care, that they should be built for the 750 Superstock class since that was going to be the place for them. Now that has become the 1000cc Superstock class.
As far as the money spent on such a program is concerned, what difference does it make how much was spent? Racing is done for Marketing purposes, not out of altruism. If there was no hope for such a bike to be racing on a nationally televised venue, why would they spend any more money? If several million had been sunk in it, why would they spend more? Stop the bleeding, and plan for the future is what I would do.
Buell is just too small to play in the league of Europe yet, and it's obvious they are fed up with AMAPR. I can only hope that FUSA grows in popularity, and that Buell gets big enough to field an effort in Europe. It breaks my heart that we will probably never see a Buell running in an AMA race again, but if running there meant that they had to build a Japanese I-4 1000, then I'd prefer it that way. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 03:01 pm: |
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It breaks my heart that we will probably never see a Buell running in an AMA race again, but if running there meant that they had to build a Japanese I-4 1000, then I'd prefer it that way."
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Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 06:53 pm: |
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Blake you make me laugh so much. If you lived over here, and I know that'd be tough for any American, never mind a tough talking Texan, despite how much you'd dislike the British way of life, you would absolutely love the bike racing.
I've read this thread often whilst in lurk mode and I do see the points that you make, even if I have no real first hand knowledge of the AMAPR stuff. Having said that, I do take ofence when some of your comments are so over the top, and as in many threads on Badweb these days there is sometimes an element of fierce American patriotism that clouds reality no matter what the topic, hence you knocking the British race series and its riders talents as not been in the same league as your US boys I can't let go by without comment.
We have outstanding circuits here that really are suited to bike racing. They're outstanding because they offer such close racing season after season. The national talent is nothing short of awesome. I won't bother you with the politics of why so many of our fantastic riders don't make the world stage, or when they do they are only there on inferior machinery in usual cases. But no matter what the circumstances of British racing, our domestic Super Bike series is the one watched by governing bodies, manufacturers, teams and riders from pretty much everywhere because it is THE series.
Better than argue this, come see for yourself and be my guest.
Rocket |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 07:42 pm: |
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Going by what I strictly have read & seen for myself, the Brits are absolutely fanatical about bikes. Look at the number & quality of the numerous mags they produce. Performance bike, superbike, fast bikes, etc, etc. Here in the states the mags are all about kissing Hondas ass. Now Honda makes some great machines, but come on now every goddamn issue its another VFR or CBR that is the bestest. The Brits dont pull any punches.
They have a fantastic racing circuit & pack the stands, the fans are rabid with enthusiasm that is definately lacking here. Over there they root for a particular rider, here it seems like we root for a particular brand of machine.
The UK bike websites actively promote racing, you dont see that very often here..maybe an occasional track day but thats about it. They also have access to a whole lot of machines that we can only dream about.
I may not know who actually has better riders, but I know who gets better support from the fan base & the track promoters & it sure as hell isnt us here in the USA. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 08:32 pm: |
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Rocket, quit being so pissy towards Americans, for crap's sake. You initiate it, and we respond...what else would you expect?
Not being pissy at all. Blake made a comment stating that Ducati built a V4 to take on the IL 4's. I simply corrected him on the small detail of the missing cylinder as in Honda V5 !!!!
As I recall I made a comment about the BSB series being the benchmark series in domestic Superbike. Blake spat something at his monitor, then took the piss out of my comment.
I mean, if you had a chance to fly in a jet and land on a carrier, wouldn't you take it?
Yes I'd love to, but hey if I was the President of the most powerful nation on earth, and one which is desperate to show how much it's in touch with the plights of other nations (and cultures) I'd show a little more sentiment and play it down a little by arriving low profile without the need for some hard core military cloth wrapped around my back. .
I'd venture to say that Erik has put more of his money and career into motorcycles than you ever have
That's unfair. Relatively speaking that might not be the case. How do you know how much of my money I've spent on bikes over the years? On my Buell I've spent over £12000 of my money, not to mention the Buell trinkets, clothing and whatever else, and maybe not Eriks fault directly but certainly due to his companies representatives my Buell is fucked. Forget the money, i think my Buell was the nail in the coffin of my marriage to a wonderful woman, so tell me I'm a mug for keeping the faith, and in what? Something I belived in once? Not any more I can tell ya. All I have sat in my garage is a huge waste of money and I'm afraid I might be metamorphised into the next Cecil!
Ducati spends $25 million a year to race in Superbike (that does NOT include the money for MotoGP!), and ran themselves into bankruptcy doing it. They are alive now due to American investment (Hodgson is riding due to the good graces of the TEXAS Pacific group, Rocket, doesn't that just kill you?), but still struggling financially.
You're twisting things a little here aren't you? TPG is one of those venture capital outfits that buy into companies that look like they will bring in huge profits in the near future once they've turned them around, then they sell them for huge profit margin. Last I heard Ducati were still for sale (at a massive profit for TPG)? And I don't believe they're struggling financially at all, at least no more than anyone else at their level. Where did you hear that one?
On the SB racing stuff, you're comments are refreshing and informative. Perhaps you could convince Blake to race in the UK?
It's a shame you have back tracked a little on the XB1350. I think maybe you know more than you're willing to tell?
All that said may I be permitted to once again mention the BSB lap of Donnington by 41 year old Steve Hislop, the one where he went faster than Rossi on his V5. Ok sometimes we like to gloat too
Rocket |
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