| Author | Message | ||
     Rocketsprink |
Good for them. It makes me sick that a company that shows increased profits every quarter has the balls to ask their hourly employees to vote for a 1/3 pay cut and reduced benefits for new employees. Then has the gall to basically hold them for ransom by threatening them with "we'll have to build our new plant elsewhere" What a load. How about cut the Salaried, office, engineering, managements and CEO's income by 1/3? God forbid. How about not build the stupid Museum? Take money away from the people that can afford it the least. Like Henry Ford said. Pay your employees enough so they can buy what they make. Good to see the Union held out. Harley Davidson should be ashamed. (Message edited by rocketsprink on October 16, 2006) | ||
| Khollister |
What plant was this? I don't recall seeing anything about this. What on earth was the rationale given the earnings reports the last few quarters? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2006/10/16/daily9.html?jst=b_ln_hl | ||
| Khollister |
The way I read that, they wanted to cut pension benefits for existing employees, but cut pay for new employees. As far as health care costs increasing, that's hardly unique to HD. There must be more to this - why would existing workers willingly sacrifice pension benefits to expand in WI rather than another state? Something doesn't add up.What on earth made HD think the unions would go for this in the first place? What's in it for the current voting members? | ||
| Lake_bueller |
They also wanted the state to pick up part of the tab for building the new plant/expansion. But to ask employees to take a pay cut is silly. It's not like they're going to loss their jobs. The expansion would have just added more workers. I'm kinda mixed on asking the state to "invest" in the company. If it wasn't for taxpayer money, I wouldn't have my current job. But we're also helping creating jobs in the county and surrounding areas. | ||
| Ducxl |
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmm.....Guatemalan manufactured Harley-Davidson engines'.That'll hold the line on price  | ||
| Imonabuss |
The way I read it, and I read it in as much detail as I could, the offer did not cut pay for anyone currently at the plants, it just cut pay and benefits for new workers to match what H-D could get in other states. It will be very simple, H-D will build a plant somewhere else in the US, like they have done in Kansas City, and the workforce in Wisconsin won't be expanded. You can be sure they won't build it in Guatemala! Hey, maybe they'll build a plant in my home state and I can get a job there! | ||
| Cochise |
yeah, Harvey, maybe so.  | ||
| Rocketman |
I doubt it Harv. I heard they're looking at hiring Mario Illien to head up the water cooled Buell development  Rocket | ||
| Anonymous |
Salaried folks ARE taking it on the chin as far as health benefits are concerned too. ALL of the plans are changing eff Jan 1, 2007. For the first time, you're either going to pay a premium or a subject yourself to "confidential" health assessment - but what's the keep them from charging you more down the line if you have health risks....and what if you don't want someone examining you and putting it down on company record? Salaried bonus for 2005 was about 1/3 of what it was in 2004. Thats right, 2/3 LESS than the previous year! All that "psychic income" and feel good feeling doesn't pay the child support... Good people are leaving (because good people have options to leave) and have left recently for Polaris, Bombardier, KTM, Osk Kosh , NASCAR....and multiple other non-motorsports industries including several VPs and directors who've resigned in the last 12 months. The only upside is that, Harley-Davidson does look nice on your work history!  | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Well, I guess that just means white and blue collar are getting closer to some degree. What kind of bonus did the hourly employees get? Can't blame people for leaving. Health care? That's a beast unto itself. I also don't agree with cutting bonuses. But it wasn't your yearly income that took a hit. I don't ever rely on bonus money anyway. My point being H-D makes enough $$$ where they shouldn't have to penalize their work force, any part of it, to expand their company. | ||
| Slaughter |
Too bad I'm in CA - I'd love to see a plant here or in AZ My advice (worth every penny of what you paid for it) - ABC - "Anywhere But California" | ||
| Blake |
Bring it to Texas! | ||
| Rex |
sorry to hear, but that is the real world. no pensions anymore. who gets retirement anymore? I haven't seen retirement for quite a while. 401 K's supported by you only. health benefits. get in line. we have been paying for our benefits for quite a while. word is profit. build the plant in arizona. would love to have it there. rex | ||
| Court |
Bring it to New York City . . . I'm sure they'd be willing to work for the measly $89.00 (plus 68% benefits) that our local Operating Engineers just settled for. It looks like HD is wanting to pay prevailing wages, on a national basis, just not the wages they are currently paying in Milwaukee. What ever happened to the plant HD built in Chile a couple years ago....or someplace like that? | ||
| Rocketsprink |
Thats pretty stupid of H-D. Prevailing wage is based on the Local Unions wages in that area. Not nationally. I see H-D's point of wanting to save money. But then just build the Plant in a State with lower wages. Don't expect the local works to slit their own throats. Could you imagine working there. Union employees and the guy they hired to run the same machine as you makes 1/3 the wages. Talk about tension. I'm in the Chicago Sprinklerfitters local Union 281. The companies here tried to shove a contract down our throats for residential work. Wanted to start a different Apprentice program and pay people that did residential work 75% of our wage. Then if we, having gone through all the schooling and a 5 year Apprentice program compared to their 2 year, work on a residential job, we'd get knocked down to their wage package. Thank God Chicago is a strong Union town. Needless to say that was voted down and taken off the table. If anything, they'll probably build at one of their other Plants. Who knows? It will be interesting to see what other State is willing to put up the $$ they want to bring their Plant there. Being that a lot of States a broke. | ||
| Whodom |
I'm sure they'd be willing to work for the measly $89.00 (plus 68% benefits) that our local Operating Engineers just settled for. Holy crap! My dad was an operating engineer for ~45 years, but he never made anything like that kind of money. Of course, there's not much chance of NY union-scale wages in rural SC. | ||
| Bigdaddy |
There was a great article, either FT or WSJ IIRC, about the cost of a new car, it was one of the big three, and how much cost was built in to the unit because of retiree costs + health care. I wish I'd of kept it or had a reference to it. A shrewd move by any measure. The big three are getting shredded by retiree compensation measures that were negotiated in a different time/age. Those of us who self-fund everything have a hard time relating,,,,,IMHO. G2 (Message edited by bigdaddy on October 17, 2006) | ||
| Court |
Why do you think Harley-Davidson built their NEW most modern state-of-the-art facility in Kansas City, MO? | ||
| Brucelee |
This is between HD and the workers. I think it is called negotiation. Both sides talk, negotiate and make a deal or not. How is this my business? | ||
| Bigdaddy |
Don't know but I'd guess it would have something to do with 2.5 million employed workers with a union representation rate of just over 10%. Wisconsin shows nearly same number of employed workers with a union representation of 17%. That's a huge chunk of money. What surprises me is they didn't open a production facility in one of the states, there's many, that have nearly no unions and are 'right to work' states. G2 | ||
| Buellgirlie |
court - there's an assembly plant in brazil - still running, bikes get put back together there and sold for less tariff than if they would come into the country whole. bigdaddy - i remember the article. i think it said that the legacy cost of retirees cost more PER car than the steel required to build it! D | ||
| Bomber |
Bruce -- it's your business cuz HDI is a publically traded company nothing new here at all -- I'm not saying it isn't painful (cuz I know from personal experinece that it is), but the folks in the Iron Tower only have to look 60 miles east across Lake Michigan to see what'll happen if they ignore expenses like health care, retirement, and bonuses . . . . . it's a balancing act, with all parties trying to do the best they can -- I would submit that any conspiricy theorists look elsewhere for fodder btw, has anyone thanks big oil for cutting the price of gas lately? ;-} | ||
| Outrider |
I am moderately surprised that the rank and file voted "No" as only a few years ago they accepted a similar threat to save jobs. On the surface, it looks like HD just asked for too much, too soon with the same old line and it didn't take. Then, with the exception of the Milwaukee nostalgia thing, I have no clue as to why HD is still operating in Wisconsin. They should have bailed out in the 1960's when most of the other major manufacturer's either moved south or folded. | ||
| Brucelee |
Bruce -- it's your business cuz HDI is a publically traded company Bomber, please say more, I don't understand? | ||
| Bomber |
publically traded companies (those in which you can buy and sell stock) must operate in a fairly transparent manner -- this allows you to make informed investment decisions -- Sarbanes Oxley (sp?) has drawn the veil from in front of alot of company practices that used to e hidden also, companies and unions both often publicize information about negotiations for the PR value, trying to get folks (including stockholders) on "their" side | ||
| Sweatmark |
This is definitely _our_ business, to watch & learn & hope for the best. Because it's H-D, an American icon and interesting business case study, and because it's indicative of the challenge facing many US businesses, which employ (directly or indirectly) you and I. The issue is the global marketplace, and the real competition is China. And don't start talking about protectionist tariff legislation like that 700cc rule in the 80s... couldn't happen again without dire consequences IMHO. Wisconsin-based manufacturing is in the news 'cause of that state's prior pro-labor posturing... just like California, New England states, Michigan, my home Oregon. Those states' legacy costs are now driving strategic business decisions; health care inflation (muddled messy mixture of market and government) makes things worse. Keep this stuff in mind when you vote next month! Mark Oregon | ||
| Stevasaurus |
BigDaddy / Buellgirlie, This may be the article of which you speak. Even if it isn't, it is quite an eye-opener. 1 in 87 . . . http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/LIFESTYLE03/609260338 /1148/AUTO01 Additionally, here is the Journal-Sentinal article where it states the assemblers pay rate would drop from $27.27/hour to only $18.25/hour. http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=518727 When people get paid $27+/hour to wrench together motorcycles, I wonder why I ever bothered to become an engineer. Go ahead union, follow the UAW down the path to oblivion. Good for H-D! | ||
| Court |
In reading the story again, and I'm willing to listen to others who've read it more carefully. 1.) It gives a current rate for assemblers and newly hired assemblers. I am assuming these are "apple to apple" (both wage rate for new assemblers and not what a CURRENT assembler is making vs. what a new guy/gal walking in would make. Tough to fathom a 25% pay cut. 2) Not at all unusual to have the employee pay some part of their health insurance. It *appears* that HD is picking up the full tab now. I pay a portion of mine as well as a variety of deductibles. I look at health insurance as catastrophic insurance; i.e. I could care less about the $40 prescriptionription, I want protected from the $40,000 unexpected trip the hospital. (note: I learned alot putting Vick's uninsured Dad through 2 visits at $250,000+ each prior to his death - there's a smoking lecture there as well..another time) 3) The discontinuation of the ability to put unlimited amounts in a retirement plan and get a company match is likely due. How cool would it be if you could get an employer match for contributions and there was no limit on contributions. I'm not sure that I have an opinion. But, this certainly is an interesting bell weather as America reshapes manufacturing in the new world order. The old way has some major cracks showing. I said, when I bought my last Ford, that I give Ford 5 years. We'll see. | ||
| Khollister |
Well, that puts a somewhat different light on this. A health plan with no employee costs & no out of pocket expenses for services? That is unheard of - no wonder the bikes are so expensive. I'm sorry, but I have little sympathy on this issue. I am a salaried professional and pay $15/week (no dependants) and have $20-50 copays for service. $27/hr for assembly line workers is also pretty good money. When degreed engineers (many with Masters), who often work over 40 hrs/week with no paid OT get entry level salaries of $25-$30/hr, $18/hr for unskilled labor doesn't seem out of line. While many would like to turn this into some type of class warfare debate, where is the equity in expecting a worker with no college degree, no trade or craft skills, no responsibilities other than show up & perform their individual tasks, no need for creativity or innovation, no travel that takes you away from your family for days or weeks at a time, etc. to get payed the same as an engineer. I agree that tradesmen with specialized skills (machinists, welders, etc.) should be compensated more. The truth is that what a person is paid has to be proportional to the value that person brings to the company as well as the supply & demand constraints for the particular skills, aptitude or training. I take back my earlier comments - the problem here is the entitlement attitude of the workers & their particular union. HD cannot remain competitive with this cost structure. he folks that think the employees are getting screwed is the same guy who bitches because an Electra Glide is $20,000. Can't have it both ways |
