| Author | Message | ||
     Jackbequick |
"..We can not allow untrustworthy individuals to represent us in combat..." Well, don't rush into things now. We can always use them for human mine detectors and some of the other less popular jobs. Every American needs to serve for about two years, military, public health, public projects (parks, etc.), emptying bedpans at VA hospitals, etc., etc. There is something for everyone and everyone needs to serve. Jack | ||
| Cochise |
Ras, I am shocked at your answer on abortion. All I will say again is, it isn't the baby's fault "mommy and daddy" couldn't keep their pants on. If kids would try abstinence, there wouldn't be another baby who was killed, terminated, what ever you want to call it. Think about it. If you were joking, then at least put a smiley on your post or something. | ||
| Grndskpr |
If kids would try abstinence I no zero kids that try that, i mean i am sure there are a few, but i mean come on, that has to be the most far fetched idea i have ever heard Get real, its not happening, you would have better luck with a chastity belt R | ||
| Cochise |
Yeah, I know, but if kids were drilled all their life, they would have a better chance of it, you gotta admit. It isn't impossible, I didn't have sex until I was 21. These days, schools, at least around here, have day cares on campus for students to bring their sex trophys. | ||
| Eboos |
"It isn't impossible, I didn't have sex until I was 21." You aren't mistaking lack of personality and looks for good morals are you?  | ||
| Cochise |
uhhh, good question. Here's my picture, maybe that's why I didn't get laid till I was 21. You be the judge.  | ||
| Rasmonis |
Cochise...no comment (on the pic). My views on abortion are based on my life experiences. Shocking to some - perhaps, my edited statement would have definitely shocked many - I will say no more - sorry. I was having sex @ 13, I'm not bragging or proud of it, that's just they way things happened. I should have two additional kids, the oldest would be 23 by now. I could not imagine what my life or the lives of my children would have been like had I had to take care of a kid @ 14y/o. On the military: Not everyone would take combat jobs and criminals would be assigned to low life expectancy positions like EOD maybe? I'm not saying we should lower the standards, rather place enlistees in jobs which correlate to their abilities and the needs of the public as necessary/appropriate. Why rot in jail when you could have an opportunity to learn a trade and help the community at the same time for criminals? Job availability would depend on the nature of their offense. I was on my way towards becoming a first rate loser had I not joined the service. While that factored in my decision to join, it was my sense of duty to our country why I joined. It was a life altering experience I could not have experienced anywhere. Combat is not for everyone civic duty should be. I realize it would be a nightmare if not impossible to develop and deploy a mandatory military service statute, I firmly believe however that it would benefit many. How many enlistees are discharged due to mental incompetence? That answer would also shock many of you. You'd be surprised to know how many people with serious mental disorders make it in. They don't last long though and are eventually discharged and taken care of at your expense... I can't tell you how many soldiers I discharged because they had no idea what they had gotten themselves into. They though they were going to summer camp! "You mean I may get deployed"? "I didn't know the drill sergeants were going to yell at me"! -Ras (Message edited by Rasmonis on October 06, 2006) (Message edited by Rasmonis on October 06, 2006) | ||
| Cochise |
I guess I don't have much of a comment also. I guess I can see why you have your stance on abortion, and maybe it is a stance because you feel guilty. It is OK, God can forgive you for it. We all make mistakes. Let's say if it is the case of Abortion, what do you think a person at 23 could accomplish if he/shge were here. My Step-son would have been aborted by my wife if she would have known she was pregnant earlier than five months in. Jayme is now 20 and he has passed Surgical Tech School, and is trying, at the moment to enroll at University of Tennessee for Medical School. Who knows how many lives he will save all because the wife saved one. I know, what happened by many parents, or woulds be parents did when they did it. The good thing is future kids will have an excellent chance if they DON'T have an abortion. | ||
| Captpete |
It’s my opinion that this discussion on abortion is looking at a phenomenon that is a symptom of a much bigger problem, and that is the disintegration of our society or maybe even our country. We are losing our mores, and you can see it everywhere you look. We are losing our belief that the individual is responsible for his/her actions. You can see it in our jurisprudence system. We are a nation of law. But the disappearance of belief in that system has caused the need for so many laws that a disproportionate percentage of our lives is spent making and enforcing those laws. Too many lawyers, too many courts, too many jails. Our society is losing its belief in right and wrong and it is trying to shore itself up with more law. Our attitude that abortion should be available to us as a convenience is only another symptom. Our attitude that our elderly should live out the ends of their lives in healthcare facilities or worse rather than the homes of their children is a symptom. The jurisprudence system’s awards of millions to people who were in fact guilty of not watching where they were going is a symptom. We are no longer responsible for our own safety. It’s someone else’s fault. We no longer believe that hard work is the answer, but that instead we deserve many free lunches. The belief that everyone should cheat the government out of as much as possible is a symptom. The belief that our government is the enemy is a symptom. The fact that our government is run by politicians rather than statesmen is a symptom. The list is nearly endless. If it is true that history repeats itself, our country is dying. I have seen the changes during my lifetime. Unfortunately, I have no solutions to these problems. My age allows me to see much farther back than most of you, and that view causes me to fear that I have been part of the problem. I could have done better. | ||
| Blake |
A very good friend and his fiancé got pregnant before they were ready. They adopted out their child. What a noble and unselfish thing to do. She endured the stigma of being a young unwed mother; as a result somewhere today there is a living human being who is very happy she did. When the "if it feels good do it" crowd took control of our courts, abortion became just another method for birth control, that in turn has diminished our society's respect for and the sacredness of innocent human life. There simply aren't any serious consequences to dissuade promiscuous behavior by our children these days. There should be. That's my opinion. | ||
| Blake |
"It’s my opinion that this discussion on abortion is looking at a phenomenon that is a symptom of a much bigger problem, and that is the disintegration of our society or maybe even our country. We are losing our mores, and you can see it everywhere you look." Beat me too it!  | ||
| Eboos |
"I was on my way towards becoming a first rate loser had I not joined the service. While that factored in my decision to join, it was my sense of duty to our country why I joined. It was a life altering experience I could not have experienced anywhere." You and I have something very much in common. But you have to WANT to change, even if you aren't consciously aware of it. I used to tell my recruits that I could provide them with all of the tools that they will ever need as long as they were willing to accept them. "I can't tell you how many soldiers I discharged because they had no idea what they had gotten themselves into. They though they were going to summer camp!" That's what I was talking about as far as recruiters taking short cuts. Out of the 3 years that I recruited, I had only 1 recruit fail to complete boot camp. This kid claimed that he had asthma (which wasn't previously disclosed, even though he did 2 prior physicals at MEPS) the first day there. This kid basicly got cold feet once getting there. On the other hand, I had a 33 year old recruit who after getting a compound fracture in martial arts training, spent 3 months in medical recovery platoon before being allowed to continue with his training. He was in boot camp for over 6 months, and was given many opertunities to get out, and he stuck with it. That is the strength of character our armed services needs. | ||
| Blake |
"Our society is losing its belief in right and wrong and it is trying to shore itself up with more law." A'men! | ||
| Rasmonis |
Cochise/CaptPete/Blake, All excellent, valid and insightful points which I can agree with and cannot dispute. "Who knows how many lives he will save all because the wife saved one." - Wow, what a thought provoking statement. If anything, it appears there are good arguments for both viewpoints and this issue will continue to be fought for and against for many generations. There is no clear cut answer here. We have become a society that places convenience over morality - look at me and what I did as an example. Eboos: Wanting to change is key. I wonder what effect mandatory service would have on our society? Doesn't the commentary on our current situation made by people who are clueless when it comes to military affairs drive you nuts? People expecting military action to be over in a month with 0 casualties are just nuts to me (I couldn't find the right words here). It is frustrating at the very least. War sucks and should be avoided whenever possible, but it is part of living in our world. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is. (Message edited by Rasmonis on October 06, 2006) | ||
| Eboos |
Our military can not become the reformatory for our whole society. Mandatory service would be meaningless without the volentary commitment, otherwise people would just be going through the motions. Sense of duty needs to be instilled by parents, teachers and all other rolemodels, but it can't be forced upon by the government. | ||
| Rasmonis |
Ok, but what about a Civil Service Corps? I haven't been around long enough nor do I have the knowledge to speak intelligently about solving our nation's defunct social programs or how to cure a "dying nation". I do believe that mandatory civil service would work and would make our county a better place by providing individuals a vehicle by which citizens can directly contribute towards nation building and developing personal growth. What other benefits could be tied in to such a program? How about a version of a G.I. bill or direct investments into the stock market, a 401K plan or social security? Could the money earned while working in the CSC be tax free? It would be like adding two or more years to high school. Give college credit, depending on the job or bonuses for re-enlistment. I'm not saying this is a cure all answer, but I think the benefits of such a program would be worth considering. | ||
| Blake |
More excellent discussion. I am humbled and gratified to see it. Y'all rock. | ||
| Cochise |
More excellent discussion. I am humbled and gratified to see it. Y'all rock. Ok, easy there Oprah.  | ||
| Rocketman |
The belief that everyone should cheat the government out of as much as possible is a symptom. The belief that our government is the enemy is a symptom. The fact that our government is run by politicians rather than statesmen is a symptom. A lot can be blamed on the government for 'cheating' on the people. Rocket | ||
| Jimidan |
Eboos sez: "Our military can not become the reformatory for our whole society. Mandatory service would be meaningless without the volentary commitment, otherwise people would just be going through the motions. Sense of duty needs to be instilled by parents, teachers and all other rolemodels, but it can't be forced upon by the government." Our military has become a reformatory for the dregs of society. My son-in-law is an Army drill sargent at Ft. Knox, and his best friend is a recruiter. You should be in the same room when these guys are talking 'bout the status of recruits that make up the body of our military today. "Bottom of the barrel" is an often heard description..."really, really, "dumb" can be heard too. According to these guys who are in the know..."We are in serious trouble." The Army has significantly lowered its standards and it is still way behind on recruiting goals. Now I know there are good folks who are joining too, but they aren't making much of an impression on the folks trying to train them. jimidan | ||
| Jimidan |
Rocketman sez: "Jimi, if you want to spend your time chasing my comments up in every thread then good luck to ya. My comment in this thread was a joke for my good friend Capt Pete. I and my comment really had nothing to do with this topic. I haven't followed it one bit. I saw Capt Pete's name come up in the tree search and always look to see what Pete writes. I wouldn't feel comfortable arguing with a racist in any case. You'd be to easy. Rocket" "Racist"? WTF? Was Darwin's findings "racist" when he conducted his research on Madagascar? You bandy about in the politics of personal attack...ever thought of becoming a politician in the USA? FWIW, I am not chasing you...shucks son, you write something in every thread on here. jimidan | ||
| Eboos |
"Our military has become a reformatory for the dregs of society. My son-in-law is an Army drill sargent at Ft. Knox, and his best friend is a recruiter. You should be in the same room when these guys are talking 'bout the status of recruits that make up the body of our military today. "Bottom of the barrel" is an often heard description..."really, really, "dumb" can be heard too. According to these guys who are in the know..."We are in serious trouble." The Army has significantly lowered its standards and it is still way behind on recruiting goals. Now I know there are good folks who are joining too, but they aren't making much of an impression on the folks trying to train them." If that is true, then this country is truly lost. Although I was never a Drill Instructor, I will say that everyone, no matter what their qualifications are will be thought of as "dumb" until they have proven themselves. The recruits are the rookies, the probies, the FNGs, they never have, nor will they ever will get the respect of those training them until long after they graduate. As far as lowering standards goes, you aren't going to catch tuna if you are looking for catfish. Increasing insentives would be the way to go to attract the highly qualified. Lowering standards is only going to destroy our military in both the short and the long term. | ||
| Rasmonis |
Cochise this one's for you...  I have others that I need to scan (pre-digital days) that'll have you guys rolling... What a dork eh? | ||
| Eboos |
This is good. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/10/06/border.fence.ap/index.html One of the complaints is that it is basicly making it harder and more expensive to illegally cross the border... and that is a problem?  You know that banks having a safe is an unfriendly gesture, and makes it harder to rob them. | ||
| Blake |
"A lot can be blamed on the government for 'cheating' on the people." Not in America. You see Sean, over hear, the government is run by we "the people." | ||
| Blake |
"Our military has become a reformatory for the dregs of society." I cannot disagree more strongly. Very unfortunate a fellow American would see fit to state such a horribly inaccurate characterization of our military personnel. Shame on you. (Message edited by blake on October 07, 2006) | ||
| Captpete |
Not in America. You see Sean, over hear, the government is run by we "the people." That’s what it says on paper, Blake, but that’s not the way it works. Here’s how it works in my opinion. The people don’t run the country; they elect the politicians who run the country. The politicians hold the purse strings at the top of the “The people” are cheated every time the government irresponsibly pays $3,000 for a toilet seat, or some other similar purchase that could be substantiated through some research. (I’m not bothering for this post; we all know it’s true.”) Those are just a couple of examples that come to mind. If you don’t believe both the government and the people are cheating each other, your idealism has made you blind. But like I said, it’s all just another symptom. But I covered that one when I mentioned politicians vs. statesmen. (Ross Perot could have fixed that one, but he never got the chance.) While I’m at it, I’ll cast my vote for reinstatement of the draft – no deferments. None! The privileged will serve/fight next to the poor. If you got a penis, you’re in! Every male citizen will make a two-year investment in his country. I guarantee that over the following 30 years, there will be a dramatic change of attitude amongst the citizenry toward their country, and that change will address many of the symptoms I mentioned earlier. There is a Chamorro (local) phrase that is on the back window of many vehicles here on Guam. The translation is: Stop the Bullshit. It makes reference to government here, which I suppose means that in the States, it could be worse than it is. It’s laughable here. I’d worry, except I know if it gets too bad, the Feds will take over. OK, let's hear it for Ross Perot.   | ||
| Rocketman |
Not in America. You see Sean, over hear, the government is run by we "the people." That's an inaccurate..................... Rocket | ||
| Jon |
Irish out of America!! America has been stolen by big business. Believe it. | ||
| Jimidan |
Blake sez: ""Our military has become a reformatory for the dregs of society." I cannot disagree more strongly. Very unfortunate a fellow American would see fit to state such a horribly inaccurate characterization of our military personnel. Shame on you." First, I am not saying it about our military personnel in general, as I said, we were "talking 'bout the status of recruits that make up the body of our military today." Second, on what are you basing your most strong disagreement? I am hearing it from the horse's mouth. Third, I didn't make this stuff up...I am personally hearing it from those who are recruiting these people, and those who are trying to train them. There is a general consensus amongst these professional military recruiters and trainers at Ft. Knox. I have been to parties at my son-in-law's house near Ft. Knox, where nearly all of the attendees were either drill Sargents or recruiters. They are kind of like cops in that they socialize together. It is shocking to hear what they say about the quality of todays recruits! Shocking! I do not relish in the thought that our armed forces are being restocked with these people. The recruiters tell me that they can't get good recruits any more because of the war in Iraq and an improving economy, and the way that the Dept. of Defense redeploys them for tour after tour after tour...with no end in sight. They are offering $20,000 signing bonuses, more money for college and more recruiters and are still falling farther behind their quotas every day. This stuff has been widely reported over the last year. These military professionals live it every day, and I have no reason to disbelieve what they tell me, and that is that they have an impossibly tough sell to get people to sign on. These are dedicated military professionals who do not have a political agenda, but are concerned about the general decline in the quality of recruits since it is their service that is suffering. I even asked them if what I was hearing was just the nearly stereotypical drill sargent/maggot relationship that is often portrayed in movies? The answer was a resounding , "No". They are talking about a serious decline in quality. But don't take my word for it, ask any recruiter that you know well enough that they feel like they can be candid with you. And, don't shoot me...I am only the messenger. jimidan |
