| Author | Message | ||
     Blake |
Life begins at conception. That is not up for debate I don't think. Is it? Are their people who don't believe that a fetus is alive?  Maybe you meant something else, "cognitive life" maybe? In stark frank terms, the pro-abortion stance is one of valuing personal choice over the life of the innocent and defenseless. Somehow our liberal Supreme Court justices of the day found that our constitution contains a right protecting personal choice but not the innocent and defenseless. That seems totally whack to me. Seems we should be looking out first and foremost for the innocent and defenseless. Yes, we are all behaving honorably in this thread. Very cool.  | ||
| Jon |
Irish out of America!! | ||
| Blake |
Instead of trying to treat a symptom, I think the pro-choicers would do all women and men a favor if they would turn their focus upon the root of the issue, the act of conception. That is where the true and honorable choice exists. But that thinking doesn't fit well with the "if it feels good, do it" and ultra-feminist crowds. (Message edited by blake on October 01, 2006) | ||
| Blake |
The extremes make a decision easy. You'd think so. I'd think so. Unfortunately it is not the case. Why do some oppose putting an end to the abhorrent practice of partially delivering a baby then puncturing its skull and scrambling its brains? That is so freaking evil! | ||
| Brucelee |
Blake, Agreed on your last point. To me, the whole thing is incomprehensible. Now, executing Bin Laden, well, that is OK with me. | ||
| Chainsaw |
I wonder how many mothers are pressured into abortions by the father or others around them. I gotta say, I think it is inheirently unfair that the father of the baby-to-be has no legal right to stop the mother from having an abortion.  The LAW considers males as check-writing sperm donors, not fathers. | ||
| Mr_grumpy |
"Would you force a child on an unfit parent?" More to the point, would you force an unfit parent on a child? | ||
| Cochise |
I still say that is wrong for any woman or man to say, "it's my Body, it's my choice". The baby is not the body, if it was a choice for a body it would be whether or not she should get rid of a spare kidney or not, or to remove a spleen. If a "mother" is getting rid of a kid so she doesn't have to give up her life is pretty bad. The thing about aborting a baby because of a rape or incest is bad too (I believe) because of the psychological problems for the mom, which are sometimes worse than the rape. Saying they are doing a "late-term abortion (Partial Birth), well that isn't good either, the reason why, the baby is halfway out, what are they going to do stuff the baby back in the mommy? Heck no, they are either going to cut him up into pieces or the baby wilol be born anyway. Yeah, that's a smart thing to do. When does life start? When does a Ham sandwich become a ham sandwich? A ham sammitch is a ham sammitch when the ham (sperm) meets the bread pieces(egg). | ||
| Blake |
Not sure I'll be eating any ham sandwiches any time soon.  | ||
| Cochise |
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| Jackbequick |
"..Yes, we are all behaving honorably in this thread. Very cool..." Good point, I'm enjoying reading the perspectives on the issues. It is so complex, we have not really touched on all the issues. I think I know where I stand on it, I see it as a personal and moral issue. If a woman is comfortable with her decision on it then I see it as her right. If she feels that it is morally wrong then she wouldn't of course. But I think the decision needs to be made very early. I know many disagree with me and it is their right to disagree. The complexity of it all, the father's role and rights, etc., really make it a tough call. I guess we would all agree that murdering the "murderers" (doctors that perform abortions) is not justified? People that defend the clinic bombings and murders really scare me. Of course in a state with the death penalty murdering the murderers that murdered the murderer would be okay... It's ironic that Bush defended his role in the use of the death penalty against criminals as the Governor of Texas but finds life so precious in non criminal or other forms. Jack | ||
| Randlepmcmurphy |
I just gotta say wow this thread is still going? Haven't you all given up by now.  | ||
| Brucelee |
"It's ironic that Bush defended his role in the use of the death penalty against criminals as the Governor of Texas but finds life so precious in non criminal or other forms" I don't see that as incompatible at all. I can tell you that when my uncle was murdered in a robbery, I would have had no issue with his killers being executed. I do think that civilized society has a right to expect that life IS precious and there are penalties for the wanton taking of a person's life. I have no issue with the principle that one of these penalties can be the loss of your own life. | ||
| Bomber |
this thread DOES give one pause -- i'ts not drifted toward the animous often displayed -- "stand for nothing/fall for anything" is a great old chestnut -- while there are some that may stand for nothing, I'm not one of them -- the core of English Common Law is fine with me . . . . don't kill me don't hurt me don't take my stuff this pretty much sums it up where it gets tough is when we start dividing things into finer grains -- "Life begins at conception. This is not up for debate. Is it?" Clearly not for some, just as clearly, yes, for others. "Life" is a toughie to define -- there are a number of definitions, which include the scientific, religious, and legal. The line of reasoning often used is that "my religion states such and so, and, therefor the law should too" is a bit, er, lacking in logic. Thos ethat make these statements often cherry pcik which things their religion states to follow, and ignore others ... if they truely believed this kind of rationale, all mastubators, football players, and most NASCAR drivers would all be in jail, albeit for different reasons my stance on the abortion issue is steered, at least in part, by the loss of a very dear friend in High School who dies during a highly illegal, but patently moral, abortion procedure performed by a butcher. Am I the only one that's noticed that the community debating this issue is primarly (or, in the case of this board, exclusively) homosocial? ;-} | ||
| Brucelee |
I don't think you need to be "religious" to believe that life starts at "conception" because I think most scientists would agree that "life" DOES start at conception. It develops from there but it does START there. Where society wants to start acknowledging this life and protecting it, well, that is what the dialog is about. The dialog is also about what society says about giving up your OWN life when you step out of bounds and say, take another's life from them. I find it interesting that I know a number of folks who will go down the street to picket and support a woman's right to "choose" to abort her child to be and the next day, tell we how horrible the death penalty is and how we NEED to stop this carnage. I guess I find that just a BIT strange. Back to Blake's earlier post, I am at a loss to explain how anyone can support "partial birth" abortions. The fact that this is LEGAL disturbs me greatly. Candidly, that is about as close to premeditated murder as you can get and not go to jail. IMO. | ||
| Road_thing |
"homosocial" Damn, Bomber, I had to go look that one up! Fortunately, Wikipedia's definition made no references to two old guys in matching jackets riding two-up into a motel parking lot... rt | ||
| Bomber |
grin -- I figure it's a good day if I can send someone to the dictionary with a properly spelled word !!! You and I do not (yet) appear in the internet together, Thang, so I think our secret's safe! | ||
| CJXB |
You want a mother to take care of you, watch over you, protect you, rescue you at the first hint of danger, she is going to be in your business all the time. A freaking Men !!! You want to be grown, be responsible for yourself and stop whining for hand outs !! I wish I knew the answers to the issues in this thread, I don't. I'm not for or against capital punishment, but I'll never be responsible for another human being put to death, including being on a jury to do so. You try to hurt/kill me or my loved ones, I feel justified in fighting back. As for abortion I'd never have that on my conscience either, but I have never been in a place some have that did choose that route. Don't know who said it, but my little IQ can't figure out the correct answers either, this thread does have some good opinions/views that do give food for thought !! Fortunately, Wikipedia's definition made no references to two old guys in matching jackets riding two-up into a motel parking lot... Aaahh, but the big question is if one or both of you got pregnant during that ordeal, would abortion be an option !!?? | ||
| Bomber |
Ceej -- if that were the case, I'm thinkin we coulda sold the story for BIG dough! course, given the gene pool involved, I'm thinkin it may have been mandated | ||
| Blake |
Whew! That was close! I want to sincerely thank you CJ for saving us from overt rampant homosociality. BadWeB, NOT homosocial! | ||
| Grndskpr |
Damn, Bomber, I had to go look that one up! Fortunately, Wikipedia's definition made no references to two old guys in matching jackets riding two-up into a motel parking lot... You and I do not (yet) appear in the internet together, Thang, so I think our secret's safe! Have you two ever heard of urban dictionary . com, you can add your own definitions R | ||
| Grndskpr |
As far as the topic is concerned, at least the current topic A man will never be able to decide what a women could want to do with her unborn child If you can not experience it, you can not actually have any idea as to what is goning on Its not an easy decition, its not simple its not black or white, yes i am aware you will tell me its wrong, and belive it or not, i suspect a lot of women in that position think the same, but i will say it again, a man can say what he belives, or what he thinks is true, but a man will never know i think everlast said it best: Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom who said he was in love He said don't worry about a thing baby doll I'm the man you've been dreamin' of But three months later he said he won't date her or return her call And she sweared god damn if I find that man I'm cuttin' off his balls And then she heads for the clinic and she gets some static walkin' through the doors They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner, and they call her a ••••• [CHORUS] God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes 'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose Then you really might know what it's like [X4] I've seen a rich man beg I've seen a good man sin I've seen a tough man cry I've seen a loser win And a sad man grin I heard an honest man lie I've seen the good side of bad And the down side of up And everything between I licked the silver spoon Drank from the golden cup Smoked the finest green I stroked daddies dimes at least a couple of times Before I broke their heart You know where it ends Yo, it usually depends on where you start Reserve judgment for someone higher, revenge and judgment should be left to something else again and as always MHO R | ||
| CJXB |
I want to sincerely thank you CJ for saving us from overt rampant homosociality. I don't even have time to get out the dictionary, so I don't know what you just said, but your welcome !! Ha, me saving anyone from anything !! | ||
| Road_thing |
R: You're the very soul of reason. And thanks again, thanks a million again, for the loan of the Black Death Barge this summer!  How was the tequila? rt | ||
| Grndskpr |
How was the tequila? Have yet to try it, there were to many people at the last party and it seems suburbia has a restriction on how much one will drink, only one bottle was finished and that was open prior to the pig roast It will be opened soon, thaksgiving and old halows ever is almost upon us as far as the voice of reason thats a first as far as the bike any time, not even an issue R | ||
| Brucelee |
"Reserve judgment for someone higher, revenge and judgment should be left to something else again and as always MHO" To me, this is not about judging someone or revenge etc. If a woman has a unborn child within here, I DO NOT think she has the right to simply discard it (have it terminated, killed) simply because she does not want to conceive. This is not a body part, it is a developing child and I don't believe ANYONE has the right to terminate this child simply because is is not wanted. She DOES have the right to place that child up for adoption after it is born and God willing, there will be plenty of parents who desire to have this child rearing experience. | ||
| Prez |
O.M.G ................................................................................ ...........................................FFS, GIVE IT UP!!!! | ||
| Prez |
AND JUST SO YA KNOW,MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOUR GOD! AND MY DAD CAN KICK YOUR DADS ASS TOO!!!! | ||
| Brucelee |
AND JUST SO YA KNOW,MY GOD IS BETTER THAN YOUR GOD! AND MY DAD CAN KICK YOUR DADS ASS TOO!!!! ???????????????? | ||
| Blake |
Roger, I agree that we shouldn't judge others. None of us have that right, as none of us are without imperfection. I do think it is valid to look out for and protect the innocent and defenseless. I agree with Richard (Brucelee) that being opposed to abortion is not an issue of judgement or revenge, not at all. I suspect that kind of misinterpretation is one reason the issue can become so horribly divisive. To sum up my view, I'm a big proponent of the "be excellent to each other" philosophy as are most good folks. I don't think that elective abortion fits that philosophy where the unborn baby is concerned. Having one's limbs ripped apart and one's brain crushed or punctured and scrambled ain't what I would call "doing unto others as I would have others do unto me." In a spiritual sense or in a karmic sense, I think America is amassing a terrible debt for our arrogant and glib disrespect for innocent human life. Bomber, I'm sorry, so sorry to hear about your friend. |
