| Author | Message | ||
     Troythetroll |
Hello. My name is Troy, and Mike in Cheeseland told me it would be alright to stop in here and visit to try and solve a perplexing Buell problem I have been having over at alt.motorcycle.sportbike. With only 1 regular Buell riding member and another intermittent member at AMS, the impression some of us have gotten is that Buells, while entertaining to Harley Davidson riders who can be convinced that a Buell is a sportbike, is that Buells do not see the racetrack, for whatever reason. The Battletrax series simply reinforces this particular opinion, so I have been bashing some of the Buell riders pretty heavily lately, trying to find ANY one that might actually take their Buell to the track. My requests have been in vain, Mike and the intermittent member of AMS are both pretty terrified of taking their machines to the track. Now, this lack of fortitude can be construed as a validation of the theory that Buells, as amusing as some might find them for lightweight puttering around the street, are pretty much incapable of hard and regular, full bore racetrack use. I'm not talking about racing, I'm talking about hitting the local closed course once a month regularly, if only to play around with others of a like mind. While others might take this reluctance on the part of the Buell riders as a natural consequence of their ride, I am harder to convince. Buells are raced...in both "spec" series as well as the occasional diehard trying to take on superior machinery just for fun. If a Buell can be raced, then no matter how questionable its hard riding street reliability is, it must be at least reliable enough that it can run a few hot laps somewhere without blowing up, ergo, it can run slower laps in the hands of a less experienced rider at the local track. Herein lies the problem....5 years of visiting the local racetrack and not a single Buell sighting to date. Ducks of all shapes and sizes, everything Japanese of course, club racers practicing on both brands as well, but Buells? None. Not a single one, and my experience with the local track is at least 4 years old and includes thousands of miles logged there myself in that time period. I have seen a Buell at the track...once. VIR, July-2001 at a Reg Pridmore CLASS. At the time ( this would be pre-Firebolt ) I had about as much interest in Buells as I do in Harley Davidsons in general. This experience didn't help that impression much, about all I can remember about that bike that day is it looked like it was dragging a boat anchor it was going so slow. That could be a reflection of its rider as much as the bike, a characteristic of running motorcycles that makes them so interesting compared to, say, cages. After having seen my first Firebolt sometime ago and sat on one, it appears to have some interesting bits, but when it costs $10G's and still has its world renowned Harley engine, it effectively costs too much, doesn't make much power, weighs too much, and until Erik gets real and drops even a lightly tuned SuperHawk or TL1000S engine into it, I will restrain myself. To the quandery and question. Is anyone here in the Denver Front Range Area and interested in showing me a Buell in action during one of the Thursday night bike nights at Second Creek raceway, held between about now and sometime in September/October, weather permitting. I'm not interested in people dodging cones in parking lots, I care not about people who consider sporty street riding to be anything other than sporty street riding, the street is not the track, and Second Creek raceway is a place BUILT for Buells if there ever was one. But considering the advantages a Buell might have there, still, I have never seen one. Would anybody be interested in providing a little education? | ||
| Johnc |
Troll, you must really be bored if this is all you have to do. Maybe you should go out to the track and try to validate your manhood some more. And by the way, you might want to revise the top speed claim in your profile, the only SV650 that goes 170 mph is one dropped out of an airplane from very high altitude. | ||
| Dynarider |
Welcome Troy, I gotta say I have been reading yours & mikes comments & a lot of it is true..pretty funny also. If I lived in your area I would definately take you up on your offer. Have had my X1 on the track quite a few times, not afraid to thrash it or drop it. Unfortunately however it has been diagonsed with broken motor syndrome & has been sitting for 7 months...thats the part you speak of thats correct. As far as machines on tracks go, I think you know as well as I do that its the rider a hell of a lot more than the bike. I have passed more than 1 ZX12R or R1 on tracks like Blackhawk or Road america. Does this mean the Buell is superior to those bikes? No, it simply means that perhaps I am a better rider than the folks on those particular bikes. | ||
| Troythetroll |
Notice the picture in the profile...the sv has only been mine for 60 days, its first outing is May 26 at Laguna. That VIR trap speed was indicated, on the Honda. Anything else you didn't pay attention to you would like me to clear up for you? | ||
| Dynarider |
Hold on a sec, let me get some popcorn & sit back to enjoy the fireworks. This outta be good.  | ||
| Troythetroll |
Dyna, nice to make your acquintance. After poster #1 I thought maybe everybody here was as bad as Mike, but I'm willing to give it a go. And yes, I have been doing trackdays since 89, I am quite familiar with the concept of slower bike, better rider, everybody else gets passed. Chuck Sorenson on an R6 versus my 929 comes to mind...however, Buells have alot of things going against them, and based on my impressions from AMS, I was thinking that maybe NO Buell riders went to the track unless there was some contingency money involved. | ||
| Dynarider |
Nah, we have a few that go. Dave in Iowa had his X1 now he has a 1050 lil bolt that he takes to quite a few track days. A number of the windy city brag members also attend days at Blackhawk. The Buells in the right hands actually do pretty well on the tighter tracks, if it wasnt for that damn tendancy to blow up motors they would be even more fun  Looking to pick up a used 600 yammy for track days right now...just want something that wont grenade every time I twist the throttle up a bit. | ||
| Troythetroll |
Are they really that bad then? Whats the problem, they just can't take high rpm's for any length of time? Oil pickup in the wrong place? Typical domestic cage issue...redline is a "kinda rev here but don't keep it there" thing instead of a Japanese "hit redline and hold it there for 24 hours because we built it right" issue? Seriously, it would explain the lack of Buells at most places I've been if they have a reputation for not being able to handle the loads and issues a racetrack entails. Things like the oil always being forward in the sump, at the back, plastered against the side. I would think some of the dry sump systems, this wouldn't be a problem? Are Buells primarily wet or dry sump systems? Anyway, thats what the other Bueller at AMS does, you ask him to show you what his S2 can do and he squeals and runs like a stuck pig for a Kawasaki 600cc trackbike. Now that I have moved down into the ranks of non sportbikes, I'm paying alot closer attention to second class local tracks, particularly tight ones, for the same reason as Buells might. Limits the abilities of literbikes to stretch there legs, keeping them close if you can use your smaller bike well. | ||
| Daves |
Troy the troll, I would love to run with you at the track. I'll be at MidAmerica in Glenwood Iowa on May 26th doing a track day. You could come out for the weekend Formula USA races and stay Monday(Memorial Day) to do the track day. I can email you the forms and everything. I am an agent for Edge Performance Riding Track Days. Could be a great time! I've only been doing track days since 2000 so you have lots more practice time than me. Whaadda you say Troy, can you come out to play? Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Waterloo Ia dave@iowaharley.com | ||
| Skully |
BLAKE! Tell this guy about your track experiences and recent races... Keith | ||
| Troythetroll |
DaveS, thanks for the offer. Keep me in mind for anything this fall, never been to MidAmerica but have heard its an interesting place, and it isn't even as far away as most tracks I head to. However, May 26th, me and the baby Zook are doing Laguna, and you can understand why I wouldn't miss that for MidAmerica. However, late-September, most of October before it starts getting too cold? You betcha. | ||
| Henrik |
Troy; keeping your online persona choice of name in mind here goes  I've been doing track days since 1998. I'm now up to 8-12 days a year depending on schedule and $$. The first 3 years I did on my S3 - probably a total of 10 - 12 track days in that period. The S3 did quite well in that setting. I'm not a great rider, but not too shabby either. Sorta mid pack in the intermediate group. All I did to the S3 was a bit of safety wire and S1 bars. Through anything with corners I'd hang with anyone in my group. On the straights the in-line 4s would blow me away, and then I'd catch them again in the corners. Mechanically not a single problem. I had to add peg risers, and the last season I had to remove the side stand as well - despite a shorter Penske shock ( = more ride height in the rear). So to make a long story longer. The Buell did just fine for track duty. I've also met several other Buell owners during track days. I guess that answers your question? As a follow-up to that; in 2001 I bought an SV650 and set it up as a more dedicated track bike - still street (semi) legal, but biased towards track. I bought is mostly because I realized it would likely cost me as much to crash the S3 as it would buying a used SV. Good thing I did too Besides, more track days on your street bike/daily rider is not such a good idea - do it for long enough and you will put yourself on your head. The SV is fun, and has forced me to practice a lot more to become faster. The Buell torque I realized had made me quite lazy. Also the SV has a huge aftermarket for customizing/fitting it to your size and style of riding. Henrik | ||
| Troythetroll |
Henrik, so, sounds like you've run your Buell quite alot at the track without trouble. Excellent. Any trouble with the SV at the track yet? As far as taking your street bike to the track, I've been doing that since 89. First CSS on their 600 Ninaja's, then my own 900RR, FZR400,F4,929, and next month the SV starts. I beleive when I sold the F4 approx. 40% of its total mileage was track mileage. All of these bikes were street bikes, full lights and electrics, etc etc. I would tend to agree with the wisdom of having a dedicated trackbike, but I've been breaking that particular rule for so long I can't in all honestly say anyone HAS to do that. But the idea makes lots of sense. Anyway, can you think of any reason why, with people obviously taking their Buells to the track, I'm not running into more of them? So far I notice that lots of Buellers have a Mid-Western bent, is that where most of them reside? I got my SV in February specifically as a street bike with pretensions of sportiness. Within the first month I had the front Racetech'd right off the bat for an intermediate road racer, pitched the rear shock and installed a Penske 8987, EBC pads without SS lines, and the new tires will go on right before Memorial day and Track Day #1. Just enough mods to make myself a royal pain to big bikes at tight little tracks methinks. Not a clue as to how badly I'm gonna get whupped at Laguna but it will be fun finding out. I wonder if I'll see any Buells there? | ||
| Henrik |
No problems with the SV on track - yet. The 2 crashes I've had I can't blame on the bike. Rider error entirely Street bikes on track: I guess what I should have said was, that if you *need* your street bike to get to work and such, think carefully before taking it to track. Falling down happens - even to good people - and it's always more expensive and time consuming than you'd want it to be Can't think of why you don't run into Buells at the track. There aren't that many, but they're there. I went with the EBC kit pads rather than the EBC HH. Supposedly much more predictable. I've heard good things about the Vesrah pads as well. Whooped at Laguna: well, they say it's mostly the rider ... I went to STAR school last year, and one of the instructors there, Dean Mizdal - he rides in AMA Superbike races - were running little circles around a couple of fast friends (RC51 and an F3) of mine ... on a bone stock SV. Upright bars, stock shock, full lights etc. Good luck on the SV. I think you'll like it for track. You should sign on to the SV racers list: the "Sport Twin" list at www.micapeak.com. There are a lot of very fast and knowledgeable guys on there. Henrik | ||
| Blake |
Troy, I've put close to 1,000 miles since February 2002 lapping Oak Hill Raceway on my '97 M2 Cyclone. Like you I run my bike both on street and track. She is my only bike. Bought her in Queens NY two years ago with only 6,900 miles. Rode her all the way to Texas, via the Blue Ridge Parkway, Deal's Gap, and Cherohala Skyway. Last Spring, I had some performance work done to the engine by Nallin Racing, previously of Shreveport, LA fame, now of Frederick, CO fame. She now puts down right at 100 RWHP with 80 FT-LBs of torque kicking in at just 3K rpm. Daddy like.  The Cyclone is a bit heavy for a track bike, but it handles surprisingly well. I have lowered the front end by raising the forks ~6mm in the clamps with the result being perfectly neutral steering, no steering damper needed. I have the race kit exhaust and I'm currently running Michelin Pilot DOT race treads, hard in back, medium in front. My all time best lap is 12 seconds off the outright moto track record at Oak Hill Raceway (local track) and 11 seconds off the record set back in '94 by some dude named "Collin Edwards". His record stood for four years. Recent repaving facilitated further improvements by the current crop of young guns. I entered my first race last Sunday. Ran unltd GP, Formula 40 (old guys' race) and Thunderbike. I started dead last in all three due to late registration. My best finish was 4th in the Thunderbike race out of a field of seven amateurs. I also managed to get by a couple of experts. I was riding conservatively, never touched a puck to pavement the entire day; best lap time was two seconds off my personal best. Anyway, I love my Buell. Wouldn't have another bike as my only ride. Wouldn't mind adding an R1150GS and a Duc999RS to the stable... Someday maybe. I haven't had any serious trouble in close to 50K miles of riding Buells. Though many Buellers have had serious troubles, some repeatedly, most have not. An invitation... Keith (Skully) on his F3 and I on my Cyclone are planning on racing Hallet, OK on May 23rd (practice) and 24th (GT races). Show up, take the racer's school, get your yellow shirt, and let's race. We can go heads up in GTU. My engine work involved a big bore top end which puts me 40cc above the limit for the GTL and other lightweight classes that the SV's dominate. Or, you can watch a little video a friend shot. Be sure to crank up the sound... ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) Buell Power Oh, almost forgot... I'm not the only CMRA Buell racer. There is a guy running an otherwise stock race kitted XB9R. This is his first year road racing. Blake (CMRA #131 AM) PS: The SV is an excellent choice in a track bike. | ||
| Jim_Witt |
Troy, I'm still putting together my track bike and when I do, I'll head up to your neck of the woods.  -JW:> (CMRA #315-405 AM) | ||
| Dynarider |
Ya know Blake the more I look at that yellow helmet of yours the uglier it gets Are you required to wear a yellow one as a rookie or whats the deal? | ||
| Bads1 |
Wes aka RacerX1 from Ukes Brag club does alot of racing all over the place.He might be able to hook up with you at one race or two.Maybe we can get him to join this conversation as well. | ||
| Daves |
Troy, I'd rather do Laguna than MAM too! We have a track weekend planned in late Aug. 30-31st that way you could justify the trip better by having two days on the track instead of just one. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Waterloo Ia dave@iowaharley.com | ||
| Troythetroll |
Henrik, I understand completely your comment on good riders on smaller/slower bikes blasting slower riders on bigger/ faster bikes. However, once you reach a point or are riding with people where most people are reasonably competent, I can assure you that sometime, somewhere, the smaller slower bike gets its head handed to it. Reg Pridmore on his Intercepter versus my old 929 on race tires comes to mind, my F4 against quite a few R1's and RC51's at Road Atlanta would be another example. While at certain tracks it is quite a bit easier than others to pull this off. Passing rules at any particular venue come into play as well. CLASS and its outside passing rules tend to handicapp smaller bikes quite heavily. But a place like DP which allows inside and outside passing, well, thats a different animal. Laguna, if you haven't been there, tends to be a high speed, high speed cornering game. Which means it is very difficult if you can't come back around everyone in the corners to make up for what an R1 does to an SV650 down all of the short straights of reasonable length which connect the corners. I don't care if the SV is being ridden by Rossi, at some point in time at a track like that a properly ridden bigger bike is going to get around you easily, and then it is going to be difficult to return the favor. I've tried this game over quite a few years on quite a few bikes and have examples from both sides of the contest. My F4 getting its head handed to it at Road Atlanta, and that same F4 at a tight little track like Second Creek blowing by Blackbirds, RC51's, R1's and everybody else in my way a particular afternoon. Another example would be my old FZR400, on the right road it was unstoppable by nearly anything, but the instant you run a reasonable straight between corners you got gotten. And then it became very difficult short of doing something very dangerous to get back around the person in front. The SV has some outstanding characteristics to date, it turns well, not as good as that old FZR400 but with more stability, it to date has outstanding cornering clearance, something I need ( I've got pictures of where I touched down the 929's engine cases at Laguna ) its powerband is quite wide and it makes reasonable power. However, most of its advantages take place up to 100mph, after that, and Laguna has corners you tip into that fast, you had better have a plan worked out because the literbikes are going to be knocking on your door a nano second after they get vertical. | ||
| Racerx1 |
Troy the troll, Good to hear about people getting out on the track! SV's are great bikes, no doubt. After Buell, my next favorite make of bike is Suzuki....have a TL1000S in the garage as well. I currently have two Buell race bikes, both were bought from the Buell racer support program through Buell very reasonably (<$3000). Both were old product development bikes. I have an X1 and S1 Lightnings, both of which will be raced in AHRMA Battle of the Twins, CCS, and WERA. Have I had problems, yes.....but i can honestly say not as much as my GSXR600 racebike which droped a valve and took out the whole top end of the motor. Two weeks later, it locked the tranny. My Buells have been very reliable, and is the case with most racing bikes, the key is correct preparation. I'm speaking of the tube frame bikes of course.....The new XB's address 99% of the preparation you want to look at from the tube framers standpoint. There are some simple modifications that will make the Buells hundreds of times more reliable in a race environment. I love racing the Buells. They get a lot of attention and have proven very competitive in the classes I race (none of which are spec classes, but with the exception of an occasional Formula USA thunderbike round, admittedly grass roots/Club racing). A lot of the spectators who show up are on Harleys, and there have been a couple of times I've had to politely excuse myself from talking with them to prepare for the next race! the bikes get a lot of attention which I never saw racing TZ250's and GSXR600's. I race heads up with a lot of supersport prepped SV650's and I have ridden some race prepped SV's so I think i can comment on the differences. My Buells have more motor and a friendlier powerband. My X1 with a lightened crank will easily out accelerate an SV. My S1 with a stock crank is about the same. SV's have an advantage braking into corners....they seem to be able to really stuff it in there....probably due to their lighter weight. At most tracks, its a pretty even wash. I think a fully race prepped 'superstock' XB9R would put it to an SV however, as a lot of the SV's advantages disappear when comparing it to the new XB9 chassis. Now if I could find a sponsor to give me one for the season!!! (Dave???). In the end, I love racing bikes, no matter what they are. I currently race Vintage 1967 Honda CR450 Grand prix bike, a CB350, the Buells and supermotard a YZ426F and KTM520MXC in the superbikers2 national supermotard series. I get a lot of enjoyment out them all. Theres additional enjoyment with the Buell as there are nearly fanatical groups like this one with lots of supporters. Everyone I have ever met through the Badweather Forum has turned out to be a super person, many of which i can count as close friends. You can call the factory and they all speak 'mericun (with a slight Wisconsin accent), and the CTO is an ex AMA pro road racer...Whats not to like! Hopefully we will see you out on the track somewhere this year. Both Buells are whiteplate #100 and painted in H-D 100th anniversery silver and black. We will be doing all the AHRMA midwest races and as many CCS races as possibly that don't conflict with supermotard. I'm also instructing at the sportbike track time BRAG gingerman event and their Road america event. Come on over if you can make it! I look forward to seeing you! And just to prove there is photographic evidence, there are some pictures of me at Putnam last weekend breaking in the S1 at sliderphoto.com. click on the April 12-13 sportbike track time @ Putnam link. I'm bike #4 | ||
| Court |
The yellow helmet comment makes me laugh. When my youngest was learning to ride (HD Z50 @ age 7) I bought him a Bell Moto 4 in Signal Yellow. He whined, griped and bitched about not having the cool graphics like everyone else on our little homemade track. There he was, at all of about 15mph, looking back over his shoulder to make sure the likes of Erik Buell (who hurt his ankle at his dirtbike debut), Mike Patterson, Jason Pridmore & Mike Hale, didn't run into him. I had to explain that, thanks in part to the yellow helmet, I was fiarly certain Hale and Pridmore could navigate around him. Then next day Jason broke his ankle on a frickin' bicycle. To this day, I have a lust for yellow helmets. I've about 28 Arai's sitting here in boxes and they have NEVER sent me a yellow. Last month I scored a white and may have to shell out and BUY a yellow. No better color for learning and it seems I always am. Court | ||
| Daves |
RacerX1, Whatcha doing next weekend? You should load up your bikes including the motards and come over to Waterloo for the BattleTrax. Ride to the edge! Dave HD/Buell Cycle Center Buell sales Mgr Battlemaster wannabe racer go fast gear sales HD sales Buell junkie BRAG club director Still pretty fast for a 40 year old no wonder I'm so busy 1-800-342-7539 ext 14 dave@iowaharley.com rdcapt@hotmail.com www.iowaharley.com | ||
| Captpete |
Hmmmm... Obviously intelligent, witty, articulate, and a skilled rider as well. Also obvious: Classic Inferiority Complex I should know! | ||
| Blake |
Dave... Hallet, OK... May 23-25... you can do it... kick my ass in a race... or... is you skeered? C'mon man! I've never been to Hallet myself. I hear it's a great track though, lots of elevation change and a wide, car worthy surface. I'll be camping out to save $$. Your entire school and racing costs should be less than $300. And heck, if you never come back, you won't have to corner work either. Dyna, I bought that helmet in lieu of my flat black one when I bought the bike in Queens, NY and was riding in NE NJ. I originally wanted the orange, but they were out of it. Yellow is the next best safety color. Now I kinda like it. It goes well with my yellow amateur plates and my blue and white leathers and the black bike. It's ALL about color coordination right.  You can come down for a track day and enjoy seeing my yellow helmet fade in the distance. LOL. Okay, that was a negative comment, you owe me a positive one now. | ||
| Troythetroll |
Captain Peter, are you referring to me? I don't think I have a clue as to what you mean by "Classic Inferiority Complex", I have been hitting trackdays pretty hard since 99, and in that time period have run into a single Buell. One. Unlike Buell-bashers who simply bash and run, I have at least a middling interest, or have since the Firebolt came out. I have insisted to people that if Erik had dropped a real engine into it, I would be more than interested, even with its current weight and price issues. However, I also have a raging fear of domestics in general. 15 years of import cars, and finally, when the opportunity presented itself I snagged myself 2 new Fords in 2001 on the grounds that the domestics were getting better and I was willing to risk some of my own dollars to check this particular theory. Mistake. Huge mistake, from a reliability standpoint. Until the Fords convinced me that domestics were still borderline quality wise ( at best ), I would have used the same theory to purchase a Firebolt and see what happened. I won't throw money away like that now if and until some quality improvements come about, or Buell fans themselves aren't talking about taking their Buells to the track and having engine issues. | ||
| Court |
>>>Now if I could find a sponsor to give me one for the season!!! Doable....e-mail me. Happy Easter to everyone.... Court | ||
| Road_Thing |
Court: You want a yellow helmet? Send me one of your surplus ones in a color you don't like!   You DO like flames and scallops, right?? r-t | ||
| Jimidan |
I have seen Buells at track days in Indiana...mine and a few others. I think Buells just cost too much to be an average Joe's track day bike. I seldom take mine for just that reason. I have $7500 in my 88" engine and I don't want to miss a shift and blow that either. I can buy another Honda VTR for less money than I have in one of my Buell's engines. I have missed shifts on the Honda and never had to worry about blowing it up...at least not yet. Buells weren't really designed to be racebikes anyway. They are damned fine hooligan bikes though...on the street. The Buell engine is a lump with that big flywheel spinning up and the gyro effect making sudden changes in direction more interesting. They are low revving and don't produce much HP unless really modified. I think in the right hands, Buells that are race prepped could mop up just about any of the bikes/riders I have seen at track days. | ||
| Racerx1 |
Dave, I would love to attend your battletrax! Unfortuneately thats the first weekend of our regional supermotard series here up at Road America, so I won't be able to make it. Plus i separated my shoulder exactly 1 year ago that weekend at the UKE's battletrax, so I'm a little leary of battletraxing right before the start of the season.... I'll get over there this summer for a track day or something for sure. Hopefully you will make it to some of the UKE's festivities this year???? Court, You have mail!!!!! Happy Easter everyone! Wes |
