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     M2me |
Thank you, Reepicheep/Bill! Great post! Now about what I am finding hard to believe. I agree that there would be temperature differences at different points on the cylinder. What I find hard to believe is that there would be differences of over 200% from front to back at the midpoint of the cylinder. Notice I said 200 percent not degrees. I am not arguing about the exact temperatures but about the really large percentage differences. I don't understand why the front of the front cylinder would be over twice as hot as the rear of the same cylinder. PS for Reepicheep: You have to look at the new diagram that Hans posted. Notsip seems to agree that that one is accurate. Now the coolest part is in the V, on the intake side. It's opposite of the one Blake posted earlier, even though Blake used the thrust/non-thrust data from Notsip I thought accurately. I looked up the term "thrust side" on Google, I did not know what it meant earlier. Anyway, we have thrown that out and are now using the terms minor/major side. Sorry, I don't know what minor/major means. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimidan |
Blake, Well I don't know anything about Notsip advertising without being a sponsor...is that what all of this is really about? That would make this make a little more sense. About that same time I posted about the squirters he was installing in my engines and gave him a plug about this on this site, but I didn't see any attempt at his advertising. We had some unemotional discussion about them. I have read the two background discussions you referenced and it seems that although there was a disagreement regarding the technical aspects of aluminum nic-sil cylinders vs. cast iron vs. sleeved aluminum, that you two were going to share info and Notsip was going to do some more testing. Then all of the sudden, things got all sticky and personal. I think there was a big misunderstanding somewhere. As far as Notsip being wrong 50% of the time regarding this discussion, I have heard Axtell's Ron Dickey say that their research indicated a lot of the same things Notsip said about the growth rates of cylinders and the problems associated therein. Like Aaron said, you can ask 5 expert engine builders the same question and get 6 answers. Axtell was looking at developing its own line of Nic-sil cylinders, but they proved too unreliable. I also recall MT's Chris telling me that the MoCo was looking at making their Nic-sil cylinders standard equipment on all HD engines...but HD didn't do it. I wonder why? On an anecdotal level, I have experienced two failures with these "superior" Nic-sil cylinders supposedly caused by the Hurricane pistons (set up at .025) scuffing, according to what the experts at Total Seal said afer seeing them. Frankly, I wouldn't install Nic-sil cylinders on my engines again if they were free, although I understand that the reliablity problems have been addressed (wrong rings given with the kit). I know Nallin Racing would not be selling them if they weren't OK. It is just a personal confidence thing. I have seen Don Tilley pull these failed cylinders that looked just like mine off of his Pro Thunder Bike in the pits several times. I leaned over to him once and asked him if that happened often, to which he said with a twinkle, "I got a truckload of 'em!". Henry Duga told me that he wouldn't put them on a street bike because they were not reliable enough. This is real world experience IMHO. That is why I am using Axtell cylinders in my two 88" engines and I am also having Notsip install his squirters in both of them to add to the reliability. Notsip didn't only do the research to determine where the hot spots occurred, he designed a solution (squirters) that reduces the rear cylinder temps 200 degrees (measured). | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Reepicheep, There are two thrust sides on each piston skirt/cylinder wall. One side is major thrust and the other side is minor thrust. Looking at your engine from the cam side the Major Thrust side will be on the left side (rear) of each cylinder. The Minor Thrust side is on the right side (front) of each cylinder. As for the temperatures, check out Hans diagram, he has the numbers in the correct places. M2me, In testing we have found that there are several things that cause extreme heat in those areas. Valve size, ex. port flow, valve seat width, valve material, cam timing, compression, lack of lubrication in the proper areas, dwell time of lubrication in proper areas and exhaust pipes. Like I stated before, there are many contributing factors that creates this increased heat in the cylinders. The intake side of the cylinders take care of themselves because of the cool intake charge that is being sucked in on the intake cycle. We were astounded when we seen these temperatures and retested several times to ensure the accuracy of the tests. We knew that the temperatures were high because of the engines that we have seen with scuffed pistons on the rear cylinder. We also knew that piston scuffing occurs at about 460-470 deg. So the tests performed substanciated our suspicions. After reviewing this data we realized that we needed to look at numerous other things before a complete resolution could be found. Although we have found that cooling the piston and cylinder wall with oil has reduced these temperatures drastically and is the only thing that does reduce the engine operating temperature as of date. We are continually working in this area. Wish we could find an easier answer or fix but haven't so far. Remember, there are only two things that cool an engine. Air and Oil, you deprive the engine of these and it is going to run hot, extremely hot! When the engine runs this hot for an extended period of time it will eventually hurt itself. Hope this helps. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M2me |
Notsip, Thanks for the reply. Yes, it does help somewhat. Doesn't Harley use some kind of squirter technology in the newer Twin Cam engines? It is interesting that you said, "We were astounded". As you can see from my earlier posts, I would be astounded too at those results. I am not a mechanic or an expert in any way with regards to this stuff. Hell, fixing a simple rockerbox leak is a challenge for me.  Don't worry, I'll get it done! I have only been posting in regards to my "theory". I have never actually measured any temperatures on my bike's engine. I'm an inquisitive person and just enjoy a technical discussion. I don't take any of it personally and am always aware of my technical shortcomings. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
M2me, Be careful, temperature measurement in Fahrenheit or Celcius/Centigrade is not an absolute scale. In other words, what appears to be a doubling of temperature from 180oF to 360oF would in centigrade amount to a 222% increase from 82oC to 182oC. If you wish to talk in absolutes and percentages WRT temperature, you would need to convert to one of the absolute temperature scales, Rankine or Kelvin, where zero really means zero (no lower temperature possible). I agree though, I don't see an aluminum cylinder supporting the kinds of temperature gradients that Notsip's data indicate. I could be wrong. Jimidan, Your statements beg one very simple question... If cast iron cylinders are so great and the nicasils are so inferior, why don't Tilley's, Hal's, Kosko, Latus, or ANY other serious Buell roadracing teams use cast iron cylinders? There is another equally intriguing question with a similar slant... Why do some of the most powerful and most reliable stock motorcycles ever built use nicasil lined aluminum cylinders? And of course the corollary to that one... Why don't ANY modern motorcycles utilize cast iron cylinders? I will say that the "oil squirters" sound like a great idea, after all Buell has incorporated piston oiling jets into their new engines. I asked Dan the last two questions. Never got an answer. Admittedly they were not numbered. Putting a bike on an engine dyno and pointing a fan at it wouldn't cut it as anything remotely resembling a "real world" simulation in my book, not by ANY stretch of the imagination. If you really want real world data, Bill's suggestion is the simplest and most logical... mount some thermocouples or themistors on the engine, put a laptop in the tail bag and go for a ride and acquire some real world data, for real. Notsip left one VERY important factor out of his theory of what helps to cool an engine... cylinder material. Aluminum conducts heat more than twice as efficiently as cast iron. It is why we don't see automobile radiators made from iron or steel. They are aluminum. That is some very conclusive real world data for you to consider. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Oh, and Jimidan, I'll be confirming your contention about Tilley's experience with the nicasil cylinders. I hope your information turns out to be more reliable/accurate than what Notsip tried to sell us, that Tilley's had broken a bunch of chrome lined aluminum front cylinders. Not only had Tilley's never broken a single front cylinder, they had not used chrome lined cylinders either. At one time the old AAC nicasil cylinders did have some quality problems. I don't know when you spoke to Henry Duga, but if it was during or shortly after that poor-quality episode at AAC, well, he may have changed his opinion since then. Personally, I become suspicious about the intentions of anyone who is trying to promote one product by badmouthing another. I know Ron Dickey would never advocate such a tactic. The cast iron cylinders are darn fine products. My opinion is that they have no place on a road racing motorcycle. On a road bike okay if that is what you prefer. On a drag bike, hell yes. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
Notsip... that makes a huge difference, I originally understood the temperatures to be in different positions. I really appreciate the clarifications. Those temperatures are distributed exactly as I would expect, and as I think common sense would dictate. The range of temperatures are extreme however, and are very interesting, which I imagine is the original point you were making. Thanks for sticking it out long enough to make it. NOW this is getting interesting... So just to summarize... 1) The exhaust side of the engine is always hotter then the intake side. 2) The back cylinder is always hotter then the front. 3) On a running engine with cast iron cylinders on a dyno with reasonable airflow, the temperature gradient (front to back) across the front cylinder can be as high as 180 degrees (measured). 4) On that same setup, the temperature gradient (front to back) across the rear cylinder can be as high as 243 degrees (measured). 5) On that same setup, the rear exhaust port area of the cylinder measured 445 degrees (rear surface of jug mid height). The front exhaust port measured 380 degrees (same location) OK! Now we are getting somewhere. Can we get some measurements from aluminum cylinders? I am *REALLY* thinking I need to hack apart a Palm Pilot (now available for under $50 used) and turn it into a mobile poor mans data acquisition station. With a discreet channel (senses on or off), it could be hooked to the speedo sensor and work as a poor man's dyno, and actually do a pretty good job. With the excellent research here into aftermarket 02 sensors, it could be an air fuel guage as well (sorry, forgot who posted it, its in the archives). With a few analog channels, or a multiplexer chip, it could do temperature profiling. I know there are several unused inputs on the dragonball CPU in there, I think they might even include an analog to digital converter. Don't know how easy they would be to connect with, either physically or by software... Hmmmmm... Bill | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| M2me |
I'm learning all the time! I wasn't aware that Farenheit and Celcius were not absolute scales. Blake also makes a very important point: Putting a bike on an engine dyno and pointing a fan at it wouldn't cut it as anything remotely resembling a "real world" simulation in my book, not by ANY stretch of the imagination. Yep, that's true. I remember when I was into bicycling (according to my increasing girth I should get back into it, but that's another discussion) the most effective way to train was to actually ride on the street. Stationary bikes, rollers, whatever, does not cut it! On the road you have wind resistance, uphills, downhills, varying traffic conditions, etc. Especially with motorcycles you've got the whole wind resistance thing. That's huge and can not be accurately simulated on a dyno. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Pammy |
"On the road you have wind resistance, uphills, downhills, varying traffic conditions, etc. Especially with motorcycles you've got the whole wind resistance thing. That's huge and can not be accurately simulated on a dyno." Exactly! As many variables possible, that cannot possibly be controlled, we try to eliminate. Although I HAVE had employees(and customers) that I would like to send out in traffic.... We can simulate loads and freewheeling, as can Hot Shots, I'm sure. Reep, when you complete one of those data aquisition devices(DAD), PLEASE LET ME KNOW! There is a great need for an affordable device like that. It needs to record fuel flow, oil temp, surface air temp,barometric pressure, humidity,intake air temp, exhaust gas temp, exhaust gas(air/fuel), voltage, various engine temps, manifold pressure...and probably a few others. Seriously, if you get it done I'd be interested. Blake, I think most of the super bikes you mentioned have a WAY shorter piston travel, so again we are comparing apples to japanese oranges. ;0} We use both. It depends on what the situation warrants. There is no absolute in my(or Wes') book(in this genre) when there is, we will retire. I return you to your regularly scheduled scrap... Hey, did anyone ever figure out the engineering anomoly that is the common bumblebee? Now there's a mystery.... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Reepicheep, The temperatures on aluminum cylinders was approx. the same measured deep into the cylinder fin up against the cylinder. Although, as the temp. sensor were moved outward to the tip of the fins the tempsrature reduced more than the cast cylinder. M2me, Testing: We tried to duplicate these test as close to exact conditions as possible. Our dyno allows us to program in acceleration, deceleration, increase torque, decrease torque, percentage of grade increase, percentage of grade decrease, variable wind conditions according to speed, throttle positioning and amounts of time as to which engine runs at each sequence. The only drawback to our testing is that we only tested the engine and not the complete motorcycle. By not testing the whole motorcycle we did not have all of the deflections of motorcycle components blocking air travel. If we were to test the complete unit we would see greatly higher temperature than what we seen because of all of the air blockage created by the motorcycle and the rider. Wonder how much more temperature would be seen at the engine. If you thought that our temperature reading were high in the way we tested, just think about how much higher they would be as a unit. Unbarable, as the right leg knows. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Reepicheep, If you ever get your invention to retreive the information that you want, let me know. If you can put it on a CD I have the capabilities to download it into my dyno computer and can repeat your test on an engine on our dyno and then we can compare data. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimidan |
NOTE DISCLAIMER: Hey, I want everybody on here to know I am NOT claiming to be an "expert", and I don't want to be "treated like one"...OK? I just find interesting discourse about my favorite topics fun and an enjoyable past time as I sit here in retirement. Plus, I am bald which makes me no threat to any of you viril young males with long locks. Blake asked: "Jimidan, Your statements beg one very simple question... If cast iron cylinders are so great and the nicasils are so inferior, why don't Tilley's, Hal's, Kosko, Latus, or ANY other serious Buell roadracing teams use cast iron cylinders?" ANSWER: I didn't say they were inferior in all applications, but I think the simple answer is that these are race bikes where the extra weight (11 lbs. over the AL) is a key factor, plus they are tearing these engines completely down after 3 race dates (or sooner w/problems) in many cases. Shucks, Tilley used to change the pistons and cylinders between every race when Higbee was riding in Pro Thunder...I watched him do it. They set these cylinder/pistons up really loose too, much more so than a street bike. I think that they have figured out how to use these cylinders in the recent past based on the reliablity of the engines in races today. MT may be making these cylinders differently now too, and I am sure they are using different rings now than they used to issue with the kits. I can say I resented them selling a product that was not ready to be marketed yet and letting the public test them out with dire consequences in some cases. As you know, street bikes need much more durability, as who wants to drop an engine for overhaul every time they change their oil. I think the failures of Nic-Sil in HD engines, and clones, is a unique problem that other engine designs do not have. I wanted them to work in my engines...I really did. There is also an issue that nobody has mentioned here (I think), that being the tensil strenth of iron over AL. I don't have figures in front of me, but I would bet that the AL has a lot less strength than 44,000 lbs/in. This is a big advantage in keeping the cylinders from disorting when the engine is used a stressed member of the frame, especially big inch engines. Ron Dickey told me that the advantage of iron in this application is that it is so stable...the disadvatage is that it is so stable. Extra care must be exercised when fitting forged pistons into these cylinders because of the difference in rates of growth. Anything you can do to reduce excess hot spots is a big plus, which is why Notsip designed these squirters... ON SALE RIGHT NOW FOR ONLY $39.95 (slight joke!). Let me add that my experince with Nic-sil cylinders was several years ago when AAC made them and they were marketed by MT. Although, the second set of replacement cylinders was MT's with Wisecos pistons and they failed too in 30 minutes of on the stand 3 minute heat cyles. I talked with several race teams at the time and many told me they wouldn't use Nic-sil in a streetbike engine. Gee Blake, I sense you are now questioning my integrity too now...not that I mind. Sorry if I have offended you, but I call them like I see them...nothing personal. Verify the verification...ask Don Tilley himself, although I don't know if he would admit it since MT is a major sponsor of his race team. I probably caught him with his guard down, as the bike just broke during the previous race due to cylinder failure and he was PISSED. I know that this is just the opposite of what he says in the MT ads that were in B2W. I would say ask Shawn Higbee, but MT is sponsoring his Gixxer racebike too. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Cripes, I'm amazed there is a debate about Nikasil. The big BMW boxer engines have been using Nikasil for 20 years or more now. Moto Guzzi (not exactly space shuttle technology eh?) are not too far behind that figure. Regards Steve www.ukbeg.com steve_s@ukbeg.com | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Peter |
I replaced a main bearing in my BMW (needed doing due to an imbalanced clutch pack) and measured my ring gaps at the time (Nikasil bores). The engine had nearly 70,000miles on it. ALL compression ring gaps were still within NEW tolerances, and the oil ring gaps were only around a third worn. PPiA | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sarodude |
The comments about not using Nikasil in a street engine really kinda boggle my brain. For many many moons, Porsche built powerful (in their era) reliable air cooled motors with Nikasil jugs. It's granted that they had a real cooling system instead of just hanging the jugs in the breeze but I think the bigger picture is somehow being missed here. If someone says they had reliability problems with a jug, then it would be to all our benefits to look into exactly why life didn't go as advertised for them. One quick thing to consider - Nikasil is a trade name. There are other people plating with similar Nickel Silicon Carbon (is that it?) platings though the process and material may not be identical and the resultant product may have different properties and possibly inferior durability. Who knows... So, some obvious differences between the air cooled Porsche boxers and our Buells WRT jugz... * Buells have stressed cylinders * Buells lack the deliberation of the Porsche cooling system ? Do the avaible products use actual Nikasil or a knockoff material / process? Being nothing more than a garage engineering wannabe, I have a bunch of questions on how these jugs are made... The first one - are the things held in torque plates when the plating is applied? Are the people with problems deviating from the recommended torque values / procedures? Let's not blindly knock a type of product. Anecdotal evidence leads to some frieghteningly long lasting wives' tales (synthetic oil is my fave). Having personally run hard and occasionally ABUSED (uh, how about a whole 15 minute heat race with virtually no water in the cooling system) some high strung 125 2 strokes with Nikasil, I can tell you that the stuff JUST PLAIN FREAKIN' ROCKS in my experience. Yeah - we're talking about a watercooled race motor - but one that really withstood the occasional tuning malady (you think a Harley v-twin hates running lean?) or the perviously undetected blown head gasket and its resultant Steam Cooled Motor. BTW - Reep - check out DataStick for a quick solution... -Saro | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Aaron |
Jim, we ship a LOT of those cylinders, and only a portion of Millennium's total shipments pass through us, so there's a bunch of them out there. I can say with absolute certainty that your perception of this being a short-lived, race use only product is dead wrong. There are a BUNCH of very successful street motors out there racking up the miles, and in fact, people are reporting much MORE longevity than what's typical with the stock cylinders. We get a lot of positive feedback on these cylinders, believe me. I realize that the AAC product had some serious quality issues. But I've got to give Millennium credit, since taking it over they've worked hard to improve the product. It's a totally different product now than it was then. Better materials and processes. Plus, it's a whole bunch thicker and heftier than it was, it's literally a couple pounds heavier than a stock cylinder despite being all-aluminum. Mic one in and out of a torque plate sometime, it hardly moves at all. Do the same thing with a stock cylinder, it's a real eye-opener how far it moves. The Millennium is very structurally stable, maybe not as much as a cast iron cylinder, but strong nonetheless. Sorry about the problem you had with them, but people have had problems with Axtell cylinders, too, and it's another quality product. In fact, I know someone who's gone the exact opposite direction than you, he had problems using Axtell cylinders and switched to Millennium and now he's happy. My point is that it's dangerous to draw hard conclusions from an isolated experience. Ron can point to hundreds of successful projects with his product despite that guy's difficulties, and Millennium can do the same despite your difficulties. It's not a valid basis for concluding that a product is only suitable for race use. Nor is frequent changing of parts by a race team good evidence of poor longevity; race motors get new parts all the time, often whether they need it or not, and particularly at the level Tilley is at. Did you talk with Millennium about the problem? My guess is they'd take care of you, just as Ron bends over backwards to take care of his customers. If you bought them from us, contact me, I'll take care of you. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Thank you Aaron, very well said. Now to backtrack to some of the other issues raised above... M2me, The biggest discrepancy that I would be concerned about would be the lack of aerodynamic similitude between a bare engine with a fan blowing on it versus an entire motorcycle with rider traveling over road and through the air. Notsip has made a HUGE assumption with respect to the effects of the motorcycle and rider. He may be correct. However, my "real world" experience has taught me that often, such assumptions turn out to be in error and that they are always improper, indeed irresponsible, if held up as being representative of actual "real world" conditions. Pammy, Is shorter piston travel offsetting of double the rpm, double the HP/CI, and 20% more compression ratio? Sure, the applications are a different. But I think the technology is well proven. That was my point. Obviously you agree and we are in concordance after all.  Notsip, The temperatures on aluminum cylinders was approx. the same measured deep into the cylinder fin up against the cylinder. Although, as the temp. sensor were moved outward to the tip of the fins the temperature reduced more than the cast cylinder. If the cylinders were coated with different systems, all bets are off and any comparison between the surface temperatures between the two would only hold meaning with respect to the same exact cylinders with the same exact coating system(s). The coating(s) could end up governing the efficiency of the fin to air heat exchange and thus the surface temperatures measured. For uncoated cylinders with comparable geometry and ambient conditions, the results that you report would be impossible. Assuming similar fin and cylinder geometry, if the temperatures at the root of the fins were comparable between the iron and aluminum cylinders as you claim, the aluminum fins would conduct heat FAR more efficiently to their tips than would iron fins and so would be hotter, not cooler. Just like the voltage drop experienced by current flow in an efficient electrical conductor is far less compared to that within an inferior conductor carrying the same current (amperage). Just like the pressure drop in a large water pipe is less than that in a smaller more restrictive pipe that is supporting the same flow rate. The three scenarios are 100% technically analogous. I assume based upon Notsips test results, that the aluminum cylinders were coated and that coating was significantly more insulative, whether due to thickness or composition or both, than any coating present on the iron cylinders. The other possibility is that the results were obtained from two completely different engines, which of course would render said comparison of results totally meaningless. Thanks for answering the questions. Like Aaron says, we are all here to learn and pass the time discussing things we enjoy and find interesting. Unless you know everything, you might actually learn a thing or two here. I know I have. Jimidan, Unfortunately when someone is willing to throw out such strong and potentially damaging assertions, I am obliged to confirm their validity. I would do so no matter who made the assertions. So no, I do not have any particular doubts about your integrity. I'm assuming you are 100% honest in your statement. I just need to be fair and verify it. I can assure you that my source will provide an accurate and honest answer. So your integrity is well in hand. You may not have said specifically that the nicasil cylinders are inferior, but you sure implied it. I agree with Saro, in that even your unfortunate experiences warrant more careful assessment before placing blame on the cylinders. Brian Nallin once told me that they ran over 3,000 miles worth of drag racing and dyno pulls on a set of nicasil cylinders before pulling the heads to check things out. He found that everything was in beautiful shape and simply buttoned the engine back up and returned it to service. See how anecdotal evidence works?  If you think street bikes need more durability than a road racing bike, you would be mistaken. A single race weekend can subject a bike to hundreds of miles of flat out balls to the wall abuse at triple digit speeds constantly tickling even bumping into the rev limiter. Add a fairing into the mix to enclose all the heat, drop the oil viscosity from 50 to 30 weight, get in the draft denying your engine any significant airflow, the track is hot, the air is hot... you think that requires less durability than the average ride through the country for the life of a typical street bike? I don't think that is a conclusion that is easily made. In fact I strongly disagree. The tensile strength of aluminum cylinders? Unless the stresses within the cylinders exceed the yield strength (tensile, compressive, shear, whatever...) of the material, the strength is not a factor. If the stresses exceed the material's yield strength, your engine is gone and something has likely blown out the bottom of the cases. Plus, you might be surprised to learn that MANY aluminum alloys are significantly stronger than cast iron. The big advantage that cast iron has over any aluminum alloy is its superior stiffness. Iron and steel are over twice as stiff/rigid as aluminum alloys. That is probably the issue to which you meant to call attention. So extra weight is a bad thing on a race bike. I agree. How about a sport bike?  No you have not offended me. Just vigorous and energetic debate. Like Saro (or was it Reepicheep?) explained. It's all good. Steve, Hey coalition partner. The massing of engineers (all with significant "real world experience" in this topic shall lead to knowledge and truth for all. LOL! Thanks for joining the fray. All, This really is fun stuff. Try not to take it too seriously. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
All cylinders tested were as purchased, no changes in coatings. What we used is the same thing everyone else uses. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Sarodude |
Notsip- What were the coatings? Were both sets of cylinders bare as cast metal? Black Powdercoated? Chromed? Blake- There are some coatings that help reject heat. Is it possible that the aluminum jugs being tested had such a coating? Is the following possible? Temps near the fin roots being similar to the Iron temps and the fins being cooler MIGHT make sense since a the coating would be promoting the heat exchange... -Saro | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Black Powder Coat. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Same engine, same time of year and same conditions. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimidan |
Blake said: "Personally, I become suspicious about the intentions of anyone who is trying to promote one product by badmouthing another. I know Ron Dickey would never advocate such a tactic." Whoa, I am not promoting anybody's product over another by badmouthing it...I was just telling my "...anecdotal level" experiences with nic-sil cylinders. What is this site for if not to relate anecdotal evidence of products we have tried, as long as it has been clearly stated as such? Not everybody has the abilities and the means to scientifically test these products other than to just use them and see what happens. This stuff is just one man's opinion of a product he tried...I am not an expert! Anyway, I don't really have a dog in this fight because I am not profiting from the sale of either kind, as I am not affiliated with any company. Notsip has built me a couple of 88" engines, for which I paid him large sums of money. For the record, I have never heard Ron Dickey badmouth anybody elses product, but as I recall from a conversation we had at that time, Axtell had looked into the possibility of building this type of cylinder and decided not to because of the problems. I was also careful to couch my comments with "Let me add that my experince with Nic-sil cylinders was several years ago when AAC made them and they were marketed by MT. Although, the second set of replacement cylinders was MT's with Wisecos pistons and they failed too in 30 minutes of on the stand 3 minute heat cycles. I talked with several race teams at the time and many told me they wouldn't use Nic-sil in a streetbike engine." Aaron said: "I can say with absolute certainty that your perception of this being a short-lived, race use only product is dead wrong. There are a BUNCH of very successful street motors out there racking up the miles, and in fact, people are reporting much MORE longevity than what's typical with the stock cylinders. We get a lot of positive feedback on these cylinders, believe me." Aaron, I DO believe you! In fact I said in my comments that "I know Nallin Racing would not be selling them if they weren't OK. It is just a personal confidence thing." It is my opinion after being burned for a lot of money on a product that shouldn't have been on the market YET (at that time). Shucks, I can remember emailing you about my problems back then and you told me that you were aware of failures also. I have been hanging in the pits of road race teams for several years, and those I talked to AT THAT TIME recommended that I not use these cylinders on a street bike...and I didn't again. I didn't get into this thread because I wanted to trash MT or their products, and certainly not to hurt Aaron's business, but because I thought Blake and others were trashing a guy I respect and who has done a whale of a job building my engines. I know I can trust the Axtell cylinders on them, and that means a lot, doesn't it...and I don't mind telling folks that either. If that is promoting a product, so be it. So, some of you may ask what was the resolution of my experiences with the nic-sil cylinders? There was shrapnel throughout the engine, requiring it to be rebuilt...new crank bearings, cam bushings, etc. MT would not commit to what had caused the failures after they looked at all the parts, but gave me $1000 back. Total Seal said they would give me a set of rings if I wanted and Brian Nallin was very helpful as he took my heads back and cleaned and thoroughly checked them out...no charge! He also offered to sell me a set of his pistons at cost. That is the kind of stand-up guy he is. I think Aaron, Notsip and Ron Dickey are of that same stock. Blake said: "Unfortunately when someone is willing to throw out such strong and potentially damaging assertions, I am obliged to confirm their validity." I am certainly flattered that my opinion caries so much weight. I am not sure how damaging recalling my past personal experiences really is to the well being of a company that still sells a lot of cylinder kits. I have nothing to gain from embellishing or lying though. Blake also said: "You may not have said specifically that the nicasil cylinders are inferior, but you sure implied it. I agree with Saro, in that even your unfortunate experiences warrant more careful assessment before placing blame on the cylinders." You are right, I didn't say it. I was just recalling things that folks much more knowledgable than I had told me. I am sure that the cylinders failed, that was obvious. It was admitted by MT and backed up by a HD mechanic who assured me that the failure was not "wrench related". Total Seal told me after being examined by their staff, that the pistons had scuffed the cylinder, although the oil ring had obviously been a major factor. MT stepped up to the plate with no argument and supplied me with a new set, but made me pay for the Wiseco pistons. As I have recounted, these failed also. Faulty coating is the only conclusion that we collectively could come to. I am glad that MT sells a better product now, as I wouldn't want anyone to go through what I did again. And added: "If you think street bikes need more durability than a road racing bike, you would be mistaken. A single race weekend can subject a bike to hundreds of miles of flat out balls to the wall abuse at triple digit speeds constantly tickling even bumping into the rev limiter." I agree that racing subjects an engine to some wicked stresses, but a street Buell is expected to run 50,000 miles before overhaul. My streetbikes generally get a little rougher treatment than the average Buell...like track days and aggressive riding. My rides in the country are sometimes about as spirited. and: "Brian Nallin once told me that they ran over 3,000 miles worth of drag racing and dyno pulls on a set of nicasil cylinders before pulling the heads to check things out. He found that everything was in beautiful shape and simply buttoned the engine back up and returned it to service. See how anecdotal evidence works?" He told me the same story...one of the reasons I went with those cylinders to begin with. I thought I did my homework before buying them and went with the recommendations of knowledgable folks. All: Hey, I am still having fun! This is interesting stuff! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Hans |
Interesting to see how the new Norton 952 design gives proof of the knowledge that the inlet sides are so much cooler than the outlet sides. The inlet sides are even part of one piece in the head, and the outlet sides are pointing forward and outward.  Hans | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Steveshakeshaft |
Hey coalition partner. LOL!!!! Steve http://www.ukbeg.com steve_s@ukbeg.com | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blake |
Notsip, Someone in the performance Buell engine business has corroberated your temperature data. Their exact words were "We run a _____ data acquisition system... those temps on Han's diagram are pretty close, of course only on 'load' mode." By "load mode" I think the source means WOT in the power band. This is on a racing bike. I took a little 30 mile ride this afternoon and stuffed my IR thermometer into my pocket. I ran her hard up through the gears, cruised a while at 80 mph, took a few quick dashes to 100, then did some repeated 60 to 100 WOT runs. Pulled over to side of road, shut down bike, and within 10 seconds measured all the same approximate points as Notsip. My unpainted MT cylinders max temperature never rose above 300oF in any spot. The black powder coated cylinder heads got to 340oF and 350oF for front and rear, respectively measured next to the spark plugs. The jet hot coated race headers were close to 450oF at the cylinder head. The rear cylinder was always hotter. The V temperatures were equal to or higher than those at the front of the lead cylinder. The temperatures from root to fin tip vaired by as much as 30oF with the tips being less hot. The following are root temperatures. Ambient air temperature was 72oF.
A lot less dramatic than the results Notsip obtained. I'll be interested to check the temperatures again after ten laps around the track. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Captpete |
Reep, Saro, or any other of you geek-types out there: this is a little off the subject, but I could use some help in an area in which I’ve just about thrown in the towel. It pertains to the little fishing boat I’m putting together for use out in the NW Pacific. I’ll be running a couple of PC’s on board. One will be dedicated to running some seabed classification software that captures the raw data from the vessel’s sonar equipment and builds a hydrographic database, while at the same time capturing over 400 variables for each record in the database. That one’s pretty straightforward. All I have to do there is come up with the $16k for the software. The other will perform multiple tasks, including running some plotting/navigation/fishing database software, interface w/ SSB radio to capture weatherfax data, provide CD-DVD entertainment (up to 300-mile trek to fishing grounds), etc. I would also like to get this second one to function as a barograph, or recording barometer. This would require some sort of sensor to capture barometric pressure and the software/interface to be able to build the database required, and then display it as a graph. I’ve been unsuccessful in finding any way to do this. I can’t believe it’s not available, as a large percentage of the fishing fleet on this coast is already running PC-based plotting/navigation software, which has pretty much made stand-alone marine plotters obsolete. Even the top-of-the-line sonar/fish-finders are now running under Win NT OS, the most sophisticated versions using multiple processors networked via Ethernet. (Gotta kill a few fish before I can afford to go there.) Anybody got any ideas? Capt. Pete | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Tbolt834 |
Captpete, Since both NOAA and the NWS are government agencies, I would think they would help you with the barometric sensor. The trick would be to interface it to your pc's serial port. Temperature control systems for buildings use Win NT and the serial port to gather building information from DDC panels throughout the building over a single twisted pair of wires (using RS-422, broadband, TCP/IP, and fiber). Wood's Hole Oceanographic Institute (while non-government) may also share information on what they use. Just a couple thoughts. Dave | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Notsip |
Blake, Yes our figures were achieved under 'load mode' as this is the point of the most heat generated and this happens under extreme acceleration which everyone does. So these are the temperatures we need to work from. I appreciate you taking the time to check the validity of our figures and am glad to see that other engine builders are seeing the approx. same temperatures. Not to discredit your testing on your motorcycle, but we also have tried using the IR system and found that it wasn't very accurate. Example: When testing an engine with one plain Aluminum head and one B/W head on the same engine. We found a large difference in temperatures. The B/W head always read a lot hotter than the plain Aluminum head ( was told that the shinier the material the more reflectant it is to testing ???). Example: Also we use a dual oil filter system to double filter the oil and when we have used a chrome filter on one and a black filter on the other we have seen an incredible difference between the two. Operating oil temp measured with temp probes (2 different probes same location) at an oil temp of 175 deg. we have realized a reading of 165-175 deg. on the black filter and 110-120 deg. on the chrome filter when tested with IR. Also we have found that it is very hard if not impossible to get an accurate reading between the fins with a IR as it wants to pick up radial heat instead of direct heat. This is why we placed special probes deep into the fins against the core of the cylinder. I wish it was as easy and cheap as just pointing and retreiving temperatures. We use up to 16 different temp probes while testing and engine at a cost of $300.00 ea. That is why I said this testing wasn't cheap. But it gives very accurate data. As far as your ex. pipe temps. after running an engine (Steady State Test)on our dyno at 3,000 rpm, w/22 ft. lbs. torque for a period of 20 min. and obtaining a average operating egt. of 1125-1130 deg. then shutting down the engine, the egt. measured (within 10-15 seconds afterward)the egt. read 950-960 deg. and then we tested the pipe with IR and it read 450-460 deg. on the outside. These are similar to the reading that you have achieved in your test. There are always going to be differences in temp measurements depending on where and how they were measured. I appreciate you taking the time to do this test and maybe somehow we can come to a acceptable/not acceptable temperature reading that can be used with a IR system. This is your expertise, so I will let you work on a solution. Now we know that there is extreme heat in these engines. A/K/A Effect. What do you think the CAUSE is? Let's get a little CAUSE and EFFECT exercise going here. Any willing participants? Let the exercises begin! Cheers! | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Reepicheep |
Cap.... we should probably start a quick board forum for this, or just email me offline... what do the current baro sensors use as an interface? Seems like it ought to be easy enough, heck, I have a $75 watch that will do baro sampling and trending around here somewhere. The actual sensors, to get them accurate, take some work, but thats all been done, just go buy one. Interfacing them oughta be pretty straightforward. A sensor with a serial port would be the easiest (assuming you still have an open serial port on one of your machines, which I suspect you probably do). I would just throw together some trivial software that samples it in the background writing to a comma delimited log file, then write some quickie little excel macros or maybe a java applet that would run in a browser that will dump the data to the screen. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Jimidan |
I am glad Dan has posed the "cause and effect" question above...this thread had bottomed out, so to speak. I was beginning to wonder if the original question, "Which is hotter?" was in reference to the contributors rather than cylinders ;-)! I have an opinion on who won that one but I will not share it here. I also had a very interesting hour and a half conversation with Ron Dickey of Axtell, this morning. Talking with Ron is always an entertaining and educational affair. I feel like I just took a short course in V-twin theory, and in retrospect, I feel guilty for not taking notes to help me remember all of the valuable lessions he talked about. I am thoroughly convinced that Ron knows as much, if not more, about cylinders and combustion than anybody. He is also a student of the scientific method, an excellent judge of character...and is really funny! Let's just say that for the record, Ron clarified one aspect of my paraphrasing of his past lessions regarding why Axtell did not get into the all aluminum nic-sil cylinder market. He said that it wasn't because of unreliability of the cylinder, rather after looking at the small market, Axtell didn't beleive there was room for two players. I asked him if he thought I made the right choice of cylinders for my application, and he said yes. I told him I did too. Now, back to cause and effect... |
