| Author | Message | ||
     Sarodude |
In my less than 2 years (something a little north of 25,000 miles) of riding I've stumbled upon some interesting things - some of which can be quite disturbing. Many of these things have to do with rider skills and one of these rider skills happens to be evaluation of the corner and the subsequent line selection. I've been a student of The Line since my teens. My driving and riding style is heavily influenced by track experience - both chasing the clock and chasing competitors - the latter while trying to take away their prime real estate without giving up MY hard earned position. This has essentially led me to take The Line for granted. I hadn't realized this until the last few weeks. Then a whole bunch of stuff started to kinda fall into place. All I've had to do is learn how to manage 2 wheels - a task made significantly simpler by having a strong command of the simple yet cruicial Line. Most sport riders must learn both sets of skills - if they even recognize the distinction between vehicle control and "how to take turns". I know this is significant 'cause I watch folks on much more capable handling machines (the bulk of my current riding is on a Dyna) struggle to find their way through a turn while I've got things simply leaned over and taking a 'less is more' approach to gliding through a given complex. It looks like I'm dancing around in their mirrors - not 'cause I am all over the place but because they are! Very interesting and eye opening. I then decided to try something with Loli. She's been learning specific roads by following me through 'em. She does pretty well on familiar roads but drops down near the speed limit on unfamiliar stuff - even when the goings are quite simple and visible. (forgive me, Captain Pete) Instead of giving Loli my fish, I decided to teach her HOW to fish. In 5 or 10 minutes on a silly sheet of paper, I showed Loli some basic line selection concepts. She was convinced that looking at it on paper would be useless but she listened despite her strongest urges to ignore me. All I can say is WOW. Yesterday with the Golden State BRAG club we rode 2 roads Loli hadn't even SEEN. She kept a very respectable pace. MUCH more important was the fact that her riding appeared much more deliberate. The lesser number of mid-corner corrections showed me that her ability to evaluate The Line for herself was beginning to blossom. Fantastic! Afterwards I was asking her how it felt to see a road through her new eyes. She was indeed perceiving the road differently. Sometimes it worked - sometimes it didn't. She was focused on trying to make Her Line work. I think she's sold. What's the bottom line? I'm not trying to toot anyone's horn here. I'm a HUGE chicken and will never be fast away from the track. A decent rider on a decent bike will run away from me in 2 heartbeats. I'm just trying to illustrate the importance of a little bit of simple technique. To me, the truth about track days (admittedly while having never done one on a bike) is that a lot of learning The Line is like memorization and recitation. You either follow the Black Stuff or let a Fast Guy tow you around the track. You learn A Line possibly without learning WHY you're taking that line. If you haven't already, get some decent racing books (car, bike - linez iz linez) and be open to learning something new. You might be surprised! -Saro | ||
| Fly |
Saro, here's my take on it....... Continual learning through reading, exposure and practice will help hone and elevate riding skills. You can always ride "better" on a known route (such as familiar stretch of road or racetrack) because you have figured out the best way (line, if you will) through it. I do not think this applies to new, unknown routes. You can pick a line if the entry, apex and exit points are in view and you have all road conditions (e.g. camber, hazard, etc) figured out. Your line may not work if all of the above is not visible at the time you commit. I say other things, such as throttle control to maintain best chassis composure, play a huge role (as much as line) when trying to scoot around unfamiliar curves. | ||
| Rocketman |
Saro, I too follow the line but when in America you guys beat the $+*% outta me for crossing the double yella! Ayrton Senna's 'Principles of Race Driving' is highly regarded and worth the read. Rocket  | ||
| Davegess |
Saro, I have a concern about "the line" on the street. And you may already be doing this so this may be a pointless comment. A true racing line leaves little room for error. Get in too hot or get the turn radius wrong and you will run wide on exit. At the track this means you may need to stand it up and be carful on some marbles or even a little grass. On the street this means you are headon with the milk truck coming the other way. The other problem area is that you often find loose stuff at the apex, at least here in Wisconsin the land of snow where salt and sand are poured on the roads all winter and never really disappear. I know Rocket disagrees with this but chicken that I am I always regard the road as being about two feet narrower than the centerline unless I can see all the way around the turn. Milk truck drivers in a hurry, and they all are all the time, like to use a couple of feet on your side of the road. You don't have many choices if you and he are comitted to the same spot. I also pick an apex a foot or so off the edge of the pavement to avoid the worst of the stuff lurking there. Than all I have to worry about are the speed reduction devices left behind by the manure spreaders. (I am much more agressive in my car than on my bike BTW.) That said understanding how a line works and how to pick it will definatly help with your cornering skills. The fellow who writes for Rider magazine, Larry sombody or other is very good on this whole topic and even teaches road riding classes. Track days adn battle trax are good at learning control of your bike as well as your your and it's limits but don't over real good street riding techniques. Dave | ||
| Jim_Witt |
In 5 or 10 minutes on a silly sheet of paper, I showed Loli some basic line selection concepts. She was convinced that looking at it on paper would be useless but she listened despite her strongest urges to ignore me. I want'a see the piece of paper! -JW:>  | ||
| Sarodude |
Dave- Right you are indeed. My intent wasn't to get Loli - or ANYONE - to use 100% of the asphalt. It's more about making the best use of maybe 80% or 90% of your lane (ahem, Sean) at whatever cornering intensity you may be comfortable with. I'm TOTALLY with you. This wasn't about the Fast Line so much as about a Safe Line. I'm also much more of an animal on 4 wheels on mountain roads. WRT to Fly's comment- Clearly, everything matters. Upsetting the chassis with abrupt happenings makes life truly suck. That part I kinda glop under vehicle control. A good deal of smoothness comes from knowing what's coming - and more importantly, what you're gonna do with it. A mid corner correction detracts from all sorts of smoothness. By Seeing the turn to your best advantage, your ability to predict what you've got to do improves vastly - so your line is less likely to change with resulting improvements in smoothness. That smothness applies to braking, turn in, transition to power... On the street and ESPECIALLY on unfamiliar stuff, late apexing is really the name of the game - in my book, anyway. If you're clipping your apex and see that you were too conservative, you can just open things up a bit more. The key to street riding is erring on the conservative side. JW- The silly piece of paper by no means covered all kindsa situations... It was mainly there to illustrate how to evaluate something like a decreasing radius turn without having a heart attack. The vast majority of people - be it on 2 or 4 wheels - apex too early. I'm not talking for safety - I'm talking just trying to go fast. They don't use the most of the entrace side of the pavement (starting more towards the center) and further handicap themselves with an early apex - turning the middle and far sides of a turn into a damage control session. I perceive one of the contributors to this phenomena to be the lack of confidence in one's ability to get a bike turned in. Lotsa folks might nod their heads to countersteering - if they even acknowledge it at all. However, if you don't feel like you can really crank on those bars and authoritatively and confidently lean & turn NOW, this type of stuff becomes moot. Anyway, I may have misstated my point... My point was to always keep learning. Be open to acceptance as well as improvement of your skills / limitations. Just 'cause you got from point L to point V (A & B are HIGHLY overrated) doesn't mean it couldn't have been done any better. Anyway... -Saro | ||
| Rocketman |
Dave I think that's true wherever we ride. Having said that, riding around Colorado on several types of roads and surfaces, which is probably an average representation of many American roads, is no way the same as riding our roads over here. I'd say, from my own experiences, our roads are possibly more 'line' user friendly  I always wondered how Jimmy Dean could have hit a truck in the middle of nowhere, but when you've been to the States the wondering stops. Despite my leading you to believe I'm some kind of road riding demon, I'm not as crazy as you might think. I always think ahead . I'm by no means the fastest either, not even close, but usually I'm only stupid when looning around with others on two wheels, which is possibly the most dangerous time to be looning, as we all know! Ride inside your limits is always a good thing to TRY to do but that's difficult sometimes when you ride a bike. Rocket | ||
| Blake |
On the street I almost always ride between the center line and the middle of my lane (left half of my lane). I try to stay in the lefthand wheel track. There is no line to worry about, just follow the road. Anything more aggressive than that... you need to take it to the track. | ||
| Rocketman |
There is no line to worry about, just follow the road. Anything more aggressive than that... you need to take it to the track. Blake old fart, why do you persist in shoving your ideals down our throats? The above comment sums up your attitude in the 'War is the only answer' thread too. Should we all behave in the way in which suits you, and I'm certain there's many more share your view(s), we'd ALL be BORING. I bought a Streetfighter so's I could go and streetfight. Please don't take my FREEDOM away! Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Who needs a line anyway - if you can ride like this that is ... Henrik (I wish ) | ||
| Firemanjim |
Sean,my friend--it was only our worry that you would meet one of our wonderous automobile drivers that are SO inept that had us giving you a hard time---that and you were throwing our concentration off when you cut across where we KNEW no motorcyclist was gonna go!!Twas a rockin' good time,wasn't it? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Henrik... thanks for that link, that was AMAZING! My jaw is still dropped... | ||
| Rocketman |
Jim it was the best time, even though I've still not recovered from the 'American Early to Bed Syndrome' Riding the Rockies is awesome mate, and in such great company too. Now about that 'double yeller' stuff, do I have to behave next time  Rocket | ||
| Rick_A |
I try to use most of my lane...yet leave some room for error (allowing for more lean if necessary). If making a right hand turn I tend to use most of the lane...going left I like to leave some room on the inside otherwise it feels like my upper body is a hanging target for a car. I have a friend back home that likes to cross the double yellow when going through turns at double the posted limit and beyond. How he avoids getting hit is beyond me. | ||
| Henrik |
Well, if the turn catches up with you, just get both tires sliding, swing the rear around, stay on the gas and wheelie out of the turn. something like this Henrik (again, I wish) | ||
| Aesquire |
Here's a different take on the line. Riding the Pace Actually the "pace" uses the "line". I don't claim to ride this way, I tend to use just my lane, and love to muscle the bike into the turn. This time of year it's a big game of "avoid the salt/sand drifts". | ||
| Sportyeric |
Sarodude is right that most people apex too early. When I'm on a hot pace I have to keep saying to myself," Not yet! Not yet!" Early apexing is a huge safety issue. The back side of the turn just disappears if you've apexed to early! Sean is a bad boy for crossing the center-line! Remember, we're not actually in a hurry to get anywhere. We're just having fun! If there was big money on it, we'd be running past the shoulder markings, too. But we don't 'cause the lines define the fun zone and over the line is the run-off zone if things go just a little wrong. Aequire's link had some good points about straightaway speeds. Given that that is where the speed traps will usually be, I like to slow right down on most straights until the cars are almost catching up from the last set of twisties, then give'er again for the next set. Keeps from getting velocitized and keeps the license relatively clean. As the article says, you can be dangerous at 55mph in the canyons! I've noticed a good hint for gravel on the road is the presence of a gravelled shoulder. Lazy bastards in pick-up trucks will use that as roadway. If the pavement drops off sharply to grass, or void, chances are the corner will be clean. | ||
| Sarodude |
That article on The Pace is very good. I tend to agree with most of The Pace except for the lack of Brake Light use. I believe that even if you're not using the brakes, while engine braking you should lightly squeeze the brake just to alert those following of decel. There seems to almost be a pressure in riding The Pace to not illuminate your brake light. What's the difference between decel at .15 g from engine braking or .15 g from light braking to the guy following you? Zip. Use the Brake Light. Just my opinion. -Saro | ||
| Nevco1 |
Ienatch's article concerning riding the pace is an excellent piece and really applies to Buells and other low reving high torque motorcycles. This is the concept used for eons before the article was written in 1993 by the fast guys on BMW's and the like. The only way they could keep the speed over a twisty section was by riding fast and smooth. The first time I rode with these guys through unfamiliar roads, I had to work real hard at keeping up. I had a much more powerful bike with significantly better handling. I was killing them from the apex to the next turn but the delayed (and heavy) braking gave them the advantage leading into and mostly through the turns. Was real glad to learn their technique at the lunch stop and practice with them on the way home. Dang, I was riding smoother, faster and more relaxed without undue wear and tear on either me or the bike. My best suggestion is to go find your favorite section of twisties and run them a few times with your normal technique and then repeat several times using Ienatch's pace technique. I am confident that you will find yourself covering the same ground at similar if not better times and both you and your bike will last longer. | ||
| Reepicheep |
This is as good a place as any to bring this up... I read that article a long time ago, and follow it pretty well. I first read it before I even had a bike, so I never really learned a "wrong way". After my first 20k miles on a bike though, I have a couple minor nits. First of all, the "don't hang off" thing probably cost me my only lowside to date. I was doing just what they suggest, hitting a hard left hander, almost but not quite dragging pegs, not hanging off the inside, moving maybe 20mph. Unfortunately, there was a 4 inch deep 8 inch long sinkhole dead in the middle of my line (smooth edges, effectively invisible in the mottled sunlight conditions) in the pavement. I now think I understand what happened (a year later... at the time I just remember suddenly sliding along behind the bike with my first thought being "thats not fair, I was not going NEARLY fast enough to lowside *that*time*). When I hit the dip, I was cranked over and the only effective suspension I had was sidewall flex. The further you go over, the less your suspension can do anything, so even an imperfection as "minor" as a four inch hole is a show stopper. You could see it when you went back and looked, nothing leading up to the hole, and two thick black streaks picking up on the other side of it where the tires came back to earth. So anyway, now I wonder if you should not do all the stuff of the pace, but give yourself a little more margin by sneaking your center of gravity forward and inside. Not really hanging off, but getting down over the tank and pretty far forward on the bike. The more upright the bike, the more suspension you have left. | ||
| Nevco1 |
Reep...I and I believe Ienatch will agree with you. In his world, hanging off is virtually Knee Dragging with an inch or so to spare. There are many positions in between, especially the forward weighting, that will improve the situation and are still considered relatively upright. FYI, the folks I learned from were current and former editors of the various So Cal MC mags when I lived out there. Many exciting rides and a ton of knowledge was acquired. |
