| Author | Message | ||
     Bruce1 |
Gentlemen, New to this site so forgive me if I'm in the wrong location, but looking for 'sound' advise on the best bang for the buck and how-to's on getting to something slightly over 100 rwh. I have an 02 M2L with 9,000 miles, bolt in SE(lightening) cams, stock carb, just purchased a race header that I'm having ceramic coated and need to do something about a muffler. I am considering pulling the heads and doing some mild bowl blending and a bigger carb if needed. I also considered trying to see if I can use the 'Jims' 1.7 rollers to get approx the same lift as the race cams. I think I'd have to add better springs as the race cams kit come with them. Not sure if this is a coil bind issue or just extra messure to eliminate any potential float. Can anything be milled off the heads w/o getting into trouble with either deck problems or pushing the stock push rods to far into to lifter bores. (I'd like to think that .020-.030 shouldn't hurt if I can do it w/o deck problems.) Is there a thinner head gasket that might be used? I'd appreciate some educated/experienced 'what works' input. thanks in advance... Bruce | ||
| Mikej |
Bruce, Start here. Then start rummaging around the rest of the Knowledge topics. Should be plenty. If you add to your profile approximately where you're located someone may be able to point you to a local good shop as well. | ||
| Mikej |
Pittsburg, WestVirginia, Maryland is where your ISP provider is apparently located. If so, good news, click here or here for local peoples. Hope this helps. Welcome to the net-neighborhood. | ||
| Bruce1 |
Mike, I'm located in North Western PA, between Erie and Pittsburgh. Also forgot to mention that I added the Race ign.(6,800) thanks Bruce | ||
| Blake |
Bruce, Your old ignition would rev to 6,800. Did the dealer tell you otherwise? The only difference is that the stock ignition module, starting at around 6,200 rpm, has a less aggressive advance curve. If you want 100+RWHP, check all the dyno charts on the Dyno Charts page in the Knowledge Vault. The easy solution is to send your heads or entire engine to Cycle-Rama or Nallin Racing and ask them how best to achieve the type of performance you are wanting. Are you willing to sacrifice low end torque for peak HP? | ||
| Kcbill |
A Nallin 1250 kit with stage 3 heads will give you every bit or that. Maybe some 536 cams too. You want an ignition module you can adjust. Give Brian Nallin at 303-833-4500. Cycle Rama are also a good source. Both are web advertisers here. cyclerama.com Say hi to the Queen of the universe when or if you call. | ||
| Jimidan |
Let me say at the on-set, that I have the highest respect for Nallins services, and have a set of his T-storm heads myself. So, you could ship your engine to the deep south and have it modified, or you could drive a few hours West and take it to a reputable engine builder in Upper Sandusky, OH, called Hot Shot Motorworks. Shipping an engine is quite expensive...shucks, just shipping heads to the deep South will cost you over $50 each way. That is why I have been using this machine shop in OH for a while now. There is something about looking the guy in the eye who is going to take your pride and joy and make it better. It helps to see what kind of shop they run too. If you could eat off of the benches, your half way there. Call me fickle, but I beleive it is better to use local talent if you can find the quality, just in case there is a problem (and there can be problems with hopped up HD engines...don't ask me how I know). Then you can take your bike to them and have it analyzed, without having to pull the engine and ship it across the country. Check out their web site at: http://www.hotshotmotorworks.com/ Like I said, I have the highest respect for Nallin and Cycle-Rama, and they both advertise on this site, but they are a world away from NW Penn. I drive 5 1/2 hours to get to Hot Shot from central KY, and it would be a chip shot for you to get there. I also have the highest respect for Hot Shot, who has built me a couple of 88" engines that are killer...like 130 + HP. You don't have to go all out like I did, but they could get you 100 + HP out of your engine fairly easily. They have a computer program that will tell you what you can expect with your chosen mods. They have a water brake engine dyno that will do the initial breakin and thoroughly test the engine they build you. Plus, they will give you a year warranty, with unlimited mileage...I don't know anybody else who will build you a hopped-up Harley and guarantee it for a year. FYI, I am not affiliated with Hot Shot in any way, other than they have earned my trust and that I have given them large chunks of the inheritance my Mom left me on Buell engines. She would have wanted me to spend it on something I really enjoy...in fact today was her birthday! Thanks again Mom. | ||
| Bruce1 |
Thanks guys, I do appriciate the input... I'll do some phone calls and try and obsorb the needed info before doing much more. I just wanted to know what works,,, from those who have already been there. My stock inginition shut off at 6300-ish on the cyclone and hell no I don't want to give anything up. OK, I do understand motors, have done some pretty intense auto builds, but this paint shaker stuff is new to me, however ADDICTING. thanks... | ||
| Blake |
Bruce, If your rev limiter is kicking in at 6300, then you do not have a stock M2 ignition module. Maybe one from an old S2. | ||
| Jsunstar |
try new castle harley/buell, they are one of the only ones around here not dropping the buell stuff totally... NC has good info too, locally, its its frustrating no one to get advice from...the dealers are useless. this forum has been more help than any other source of info, especially the dealers! im from beaver county, pittsburgh area. gimme a shout this spring! jason | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Heres a dyno chart that I found very nice! As well as a good listing of what it will take to get that output. http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/messages/3842/12072.html?1018713547#POST95921 Craig Buell Cycle Center | ||
| Blake |
Personally, I like this one even better... ![:]](http://www.badweatherbikers.com/buell/clipart/proud.gif) BIG low end and midrange. | ||
| Twodogs |
Bruce1, Hal's just finished my S3 this week. Put XB top ends on top of an X-1 crank,44mm cv carb, sceamin chickin selectable ignition, lots of machining I cant talk about(I'd have to kill you)and the girl made 102rwhp and 86ft lbs trq.Yer gonna have to part with some cash to make 100+ | ||
| Twodogs |
Blake, why does all yer stuff fall off @5500rpm's?? Heads not flowing?? | ||
| Blake |
Twodogs, The heads have outstanding flow. The engine starts to lose peak breathing efficiency at the higher speeds becasue the CM580 cams are low overlap and do not support efficient exhaust scavenging at high rpm. They were chosen specifically for BIG low end and midrange. The stock carburetor is also becoming restrictive at the high end. If falling off at 5,500 rpm still nets me 100 RWHP and while giving me 80 FT*LB at 3,000 rpm, I'm too happy. If it were a pure race bike, I would put in a bigger carb and cams cut for more top end and a racing exhaust system. As it is Nallin Racing gave me more than I asked for with my Buell headers and a Borla slip on. You might also ask, why does my engine pull so well between 3,000 and 5,500 rpm. That's where I most often run the engine. I want the power where I most often use it. Cruising at 75 MPH on slightly worn tires puts the tach (if I had one) at about 3700 rpm. My "stuff" is putting out 87 FT*LB and 61 RWHP. The SE cammed engine is putting out 79 FT-LB and 57 RWHP. Both very good performance. One is better down low, one is better up high. It just depends which one you prefer. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Blake... I also wonder how much of an improvement you will also get with longevity with that type of tune. No matter how good the update work, it seems our long stroke engines do NOT like spending much time at redline. Better to tune for midrange, and spend your time there. The old tube frame Buells will make great track day bikes, but there are a lot better choices for pure racing. On the flip side, race bikes make great "occasional use" street bikes, but there are a lot better choices for riding in the real world. Your tuning makes perfect sense. | ||
| Blake |
Yes, stress goes up with rpm squared. I wish the Dyna 2000 ignition module had a 6,800 rpm limit. It provides limits from 6,000 to 7,500 in 500 rpm increments. Also of note is that it is actually desirable in road racing for the HP to drop off at peak rpms. That type of forgiving power curve can help to maintain control if/when the rear wheel brakes loose accelerating out of a turn. Drag racing is another matter though. I should note that the above mentioned dyno runs use different correction standards. Aaron showed me mine using SAE correction and it lost 2 HP at peak, so about 2%. | ||
| Aaron |
Bruce, 100rwhp is a pretty easy target. It can even be done with the cams and carb you have, although a little more in both departments makes it easier. We've done a bunch of them like Kevin Hern's bike (see the link that Craig posted). SE 536's, an HSR42 or CV44, stage 2 or 3 heads, combined with a reasonable exhaust system. We just tuned one for a customer a few weeks ago in fact, I'll dig out the sheet when I get home but it looks a lot like Kevin's, a table flat torque curve and 105hp peak. That's a sweet combination that's not overly expensive, relatively speaking, because you don't need expensive Red Shifts or roller rockers or collapsible covers. I'd stay away from high ratio rockers unless you're willing to do the things needed to correct the valvetrain geometry. They really mess it up in these things. They're not like a Chevy where you can vary the distance between the rocker fulcrum and valve tip by just changing the pushrod length. I've literally put the things on only to measure less lift because it jacked up the geometry so bad. Blake, when are you bringing that boat anchor back over it so I can fiddle with it? There's always more! | ||
| 99buellx1 |
Aaron, I was just floored by the torque curve(or lack thereof), thats why I picked that dyno chart. I honestly dont think ive seen that flat of a torque reading before. Very well done. Craig Buell Cycle Center Waterloo, Iowa | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, If I get a chance I'd love to ride it up for a visit this summer. What was interesting is that in optimizing the timing with the Dyna 2000 set to curve 3, it ended up at -3o from the factory baseline static timing. Am I wrong, or does that speak very well of the efficiency and thoroughness of mixing within the chamber? Or is it an indication that it might be on the rich side of optimum carburetion? | ||
| Twodogs |
blake, didn't mean to offend you or yer engine,I obviously lack the knowledge you fast guys possess. I was led to believe the Nallin stuff was out of this world. It IS an impressive dyno chart, I honestly wanted to know why it falls off.The stock carb makes sense. Please forgive the intrusion. | ||
| Jimidan |
On Feb 19 Blake said, "Also of note is that it is actually desirable in road racing for the HP to drop off at peak rpms. That type of forgiving power curve can help to maintain control if/when the rear wheel brakes loose accelerating out of a turn." Did you mean to say that, or to say that is is desireable in road racing for the "torque" to drop off at peak rpms? I think your torque curve (dyno results) is exactly what road racers and dirt trackers want...that big "X" where the HP curve continues to climb while the torque curve drops off at upper rpms. The thing you want as a road racer is when the rear wheel spins-up coming out of an apex hard on the throttle, the torque drops so that the tire hooks up again. Dirt trackers have known this forever and designed their torque bands accordingly. This was a lesson that Honda had to learn too with the RC51s to get them to hook up, which was a big problem when they first came out...too much high rpm torque. Considering the 2002 AMA and World Superbike results, I'd say they learned it. I am also a fan of high lift, moderate overlap cams. Have you ever seen Woods Performance cams? Check them out at: http://www.woodcarbs.com/cams.htm I have a set of the W-8 in my 88". | ||
| Blake |
Twodogs, Absolutely no offense. You asked a great question. I am VERY happy with the engine though. I guess you could tell eh?  Jimidan, You may be right. Of course if HP is dropping, the torque is falling quickly! Maybe HP can stay constant or even still climb as long as torque is dropping enough to allow the rear wheel to hook up again. | ||
| Aaron |
WTF are you guys talking about? You can't drop torque at a given rpm without also dropping hp; hp is torque x rpm. Tune for less torque at *any* rpm and you get less hp at that rpm. Man, that's doing it backwards where I come from BTW, Bob Wood's booth was right by ours at the Indy show. Interesting guy and just as nice to us as could be. I had a good talk with Joe Minton over at the Mikuni booth, too. He has some interesting, non-mainstream views on cams as well, and not necessarily the same as Bob's. Fascinating guy to talk to, he certainly gave me some things to ponder, particularly with respect to how lobe profiles relate to stroke and rod length. | ||
| Blake |
Aaron, We are referring to a decrease in torque output as engine speed approaches the rev limit like my dyno shows. In dirt track and road racing, if you tune the bike for peak torque at/near peak rpm you have no forgiveness when/if the rear tire breaks loose under acceleration. When the rear tire breaks loose it allows engine speed to increase; if torque is still increasing or remaining constant the rear tire will continue to spin up instead of have a chance to regain grip in a smooth manner. Kinda like a runaway chain reaction. However, if the torque drops, the tire speed quickly reaches equilibrium and more easily regains grip or continues in a controllable slide. I think Kevin Cameron wrote about this in a fairly recent issue of CW. Pretty cool eh. Not something you need to consider for LSR or drag racing though. | ||
| Aesquire |
Blake, I love that dyno graph, looks like fun. Aaron, did you sell the M2 heads yet? I must have PMS (parked motorcycle syndrome) because I just ordered a Wileyco muffler, and I'm still on break in. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but after pouring over this site, 1) external parts (pipes, intake mods) gain 1-2 hp, but clean up the torque curve. 2) Headwork & cams are the only sure way to get more peak hp. (and I'm betting Nallin & Cycle-Rama RULE!) | ||
| Aaron |
 Here's the bike I referred to, that we just did for a local guy. It's almost a twin to the setup in Kevin Hern's bike and it's dyno sheet is very similar as you can see. RichieG has basically the same setup and is reporting much the same result, although I haven't personally seen his sheet. We can (and do) make more than this for people but obviously the cost goes up. This is a nice performing package that doesn't take a whole bunch of expensive parts to acheive. Aequire, yes, I sold those heads, sorry. | ||
| Aaron |
BTW, going forward, this type of stuff is really where we'll be focusing the R&D. We'll do some of the "max hp" stuff for the Frank Ammerman's of the world, but really, the meat of the market is moderate cost streetable packages with good reliability and longevity. Frank's setup actually should last well but it wasn't cheap by any means. I have a bunch of ideas and the M2 will be pulling "guniea pig" duty for awhile. | ||
| Buelliedan |
I have over 400rwp!! Of course that's distributed between 5 bikes!! | ||
| Richieg150 |
Aaron,I will get my bike dynoed with the 2000 ignition module,and send you the sheet!I just wish a Force Exhaust would fall into my lap.So many options,so few dollars LOL! |
