| Author |
Message |
    
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:06 pm: | 
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Blake:
Personal apology for fool comment. Undeserved.
Ben |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:30 pm: |
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The AMA left out one part of their quote..."a level playing field for all competitors...who want to make bikes in exactly the configuration chosen by the Japanese Big Four" (or is it 3 1/2 now?) |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:07 am: |
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Every one is using WSB as an example...but how often have you seen anything but Japanese manufacturers on the podium in AMA Superbike? Last I remember any non-Japanese bike having a consistent podium position was in the Ducati 888 era. What happened there?
I think it's a shame the AMA is blind to other machines. It wasn't always that way...I remember Supertwins and 883 TwinSport...now I thought that was entertaining American racing. 883 racing was affordable for privateers...and despite "slow" bikes they battled it out in some great battles...and the best part was that the bikes were very much what you could get in your show room...albiet with more of a "supersport" emphasis. I'm sure there were other classes that have slipped my mind...but those were my favorites.
I just think it'd do them more good than bad to get some more "grass roots" type classes again...to draw in more fans then the hyperbike crowd.
Hell, they were even talking about eliminating 250GP. What's left then? Superbike, Supersport, and Superstock. Woah...all IL-4's...how diverse and exciting. It's getting as exhilarating as a NASCAR race  . |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:17 am: |
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Rick, the only problem is the folks dont want to watch slow bikes race. Been to RA a few times & the stands are empty & people are just screwing around during the "slow" races. But as soon as the big guns come out on the track its a whole different story. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 02:17 am: |
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Ben,
No one expects the XB9R to dominate AMAPR SS if allowed to compete. But Buells should be allowed to compete if someone so chooses, so too should the Ducati 748/749. And the rules in SBK should be formulated to maintain parity among twins, fours, and fives or sixes if they ever come to pass.
Imonabus,
Yep. Why is it so difficult for some to grasp reality? I'm guessing such individuals also number among the group who would need Saddam to shove a dirty bomb up their ass, pull it back out and show it to them before they would agree that forcing him to disarm is a necessary action.
As a program manager it was always people like that who put my projects at risk. They were never willing to imagine the possibilities of problems or to proactively confront them when they became evident. They invariably would wait until the proverbial shit hit the fan, shrug their shoulders and say something like, "stuff happens" or worse try to pass the buck.
Sorry for the flashback. Bad memories. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 08:56 am: |
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XB9R's CAN compete in the AMA, in a class with less factory competition from the other manufacturers, with modifications the others aren't allowed.
How would you propose to structure rules for SBK that would be fair to all engine configurations? I'd love to see them.
Saddam? Come on, what do anyone's political views have to do with this? The more people that post against your point of view, the more nasty you get.
NASCAR engines make power near 800 hp for 358 cu. in. At 73.22 cu in, that's 163.62hp. Nascar engines are also restricted to 12:1 compression ratio, they can't use titanium con-rods, they use a single carburetor of specific size, etc. With no other limitations than pushrod (or even two-valve) lets look back at 1980's-era superbikes, where 1-liter two-valve fours made 150RWHP. With a straight hp-per-displacement division, a 20% increase in displacement would give 180RWHP, more than competetive. And, that's not accounting for any progress in port design & configuration since that time (or airbox resonance, ram-air effect, etc). IF NASCAR was allowed to run single-runner, vertical port intakes, do you think their output might go up? How about Ducati 1-liter bikes from 4-5 years ago? 150rwhp? What would 200 more cc's give them? Again, given the displacement advantage AND lower RPM (which would allow a p-rod valvetrain at 10,000rpm) with a twin configuration, an "all new" pushrod engine at 1200cc's could easily be competetive in Superbike. You use NASCAR as the pinnacle of pushrod capability, its not. Its a class carefully designed with strict limitations. Creative engineering WITHIN the rules? No doubt. But it is NOT the limit. If NASCAR let the rules open up with no other restriction than pushrod valvetrain, you state that the cars would be no faster.
The arena is open, Buell could try to dominate superstock this year with a factory supported effort. Let's see it. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:08 am: |
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Yamaha left WSBK two years ago, because of the rules. Anthony Gobert was racing the ex-WSBK R7 Superbike last year. Yamaha will not race AMA Superbike this year, because of the rules.
Quote:The AMA left out one part of their quote..."a level playing field for all competitors...who want to make bikes in exactly the configuration chosen by the Japanese Big Four" (or is it 3 1/2 now?)
Again, read the AMA rulebook:
Supersport
0-600cc 4-stroke four and twin cylinders
Superstock
0-750cc 4-stroke four cylinders
600cc-750cc 4-stroke liquid-cooled twin cylinders
700cc-1350cc 4-stroke air-cooled twin cylinders
Plenty of opportunity for someone who wishes to race in Superstock with something different, and if someone wanted to build, homologate and race a 600c VTwin, the rules would allow it.
_________________________________________________________
So the AMA is crooked for allowing 1000cc IL4's in Superbike? Well they joined the club, since WSBK and the British, Italian, Australian and Japanese Superbike series also allow 1000cc IL4 superbikes.
Once the actual racing starts, if they need to adjust the rules, they will, as 2003 is a transitional year for the rules, and 2004 is a proposed set of rules, and they will surely be adjusted based on what actually happens on the track this year.
"On Paper" the Patriots were not supposed to win the Super Bowl. As Chris Berman likes to say on ESPN, "That's why they play the game."
So far, the AMA factory Superbike and 600 SUPERSPORT teams have tested at Daytona, Laguna and Fontana. At Daytona the top two Superbike times were set by V-Twins, at Laguna Eric Bostrom on his 750cc Kawasaki set the fastest time. At Fontana, Mat Mladlin was fastest on his GSXR-1000.
Until the races actually happen, this is just interesting debate. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:20 am: |
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The other interesting part of the AMA rulebook:
Quote:3. Homologation.
(a) Supersport and Superstock motorcycles require homologation. See Supersport and Superstock Approval.
(b) Superstock twin cylinder motorcycles are exempt from the approval process.
...
...
5. Superstock Twin cylinder
Twin- cylinder 4-strokes are allowed the following modifications:
(a) Motorcycles must meet the following requirements in addition to the requirements in General Equipment Standards. All other modifications are unrestricted. Superstock twin-cylinder motorcycles are exempt from the approval and claiming process.
(b) Weight Minimum weight - 380 pounds (except liquid-cooled nondesmodromic which has no minimum)
(c) Tires must meet Superstock requirements.
They give Ducati and Buell that HUGE A LOOPHOLE in Superstock and you guys are still not happy? |
Joey
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:37 am: |
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After reading all this, the only thing I can think about is the V5. Questions about timing issues, engine size, and shape come to mind.
Oops! Off topic, huh? |
Featheredfiend
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:54 pm: |
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"They give Ducati and Buell that HUGE A LOOPHOLE in Superstock and you guys are still not happy?"
JQ,
I'm not a lawyer but where's the loophole? The 748/9 is not allowed any increase in displacement. Can a stock displacement 748/9 compete with an equal displacemnet IL-4? Look at your post of lap times/ave.mph at the five tracks. In all but Laguna the Pro Thunder pace was set by a 748RS. Compare its' time/mph to Superstock. I believe most Duck tuners would walk away from those stats. Just lots of work and sweat for a middle of the pack, VR'ish, finish.
I'll not be satisfied until I find myself in disagreement with you and Blake. Simultaneously. I'll then know I've reached the center of the universe.
Feathered |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 01:26 pm: |
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Roger,
What I said before. As for Hodgson being "good but not great"... Applesauce. The Brit rode some terrific races last year on a machine many would consider not prepared to the level of Bayliss' ride. He will be The rider to beat now that he has secured, by his talent, the top ride.
Feathered
Well i guess it just a matter of opinion, remeber this is his second chance at WSBK, and his age may become a factor, i am sure he will do well, but because of the limited amount of high end riders in WSBK this year(several have gone on to moto), and as far as Xaus is concerned, i was way wrong, he still rides for Ducati, must have been a late season rumor that Xaus was headed to Aprilla, makes me wonder why Ben is in the us, i always felt he was a better rider than Xaus, again an opinion
7. Inferring that you are a "layman" in the field of high performance racing engines was an assumption I made based upon your prior statements here. The term layman was not meant as an insult unlike calling someone an "insufferable fool."
Hey Blake an inference is a guess so maybe this quote applies to you also:
Ah....again, my friends on the internet gloriously illustrate why the word "guessing" means GUESSING.
"Guesssing" - "adj" - from the ancient Greek "I haven't a clue as to what I am talking about but the following snide comment will serve to underscore my unsupported, uninformed and argumentatively motivated point"
A discussion of fact is best when it leans toward each participant contributing what he/she KNOWS. The inclusion of guessing and speculation, particularly for the purpose of turning a discussion into a playground web brawl, serve little useful function.
Court
1. Please show me evidence of a stock displacement Buell that makes 130 RWHP. Who's the fool now?
NOS and or turbo, could put it in the ball park, i thought you mention something about reading someones mind a while ago
If a manufacturer builds a liquid cooled 1,000cc V8 streetbike that makes 220 RWHP in race form, should it be allowed to compete in SBK? It would represent the peak technology of the day? If it is available to the common squid on the street, and properly homologated, why not let it compete with no special restrictions against the four cylinder liter bikes? According to the logic offered here by some, it should be.
Isnt this what Foggy did in WSBK with the mylasian group know as Proton??? Also i belive this is what Benneli did last year with the tornado, again is WSBK, acording to the logic of some hear, they should not be alloweed to do this???
Oh one other thing, i mentioned our debate reguarding the vrod motor and what rick and Blake had both said and the dealer chuckled and said he had seen both motors side by side and that they were alomost identical, wonder how they ever got the motor into the vr1000??? in other words, the motor started in a sportbike and was put into a cruiser, i think its time to put it back, and go 750 ss racing, hell it could be a one off factory effort because of the rules(oh and those fins on the motor are not real) |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 01:50 pm: |
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How would you propose to structure rules for SBK that would be fair to all engine configurations? I'd love to see them.
I think the point is to allow all bikes that can perform at that level to be included...which is pretty much the whole debate of this discussion.
Benm2...comparing Nascar motors to Sportster/Buell motors is like comparing Indy engines to motorcycle DOHC motors. If, if , if...but it's street engines we're working with here.
If Buell had such a loophole they wouldn't still be underdogs. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 03:09 pm: |
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The point I was trying to make is that establishing parity between engine/bike packages would be difficult. Relatively easy to do AFTER the fact, but very difficult to before engine design has begun. The Japanese companies have spent millions developing the 600cc racebikes, and they are all built at the limit of the current rules. They know what the rules are, and have developed accordingly. After having supported a class that ONLY exists because they've make bikes for it for years with millions of dollars, it is not unreasonable to ask newcomers to use the same rules. When any of the big-four was outgunned in that class, development followed, season upon season. Buell has ALREADY been given an opportunity for this year (in the AMA PR Organization).
I wasn't comparing Nascar to Buell motors. I was saying that an engine with no other limitations that pushrod valvetrain and 1200cc could make alot of power. Also, I think its an established fact that the existing Buell powertrain IS a better street engine. This is about racing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:08 pm: |
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JQ,
Who's not listening now. GEESH! I'm okay with the current rules for SBK. It's the proposal for 2004, to allow the liter fours the same extent of performance upgrades as the twins and 800cc fours that is blatantly biased. Comprendé?
Based upon the new AMAPR Superstock rules, it would seem that an enerprising racer with a 1350cc version of a bored out Ducati Supersport could walk away with the championship. The desmo valvetrain allowing it to rev. I dunno, maybe?
The Superstock rules are the closest to exhibiting parity among different configurations of bikes, only because it is the ONLY class that remotely addresses the disparity in performance between them. Superbike is next in that it at least for now recognizes the disparity between twins and fours. Supersport does no such thing. And the AMA is now proposing to make SBK the same.
Let the Buell and Ducs race in SS. It is the class in which they most fit. Factory Supersport machines are supposedly putting out over 130RWHP, the Buell and Duc PT bikes are right there in the same arens. Let them race head to head in SS instead of putting them in with 150 RWHP Superstock bikes.
Ben,
Alright, you've convinced me. With a clean slate a 1200cc pushrod V-twin could be made to make 160 rwhp at 10K rpm or less. Throw enough money at something and get enough experts and you might be able to do it.
As to how I would structure the rules? It has already been done. See the CCS Superbike rules. See the CCS Supersport rules. It is VERY doable.
Roger,
Though an "inference" is quite different from a "guess", I am definitely a layman when it comes to performance race engines.
Feathered,
Damn you for your rationality! Arguing is a hobby of mine. It is more fun in person though where I can interrupt and out shout the opposition into submission. 
Basically we have two opposing philosophies. One agrees with the *stated* intentions of AMAPR; the other agrees with the actions and obvious agenda of AMAPR, teh two are in stark contrast. One agrees with Erik Buell, the other supports the claims and actions of AMA Pro Racing. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:37 pm: |
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What does Jeff Nash think about the issue...
I just finished a phone interview with Mr. Jeff Nash of Advanced Motor Sports. The Advanced Motor Sports team campaigned a Ducati 748 in the AMA Pro Thunder series. They won the 2000, and 2002 series championships. Jeff himself rode to the championship in 2000, and finished 2nd in 2001 while in 2002 veteran World Superbike racer Kirk McCarthy brought home the championship for the Advanced Motor Sports team. Kudos to jeff Nash and company.
I was saddened to hear that Advanced Motor Sports has sold their Pro Thunder race bike and will be sitting out of 2003 AMA racing. When asked why, Jeff said that he was burned out with racing and with AMA Pro Racing and needed a break. He said that there is no possible way for them to be competitive with the 748RS in AMAPR Superstock where the Suzuki GSXR750's are routinely putting down 147 RWHP. Jeff said that they had pushed the 748RS as far as possible on their mostly self funded budget. He is very proud that through tireless work and investment he was able to pull an impressive 130+ RWHP out of the venerable Ducati 748RS. He said that titanium valves might give them a bit more, but that they were already very near the limit of the engine's ability to hold together and simply could not afford any further development just to get beat up by a supposedly near stock GSXR750.
I asked Jeff what if anything the 749R would bring to future racing efforts. He said that "the testastretta head will support significantly more HP." He felt that a 749 would be competitive with the Japanese 600 L4's and that they should be allowed into AMAPR Supersport competition.
Jeff said that he is very disappointed and frustrated with the management of AMA Pro Racing, specifically Scott Hollingsworth, and their blatantly unfair bias towards the Japanese big four. He is frustrated that AMAPR excludes the Ducati 748/749 from racing in Supersport, and he is confounded that AMAPR is proposing to allow the liter fours the same level of performance upgrades as the twins in Superbike. He is certain that would end the viability of twin cylinder bikes in Superbike.
Jeff does not appreciate the pro Japanese bias that has completely infiltrated AMA Pro Racing. He feels that it is terrible for the sport and reflects poorly upon AMAPR. He drew a comparison to the unfortunate situation that unfolded recently in his native Australia where the premier Aussie racing series suffered a massive decline in participation and popularity due to mismanagement of class rules.
When asked why the AMAPR would not allow the 748/749 to race in Supersport, Jeff replied very matter of factly "The Japanese factories do not want the competition and unfortunately they pull the strings at AMA Pro Racing." He went on to say that "The AMA (Pro Racing) may not want to hear it, but everything Erik Buell said in his interview with Road Racing World was true."
We had a good laugh about the AMAPR rebuttal to RRW where they quoted out of context one of Erik's letters stating that racing in Superstock was "preferred" for Buell, when in fact Erik was referring to the choice offered Buell and the other Pro Thunder teams to race in either Formula Extreme or Superstock.
To summarize, he agrees 100% with everything Erik Buell said in his interview with Road Racing World. He would like to be able to race a Ducati 749R in AMAPR Supersport. He recognizes the blatant favoritism and bias towards the Japanese factories. He is burned out and tired of the bullshit from AMAPR and so is sitting out the 2003 season.
I asked Jeff if he thought that AMA Pro Racing was just a bunch of eager to please idiots or whether something disingenuous and shady were going on. He was silent. I promised I would not quote him on his answer, so you'll have to ask him yourself if you want to know. We did both agree, however that the management of AMA Pro Racing were probably not idiots.
In closing I repeated my congratulations and admiration of his efforts in Pro Thunder and asked him if I might see him at any of the CMRA races this year. He perked up at that and seemed to be open to the idea. I hope he makes it to Oak Hill Raceway for one of the three events there this year. We need more people like Mr. Nash in motorcycle racing.
I gotta go pick up my belly pan! Gonna race the Buell this year! Whoooo whooooo! (send money) (also to Peter) 
Blake
PS: If you are interested in the championship winning 748RS, check out the March issue of Road Racing World and Motorcycle Technology, where Michael Hannas (GP Racer) takes it to the races. It gives you some insight into how much more than just weight and RWHP come to play in competitive racing. And this was *just* club racing with the CMRA. They also have an article about crashing the Tularis 800cc 2-stroke, an in depth review and complete detailed specifications of the new CBR600RR, and a bunch of other way cool stuff. |
Featheredfiend
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:22 pm: |
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Blake,
Thanks for a great post. It was upon Jeff's effort that I based my suppositions. Disappointing to see talent like his, and a few others, sidelined by wrong-headed thinking. Some months back, on this forum, a few referred to the Advanced bike as a full-on factory race effort. That couldn't be further from the truth. No matter who you cheer for, it's privateer efforts that flavor the pot.
Feathered |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:40 pm: |
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Quote:...and unfortunately they pull the strings at AMA Pro Racing
and at the FIM, FUSA, WSBK and the rest, as long as that is what sells, that is what you'll see on the track.
Kevin has a choice, he can race FUSA Sportbike and Thunderbike and help FUSA grow and prosper.
But if they are not racing in the "Big Leages" with the AMA, he'd rather not race. Short sighted, if you ask me.
BTW, Michael Hannas rode both the Hal's Pro Thunder Firebolt and the AMS Ducati. He liked the Ducati better. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:56 pm: |
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Quote:I'm not a lawyer but where's the loophole? The 748/9 is not allowed any increase in displacement
Loophole was a poor choice of words.
True, they are not allowed an increse in displacement, the rules clearly say that. Howevery they are excempt from the same Homologation, Claiming and modification requirements that IL4 Superstock bikes have to follow. Buells get the same breaks and also are allowed displacement 350cc above what the street bike displaces.
For 2003, no, they will not be competitive with a GSXR 750. But 2004?
I think that there won't be a 2004 Suzuki GSXR-750 or Kawasaki ZX7R, because no set of rules anywhere in the world will require them to be made, so they won't.
Privateers will either build 1000cc bikes and race Superbike, or a 600cc bike and race Supersport.
Which will leave the Ducs, Buells, 636cc Kawasakis, SV's and whatever else shows up to race in Superstock, if they stick around for a year.
It's only a theory, but I think that's what will happen. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 09:59 pm: |
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Feathered,
AMAZING how stock the AMS Ducati was. Kevin definetly did a great job getting the extra power out of the surprisingly stock motor, and Kirk rode the heck out of it. Great article. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 11:26 pm: |
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Jose,
Actually in the article, Michael Hannas says the Buell definitely handled better, but he preferred the power of the Ducati...and on a race track that usually makes the difference BTW, I was told by members of the AMS team during the season that their Ducati was measured at 140 HP. I guess that's over 130...
Also, it's hard to believe it wasn't a factory bike. I mean the one that Jeff Nash rode the year before was posted for sale at the end of that season as a factory Ducati...hard to believe they'd set him up with a World Superbike rider and downgrade his bike. Not to take anything away from Jeff and AMS, they did a great job, being in charge of running the bike, but that's the level of bike and power it took.
In any case, I'll bet the 750s will be over 150 by next year, which puts the end to 120HP Buells and 130+HP Ducatis(oh, sure, and the 750s are completely stock...just a pipe and tuning...hell an R1 only makes 128 at the rear wheel!!!)
I also know that Ducati is darned unlikely to field a factory bike somewhere where they are unlikely to win a championship (aka AMA Superstock), which is probably having a significant influence on his choice to stay out.
It's all well and good to pontificate about how anyone who wants to race should just pony up and do it, as long as you remember it's nothing but pontification. No one wants to spend money on a guaranteed losing season, and I'm darned sure Ducati and Buell are not going to build IL4's just to satisfy the AMA.
Or, what about the unique limited production 10,000RPM short pushrod 4-valve that some company should spend a couple of years and millions of dollars building and testing, to release just in time for the AMA to change the rules again(remember the RW-750?). And then when they build it for the street, it would be maligned for being "low-tech".
A lot of opinions on here are pretty sad for Buell guys...I mean, if you want a cookie cutter inline four go to www.hakawaki.com...or the AMA. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 01:03 am: |
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José,
What about "Everything Erik Buell said was true" do you fail to comrehend? 
Who is "Kevin"? 
If you "think" that there will not be a 2004 GSXR750, you are not thinking too well. Does club racing mean anything to you? How about "displacement based insurance premiums"?
I suppose Honda will drop the RC51/VTR1000SP too? They still sell the old Superhawk. Not every model of sporting motorcycle is predicated on a race specific purpose.
The GSXR750 is probably THE single most long lived, dominant and popular race bike in the history of motorcycling. Kudos to Suzuki. No, I don't see a legend like the GSXR750 going away anytime soon. Rather, I'd expect Suzi to continue to dominate that niche while continuing to kick everyone's ass in AMAPR Superstock and all the club superbike racing series.
As to Michael Hannas' preference for the AMS 748RS over the Hals XB9R, his actual words are...
Quote:All in all, I had a good time riding the AMS Ducati 748RS. It was probably one of the most fun bikes I have ridden. It wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of the Hal's Performance Advantage Buell Firebolt, but in my opinion it was a better racebike. Just the extra power it had would make it my choice even if it is a little more more temperamental and harder to set up. The Buell's chassis was definitely more confidence inspiring, but give me the power baby.
I hate to tell all you Pro Thunder competitors, but Kirk McCarthy isn't some freak of nature, and the bike couldn't win with a monkey at the controls. The rider and bike as a package are what made it nearly unbeatable.
I agree with that last sentence entirely.
It's interesting to note that Michael Hannas, the article's author, was able to spend a two entire days with the support of the AMS Ducati team performing testing then acutally racing on the AMS 748RS.
He participated fully in practice sessions all day Friday at Motorsports Ranch in Cresson, TX (near Fort Worth). Motorsports ranch is a VERY nice country club type facility for motor enthusiasts in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex. If you visit the facility you'll find lots of Viper, Vette, Porche, BMW, and Ferrari enthusiasts, even open wheel spec racers and of course motorcycle enthusiasts. Michael spent Friday dialing in the suspension to suit his weight and riding style, then again on Sunday was able to join the CMRA in two pre-race practice sessions. Then he gridded and actually competed aboard the AMS 748RS in the CMRA Super Twins race. He finished second behind another 748RS. Then came the Unlimited GP money race, but as he was working his way to the front he mistook the oil temperature as water temperature and pitted thinking the $35,000 race bike was overheating. Darn multi-function LCD displays!
I wonder how he would have felt about the Hal's XB9R if he had been given a similar country club racetrack outing and if he had ridden it most recently.
Still think the 748/749 should not be allowed into AMAPR Supersport? Why was that again?
To answer your question.. for 2004 they will not be competitive with the GSXR750's either.
You are something else José, you actually have the gall to criticize a privateer who poured his heart and soul into racing Pro Thunder, built up a competitive race bike over the course of four years, traveled all over the country, even brought in an ex WSBK professional rider only to have the AMAPR weasels spit in his face and kill the series. AMS Sucati has competed in AMA Pro Thunder since 1999, then AMAPR says we don't care about your efforts or your ability to compete, your series is cancelled, we will not let you compete in Supersport, but you can knowck yourself out running against vastly faster machines in Superstock if it trips your trigger.
Jeff is short sighted for wanting to take a year off of racing? What an asinine thing to say. Do you have any idea of the effort, investment, and dedication required to go after a national racing championship? Have you ever actually participated in motorcycle road racing? To clarify, BattleTrax is not road racing. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 09:00 am: |
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Kevin? I don't know why I wrote that, I meant Jeff, sorry.
There is nothing wrong with taking a year off or to decide not to race in the AMA anymore, that is up to him.
What is short sighted is to imply that he's out of a job because of what the AMA did, when he's got a perfectly valid option in the FUSA Sportibike and Superbike classes. His bike would be very competive in those classes if he chose to race FUSA.
Did you ask him why he will not race in FUSA? Did he even consider it and decide not to?
Sure, FUSA does not carry the "prestige" and Speedvision TV coverage that the AMA does, but it's great racing and having a competitive Ducati team in there with the rest of them will definelty help ticket sales.
FUSA Superbike will let the 250 GP bikes in too, so all the people complaining about he death of the AMA 250 GP class have a place to race if they wish.
Why cry about the bandwagon you got dropped from when there is another one that wants you on it just behind? Get on the new bandwagon! |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 09:10 am: |
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Quote:If you "think" that there will not be a 2004 GSXR750, you are not thinking too well. Does club racing mean anything to you? How about "displacement based insurance premiums"?
That's why they sell the 600cc version. There is no reason to build the 750cc bike other than the rules. The rules changed, so the bike will not be needed anymore. So it will be 600's and 1000's from now on.
Quote:I suppose Honda will drop the RC51/VTR1000SP too? They still sell the old Superhawk. Not every model of sporting motorcycle is predicated on a race specific purpose.
Yes, they will. For 2004, Honda will have a new 1000cc IL4, the RCB1000. This will be their new WSBK/AMA Superbike. I don't know if they will keep selling the RC51 street bike, but they definetly will not have a RC51 factory backed race effort in WSBK or AMA.
Kawasaki will come out with a ZX-10RR which will take the ZX-7RR's place in the Superbike classes
Yamaha will have an updated R1
Aprilia will have a new Mille. WSBK for sure in 2004, hopefully AMA too.
Ducati will do fine with their 999.
Wait until 2003 shakes out, the rules will not be exactly as they are currently proposed for either AMA or WSBK, they will tweak them based on what happens this year. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 09:27 am: |
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Blake:
Did you actually agree with me on something? I reloaded the page three times just to be sure! 
Spending Saturday at work, so no access to RRW and the new 2003 FUSA superbike rules. I think 640cc 4-cyl liq. cooled as you say, but what are the limits on other configs, such as air cooled two-valve four-cyl, oil-cooled 4-cyl, three cyl, and of course two-valve air cooled, pushrod & desmo. I think that FUSA rules are fairer, but they are written a little after-the-fact (ie bike's performance level pretty clearly known when rules written). I think that the potential for "cheating" is greater in AMA, which still carries more weight (PR wise) than FUSA (for how long remains to be seen). IF someone developed the theoretical super-pushrod-twin Armageddon, there would not be parity any more. In the interest of maintaining fairness, the bike would have to be made illegal soon after.
If a class is limited only by hp, many engine configurations may be used. But where do you set the limit? How about superbike rules that state "no more than 190rwhp and no less than 365 lb no-gas"? Oh, and has to be based on a streetbike manufactured in at least a quantity of 250. Then, how about a sub-class (SS?) with a 140RWHP limit, same weight? The original FUSA classes were nice, they ensured a season of nice, close racing. But, the bikes weren't "factory spec" either. With higher hp limits, the bikes might have to be closer to AMA superbike spec to be competetive. Sure, there still might be the guy who shows up with a 1.4L 'busa, but would he really have a shot?
I really can't think of a mechanical ruleset without a hp limit that would ensure parity AND allow for multiple engine configurations. Is there some magic formula of piston speed and valvetrain rpm that could be used?
I thought the current WSB rules were set to try to establish such parity, based on theoretical max piston speeds. (ie a twin at 1,000cc's and 5000 fpm would have the same "pumping" capability as a 750 four at 5000 fpm) But, Ducati (and subsequently honda) figured out that a short-stroke twin could be made to rev. Right now, the testatretta engines have a stroke of 58.8mm, and the ZX7R has 44.7mm. Lets say that Ducati can get a superbike engine to run at 5,000fpm avg piston speed, or 13,000 rpm. From what I've read, their shift points may be there or higher. To get to the same piston speed, the ZX would have to hit about 17,100 rpm. I think that's starting to get into pneumatic valve territory. When the rules were setup, though, the intent had been parity. But, another wall was hit instead, and the parity was gone.
That seems to have led the charge to allow 1000cc multi's, which (of course) will kill an equivalent twin in the same state of tune. So, how do you draw the line? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 09:47 am: |
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Quote:I also know that Ducati is darned unlikely to field a factory bike somewhere where they are unlikely to win a championship (aka AMA Superstock), which is probably having a significant influence on his choice to stay out.
Your logic would also apply for Supersport. If the difference is between finishing 11th in Supersport or 15th in Superstock, why bother?
If you take the race times from the Pikes Peak, Road America, Brainerd and Laguna Seca, convert them to seconds and figure out the intervals the First place finisher in the Pro Thunder Class would finish in the following spots in the other two classes:
| Supersport | Buell Pro Thunder | Superstock | | Pikes Peak (05/02) | | | | | Race time (sec.) | 1671.128 | 1695.85 | 1665.17 | | Interval | 24.722 | 0 | 30.68 | | Would finish | 12 | 1 | 16 | | | | | | Road America (06/02) | | | | | Race time (sec.) | 1369.162 | 1408.72 | 1365.66 | | Interval | 39.558 | 0 | 43.06 | | Would finish | 14 | 1 | 19 | | | | | | Brainerd (06/02) | | | | | Race time (sec.) | 1343.11 | 1360.521 | 1331.68 | | Interval | 17.411 | 0 | 28.841 | | Would finish | 10 | 1 | 16 | | | | | | Laguna Seca (7-11-14) | | | | | Race time (sec.) | 1547.981 | 1587.38 | 1548.781 | | Interval | 39.399 | 0 | 38.599 | | Would finish | 9 | 1 | 9 | | | | | | Average Finish | 11.25 | 1 | 15 |
Would they be more competitive in Supersport than in Superstock? Yes (there, Blake, I hope you are happy)
Would they be competitive enough to win the championship in either one? NO
Would they be competitive enough to win a race in either one? It could happen, anything is possible. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 10:00 am: |
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Now, here's an Idea that you can pass on to Jeff, Blake.
Let's say he decides to race in the Superstock Class this year at Daytona.
He sets up a webpage to get donations to sponsor his effort, and he gets a fair amount of money, enough to get Kirk back on the bike for one last race.
He goes down there does the qualifying and all that. As he lines up for the race on Saturday, he uncovers the sponsor stickers on his bike just before he grids, so the AMA officials don't see what it says.
As the race unfolds, the media at the speedway, which loves controversy, starts taking pictures and the SPeedvision cameras begin following Kirk's bike around the track as he fights for 15th place and they comment on the interesting name of his new sponsor, LET DUCATI IN AMA SUPERSPORT.COM, and the point that they are trying to make.
Once the AMA see's what's going on, they Black Flag Kirk for some obscure reason and make him take off the stickers. At that point they just roll back to their pits, pack up and leave. Or, they can hang around and get the fans to sign a petition to present to the AMA racing board, which Ducati is a member of, I believe.
Either way, the point has been made, it will be all over Speedvision and RRW, Cycle World and the rest of the Moto press. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 10:16 am: |
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THE 2003 FUSA Road Race Rules
Quote:6.11.14 Displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
SPORTBIKE (Expert Only at NATIONAL events)
Single cylinder, unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 800cc
Twin cylinder, air cooled, unlimited displacement
Three cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 980cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 640cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, up to 775cc
Quote:6.12.3- SuperBike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
SUPERBIKE (Expert Only at NATIONAL events)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Two stroke, liquid cooled, up to 320cc
Two stroke, air cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, less than 4 valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, 4 valve per cylinder, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, up to 980cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, up to 660cc
Four cylinder, air cooled, 2 valve, up to 1200cc
Quote:THUNDERBIKE
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Two stroke, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, non-desmodromic valves, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, non-fuel injected, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, air-cooled, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to 860cc
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement
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Benm2
| | Posted on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 10:36 am: |
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Thanks for the rules. Options for enterprising manufacturer who decides to sweep FUSA superbike next year:
a) Bored-out KZ1000J engine in ZX7R chassis. Cheap, dirty, parts available. Bottom end known to handle LOTS of power.
b) 3-liter single?
c) two-cyl, ohc, three-valve, liq. cooled, 1.8L. VTX? Convert to chain or borrow Guzzi setup, and wedge into RC51.
d) remove one exhaust valve per head from RC51 OR TL1000R (etc). Honda could probably make those heads pretty fast. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 12:00 am: |
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Ben,
There are other tech rules besides those governing displacement. Usually for supersport, superbike, and thunderbike classes the bike must have a production frame unaltered from stock form except strengthening gussets are allowed. Some classes even require a VIN on the frame. The GP classes allow the no holds barred type of innovation that you are thinking of. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 08:47 am: |
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It would be funny to try a CB750 Honda Nighthawk in the Thunderbike class, punched out to 1200cc and using a CBR954 fairing.
The problem with any of these is that you would spend so much time just getting the thing to run, when everybody else has is using well tested Sportbikes, that it would be hard to be competitive.
Would be fun to try. |
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