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Grndskpr
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 06:31 pm: | 
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Thanks for the tip Blake, i will give it a go
and yes i have a few more questions:
AMAPR wants to give all 1000cc bikes, no matter the number of cylinders, the same exact restrictions.
Are you sure this is true, i mean is it a fact because my understanding was that there were different rules depending on cylinders, what i mean by true is do you have a link or is this a PROPOSAL or???
Moto GP is not a streetbike based class
However it does offer street bikes based advancements, look at the new cbr 600 rr and the pro link rear suspension, 1 year from track to street, so there are some things that could cross over, more now that most bikes in moto gp are 4 strokes
Would you please remind me? What notable races have either of them won?
Euro equivalent of the BOT here in the states, kinda like your fusa series but with no hp restrictions, Won its first time out, and won several more races on its way to the BOT championship, really is a shame cancer took that man, i can only imagine what the man would have made for the street, and really Mr. Buell should go talk to his widow, show her what he has created(more the passion than the bike) maybe he could ask her for the design, that would be very cool( at least in my imagination which i am sure it will remain)
I HOPE so. But unfortunately, if the Proton 500cc 2-stroke effort is any indication, the answer is no.
Was it 500cc?? for some reason i thought it was less, but i could be confused with Aprilla, i thought one of them was 400 twin
KR took advantage of the weight rules, and since the 250's were getting close to the 500's on lap times, he thought a smaller more controllable bike could win races, his lack of podiums this year was due in part to his concentration on the new motor and fine tuning of the chassis, so i really dont think this is a fair statement, by all accounts KR has done much with little and deserves a little more respect than that
No motorcycle with the massive VRod engine could ever be considered a "Sport Bike". And like Rick so astutely points out. In the modern era, it was Buell, not HD, who put the cruiser engine into a sport bike
I dont think that is fair, the vrod motor could be trimed down and used in a sport bike, i mean its not as wide as a 1200cc 4(i dont really know, i will have to take a good look at it at the next brag meeting), i realize the buell deal, but since its owned by HD, its HD, i use the terms equally, and until i have a reason to do differently i will continue to due it, kinda like yamakawihonsuzki AKA jap daddies
The basic technology withing the Buell engine is no older than that comprising the Japanese engines
Now come on Blake, this is an unfair statement and you know it, engine technology within any engine is the same, outside of turbines, please stick to the subject
The Buell XB9 engine is one of the most advanced aircooled motorcycle engines ever made. It cost a substantial investment to design, test, and manufacture. It did not fall of a tractor into a motorcycle with 92BHP and a 7,500 rpm rev limit. Harley was racing four valve OHC engines back in the twenties. Talk about old technology.
I am pretty sure it is the most advanced air cooled/pushrod motor around, however i was under the impression that while its cost to design the motor, it cost less to make than a new motor because it was made on the same tooling as the old engine, maybe what i am wondering is, is it really a new motor or just a redesigned sportster motor destine for a sportster \
As long as it can be competitive, YES.
i guess i need your definition of competitive, like is a 750 ss bike competitive in superbike, i say no, but the grids last year were full of them, so what does competitive mean to you??
Would they be competitive in AMA SS? Answer... No. They could never even make the grid.
but if you changed the rules, allowed unlimited displacment for air cooled singles with no restriction it might, kinda like CCS or wera, what do you think, fully backed factory effort from India, no i dont think its silly at all
"750cc fours and 1000cc twins race competitively now.
this statement is far from true at a world level, tell me in WSBK, can you name the last il4 that won the whole ball of wax and what year it was |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:34 pm: |
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The V-Rod motor can't be "trimmed down" without a major redesign. I've seen it's innards...it's big 'cause it was built that way from the inside out. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 05, 2003 - 10:36 pm: |
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It's a cruiser motor...unlike our super sporty Buells  |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:04 am: |
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Do you know for what the "A" in NASCAR stands?
Well it sure isnt american.
Hint...its association. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 12:07 am: |
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I just wanted to
be like CJ |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:11 am: |
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JQ,
So now you want to only let riders that can compete on par with the very top riders of SS/SBK to be able to compete in SS?  Or by showing the lap times from not only two different races but two different riders to boot are you trying to show me that a 600cc IL4 motorcycle is actually faster than a more powerful 750cc IL4 motorcycle? Quick JQ, get the hell out of DC! The democrats have assimilated your mind! LOL!
I don't know what caused the slow average lap times for the Superstock race at Daytona. But an average lap time is a poor indicator of relative bike performance as is comparing average race lap times between two very different riders of significantly It is certainly in NO WAY a reflection of the true relative capabilities of the bikes, of that I am certain. Here is perhaps some more pertinent information, you know, the kind not intended solely to support a ridiculous assertion. Compare the times of competitors that qualified for both SS and SSTK on 600cc and 750cc machines respectively. Or even compare the times of the 1st place SS and SSTK qualifiers. Either way, you will see that 750cc Superstock bikes are on the whole significantly faster than the 600cc SS bikes. DUH!! Imagine that. I cannot friggin' believe that you actually needed me to PROVE that to you.
AMAPR Qualifying Lap Times, Daytona 03/02
| SSTK | SSTK | SS | SS | Difference | | Name | Bike | Best Lap | Bike | Best Lap | Slower by… | | STEVE RAPP | SUZ 750 | 01:52.4 | SUZ 600 | 01:58.3 | 00:05.9 | | JORDAN M SZOKE | SUZ 750 | 01:52.8 | SUZ 600 | 01:57.5 | 00:04.7 | | LARRY PEGRAM | SUZ 750 | 01:53.1 | SUZ 600 | 01:58.3 | 00:05.2 | | JIMMY MOORE | SUZ 750 | 01:53.6 | SUZ 600 | 01:57.5 | 00:03.9 | | LEE ACREE | SUZ 750 | 01:54.2 | SUZ 600 | 01:58.3 | 00:04.1 | | TY HOWARD | SUZ 750 | 01:56.1 | SUZ 600 | 01:59.3 | 00:03.2 | | JOHN A ASHMEAD | SUZ 750 | 01:56.2 | SUZ 600 | 01:57.5 | 00:01.3 |
Superstock bikes are WAY faster than SS bikes. Your point is asinine. Superstock bikes are faster than SS bikes. They have a 25% displacement advantage. They are WAY faster machines. No amount of hand waving or obfuscation will change that. Let's put you on an RC211V and Yates on a 600RR and let you run laps around Daytona. From that exercise, using your logic, the 600RR must be a faster machine than the RC211V.
"I am truly wasting my time if you don't bother reading what I write Blake."
You are the one wasting MY time with your flawed logic. But I wouldn't reply if I thought you were a complete lost cause. You are an engineer right? There must be a spot of logic in your brain somewhere that I can reach. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:14 am: |
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Dyna,
Thanks for the correction. |
Featheredfiend
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:28 am: |
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I don't follow racing to the measure some do but arguing for a place for Ducati in Supersport is a bit odd considering their lack of involvement in World Supersport - and that IS where they like to play. The 748 is not competitive with the current crop of 600's. It's doubtful that the 749 will change that. There are no 749's in the World Supersport field.
Feathered |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:53 am: |
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Feather,
I'm disappointed to see for 2003 the lack of a Ducati in the FIM SS field. Small company with tight cashflow, they chose to go after SBK and Moto GP instead. Doesn't mean the 749R couldn't be competitive. It certainly could be. At least with FIM, if they want to race in SS they can. With AMAPR, they cannot. And that is the issue. Not that one bike might be a championship shoe-in or an underdog, but that they be allowed to race rather than being excluded from the class in which they belong. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 07:51 am: |
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The V-Rod motor can't be "trimmed down" without a major redesign. I've seen it's innards...it's big 'cause it was built that way from the inside out.
Why is it so big??? Is the 1000cc twin built by honda or Ducati that big, i dont think it is, i thought there was some advantage to there narowness, seems odd, almost backwards 
I'm disappointed to see for 2003 the lack of a Ducati in the FIM SS field. Small company with tight cashflow, they chose to go after SBK and Moto GP instead
They are not going after SBK, just staying in it because they feel they need to at this point, when they want to really try and win they will field more than one rider and one team, they do however want Moto gp, i mean really, its been years since they have been in moto GP and now they have 2 riders, it will be an interesting year to come |
Featheredfiend
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 10:19 am: |
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Blake,
Ducati races to win. The 749, as it exists today, is uncompetitive in FIM SS. It is uncompetitive in AMA SS. Even if it were to be allowed in the AMA SS I would be suprised to see anyone enter due to the large cash outlay for development. As a David among Goliaths, Ducati is content to bet 749 sales on the success of the 999. Not a bad strategy with the demands of GP and WSB.
Ducati is certainly going after WSB this year as they did last year and all the years since '88. This year will have Hodgson and Xaus on factory rides. And, yes, they will be "really try(ing)".
Feathered |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 11:56 am: |
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If it was only a drag race, of course the 750 is faster than the 600. I have never claimed that.
But we're talking road racing here, and that involves a lot more than engine size, Blake. The rider and the team is part of the equation, you can't remove that.
Of course the same rider should be able to go faster on a 750 than a 600 at the same track. Common sense and the the lap times show that.
However, a very good rider on a 600 can and has beaten good riders on 750's at the same track. The race results show that.
Tommy Hayden won the 750 Superstock races at Laguna Seca and VIR and finished second in the final points standings in the 750 Superstock class, on his 600.
My point all along has been that there is a major difference in talent between the Supersport teams and the Superstock teams.
If you want to believe that there is no difference in rider and team talent between the 600 and the 750 classes, go ahead, but it does not reflect reality.
I thought Buell liked "grass roots" racing?
If they do, then they should be happy to race in Superstock, which is much more "grass roots" than Supersport.
Again, IF Buell decides to race AMA this year, let them get competitive in Superstock first, then worry about Supersport.
Until then this is all wishful thinking on your part. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 01:44 pm: |
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Blake:
Please don't presume to guess my position as a "layman". You've no idea what I do or don't do on a day-to-day basis, and your implication that I am a "layperson" carries no more weight than my implication that you represent yourself as an insufferable fool.
If people on this very board (and elsewhere) have produced stock-displacement engines that put out nearly 130 RWHP at 7500 rpm, then why is my assessment that a new 1200cc pushrod engine could develop 160rwhp at 10,000rpm? At no point did I mention number of valves, stroke configuration or anything else, only that it be pushrod.
WRT the AMA being different than AMA Pro Racing, you knew what the hell I meant, don't be so juvenile. Unless you've personal proof of payola, keep quiet. You seem to be flatly saying that AMA officials have accepted bribes.
"So what you are saying is that superbike and Supersport should become a "spec" racing series where a specific engine configuration is mandated? Because that is exactly what the rules if modified as proposed for 2004 will do. The HD special homologation issue took place YEARS ago. I do not agree with changing the rules to benefit anyone, but if they are going to be altered for the benefit of one factory, I'd much rather see it be an AMERICAN factory. You? "
I'd rather the rules be absolutely flat, with as FEW special stipulations as possible, with the best TEAM winning. And, I'd rather the rules NOT favor an american factory, as it would make any victories hollow ones.
The limitations on the allowed modifications to 1000cc fours in WSB are "step one", more are likely to follow. The FIM doesn't want the SBK series to be a one-brand race, and the other organizations won't play without changes. Hence, no factory yamaha, honda, or kawasaki teams in SBK this year.
"That is for the all out no holds barred Moto GP series. But guess what, even moto GP recognizes the disparity between different engines. They allow bikes with fewer cylinders a significantly ower minimum weight restriction. AMAPR wants to give all 1000cc bikes, no matter the number of cylinders, the same exact restrictions. Make sense to you? "
Is THAT why so many teams are building twins for GP?! Hmm, nope, they all seem to be fours & fives. Why? Because other methods of determining equity are sketchy. Maybe they can screw around with it for a few years, adding and subtracting pounds based on how the bike does in the first few races!? Heck, if Valentino had to carry two-hundred extra pounds, maybe there could be a firebolt GP team!
"Newsflash! Ducati IS a racing company. Everyone familiar with motorcycle racing knows that Ducati is a racing company."
Gosh, really? Do you think Ducati's a racing company? I hear they are.
"I doubt it. That is akin to implying that the latest Ferrari F1 engine will appear in a production car. Moto GP is not a streetbike based class."
Know any other company that makes a car with a 3.5 liter v8 that's got an 8500rpm redline? The link is there. If Ducati makes a four streetbike, it will of the same quality as the existing 999 series. As we know thanks to your edification, Ducati IS a racing company. How good do you think their bike would be?
My original text:
"Or, alternately, they will whine that their existing configuration needs to be allowed unlimited displacement so as to compete against the unfair Japanese juggernaut."
your response:
"Nope, not in Moto GP. It is not a streetbike based class. It is 100% high dollar no holds barred factory racing at its best. "
Perhaps I should annotate sarcasm with a warning label? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
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All in all, I think racing should be a sport about the best riders and closely matched machines, period...not what type of machine a rider is crouched on. I feel bikes should be paired by performance...and that's that. Ideally you could dyno all competitor's bikes and have the classes based on power/weight ratios and the degree of specialized chassis modification. Now that'd be fair racing! |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:06 pm: |
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All in all, I think racing should be a sport about the best riders and closely matched machines, period...not what type of machine a rider is crouched on.
Auto racing does that, its call I.R.O.C & I personally find it kinda dull. I like diversity & may the best man & or machine win. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:08 pm: |
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"I feel bikes should be paired by performance...and that's that. Ideally you could dyno all competitor's bikes and have the classes based on power/weight ratios and the degree of specialized chassis modification. Now that'd be fair racing!"
That's FUSA, in a nutshell. I can see, though, how it could stifle development. What do you do when your bike's at the limits? Yes, the racing is closer, but where's the impetus to develop the "unfair advantage" that ALL racers really want? |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 03:40 pm: |
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It sounds like we should re-organize Wrestling matches too.
Classes should be bassed upon how much you can bench press, not how much you weigh.
We shouldn't penelize the slow fat kids for not being in shape,.. I'm mean how can we expect them to compete aginst the gifted kids. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:01 pm: |
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There would be a LOT MORE diversity, Dyna...as any type make model year configuration and level of motor modification bike can race with any other of the same power to weight ratio and basic level of chassis modification. Is that so bad?
This way slow fat kids can be right at home running with others of their type, and even mix it up competitively with small, spindly, weak, really out of shape kids...and any kids in between
The amount pressed should not be the ultimate measure...it's how much you bench for your bodyweight that counts. That is how you define true strength.
Under the rules above...fine tuning under the class is where the advantages can be made...and if you get an "unfair" advantage or want to go to the next level you could always move up a class and mix it up with the bigger dogs.
I think what racing should really be about is the best rider winning...not necessarily the best machine.
Every organization should have an unlimited class, though...'cause it's cool to see how wild bikes can get. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:02 pm: |
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A winner doesn't make excuses,... a winner figures out what he needs to do to win... and does it. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:07 pm: |
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...and wrestling matches are actually setup very similarly. Generally, skill is what wins.
...and professional wrestling is a ridiculous farce to begin with! |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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...and professional wrestling is a ridiculous farce to begin with!
What???!!! You mean the Rock & Stone cold arent really hitting each other with fence posts covered in barbed wire??? Blasphemy I say, burn the heretic!!! |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:18 pm: |
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I agree Jssport...in an extreme example...what's a guy on a single cylinder pushrod motored bike to do against a V-5 MotoGP bike? He needs a place to race, too, don't he? |
Cjmblast
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:37 pm: |
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...and professional wrestling is a ridiculous farce to begin with!
Damn they LOOK good though !!!!
CJM  |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:51 pm: |
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Ducati is certainly going after WSB this year as they did last year and all the years since '88. This year will have Hodgson and Xaus on factory rides. And, yes, they will be "really try(ing)".
Actually i was lead to beleive that Xaus had moved over to Aprilla SBK along with some one else i can not at this time remember, Haga moved up to Aprilla moto gp, Hodgsen moved over from the brit back team to a full on factory DUcati ride, and Collin was suppose to join him, but was offered a spot on the aprilla moto gp team so as it comes out Ducati has one rider, who is good but not great in SBK, and a great rider in Moto GP, before they had 3 factory rides, that leads me to beleive that SBK is not there primary objective, but you must interpret that differently, again this year has been odd, so i wouldnt doubt it if i was wrong, or if others had signed contracts when i wasnt looking, but i just got this months RRW, so i will see what is being said |
Featheredfiend
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 05:37 pm: |
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Roger,
What I said before. As for Hodgson being "good but not great"... Applesauce. The Brit rode some terrific races last year on a machine many would consider not prepared to the level of Bayliss' ride. He will be The rider to beat now that he has secured, by his talent, the top ride.
Feathered |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 05:49 pm: |
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Then he races local club races and has great time,... as he knew when he bought this single cyl machine, there are no premier classes for it.
He will compete locally against others like him,.. and go to the AMA nationals to watch the big dogs run.
"...what's a guy on a single cylinder pushrod motored bike to do against a V-5 MotoGP bike? He needs a place to race, too, don't he?" |
Jssport
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 05:51 pm: |
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Or he will will complain, you know if they knocked 4 cyl's off that new honda, and limited it to 2 gears, we could run against him,... but those damn fools at AMA pro racing have it in for me.... |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:12 pm: |
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JQ,
Are you saying that any racing team wanting to compete in AMAPR SS should first have to qualify to prove their ability to run competitive lap times? Or are you saying that they should have to be able to match the lap times of some of the world's best SS racers before being allowed to race?
Ben,
1. Please show me evidence of a stock displacement Buell that makes 130 RWHP. Who's the fool now? 
2. Say what you mean instead of faulting others who fail to accurately read your mind.
3. I do not know what you mean by "I'd rather the rules be absolutely flat." Sounds like a spec racing series to me, not a fair and equitable streetbike based competition like is proffered by AMAPR. AMAPR says one thing and does another.
4. Do you really know WHY some manufacturers are not competing in WSBK or are you assuming that you know? Have you considered that even the Japanese factories have limited resources and budgets, that maybe they chose GP over SBK since they could not support both with brand new racing machines in each? Could the mass exodus of all the WSBK's top riders to Moto GP have anything to do with it?
5. No twins in Moto GP that I know of, but Aprilia is fielding a triple, others have four cylinders, others have five. They all have different weight restrictions. Gee, imagine that.
6. Sarcasm in print is always obvious. How could I have missed yours?
7. Inferring that you are a "layman" in the field of high performance racing engines was an assumption I made based upon your prior statements here. The term layman was not meant as an insult unlike calling someone an "insufferable fool."
8. Suffer or leave. Your choice entirely. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:54 pm: |
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If a manufacturer builds a liquid cooled 1,000cc V8 streetbike that makes 220 RWHP in race form, should it be allowed to compete in SBK? It would represent the peak technology of the day? If it is available to the common squid on the street, and properly homologated, why not let it compete with no special restrictions against the four cylinder liter bikes? According to the logic offered here by some, it should be.
What would be the effect? Answer, it would totally dominate, rendering all other configurations of engine obsolete. It would violate the spirit and stated intent of AMA Superbike racing.
Quote:In (the 2003 AMA Pro Racing Rulebook), you'll find rules designed to create a level playing field for all competitors, so that the best and brightest can continue to rise to the top, as they
have for more than three- quarters of a century.
Sincerely,
Merrill Vanderslice
Director of Competition,
AMA Pro Racing
Allowing literbike fours the same level of performance upgrades as the liter twins egregiously violates the states intent of AMA Pro Racing's Superbike Series as it will constitute a very biased and crooked playing field in great favor of competitors fielding four cylinder bikes over those fielding two or three cylinder bikes. It also totally disregards those teams wishing to continue to field their current 800cc four cylinder machines.
It is just a proposal at this point, but it shows clearly the focus of AMAPR. That focus is clearly NOT to "create a level playing field for ALL competitors." To continue to claim so is a farce and a sham. They need to adopt a new name commensurate with their aims in motorcycle racing. The same goes for the FIM. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:05 pm: |
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Blake:
1. Said "nearly 130". Looked before I wrote it, Manley cycles tech page has a stock displ. two-carb buell at 123hp. That's close to 130 (well, maybe I rounded up a little too much. 125 would have been a better "nearly"
2. You have referred to AMA Pro Racing as simply the AMA in some of your previous posts.
3. 4-cylinders, 750cc's seems pretty open to me. There is much room for different engines there.
4. Which came first? My recollection is that first there was a push to allow for 1000cc fours in sbk as the 750 fours were getting beaten badly. The mass exodus seemed to coincide with BOTH the creation of a new 4-stroke GP class AND the proposed new rules that were not seen as generous enough to 1000cc fours.
5. Which one's winning? If the weight setup as it is now is fair, then why is Proton building a v5? How many GP races did Aprilia place in last year?
7. My disagreeing with you does not provide you with more qualifications.
"If a manufacturer builds a liquid cooled 1,000cc V8 streetbike that makes 220 RWHP in race form, should it be allowed to compete in SBK? It would represent the peak technology of the day? If it is available to the common squid on the street, and properly homologated, why not let it compete with no special restrictions against the four cylinder liter bikes? According to the logic offered here by some, it should be. "
According to others, a pushrod air cooled 984cc streetbike represents an equal acheivement, and should be allowed in supersport. |
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