| Author | Message | ||
     Stormfool |
Today has been rife with the viscitudes of Buell ownership. To ride a freshly rebuilt bike in near-perfect tune. Down by the blustery shore to stop for a smoke and gaze upon the beast. To pull away exhaust note booming--only to sputter and stutter die and surge and finally the dread Engine Trouble Light... Then to coast and wait and hope she makes it home. As most of us fated to ride the Fuel-injected versions have found, a little jumper to read trouble codes from the engine light on the tach is a handy thing. I got four seperate codes: TPS bad or out of calibration/Fuel pump out of spec or grounded/IAT bad or shifted calibration/Oxygen Sensor Bad. After limping home without the light coming on again I began troubleshooting. First off I was not about to accept all those things going bad at once and I found one item that connected at least two of the troubled devices:the Power Commander. I disconnected the gizmo but to no avail the engine light came on with little provocation and the engine would barely idle--popping and sputtering as it revved. This time it repeated the same codes as before. I changed the installed Race ECU out with the original Stock ECU and it ran fine--not apparently a fuel pressure problem or a sensor problem--though I maintained my suspicions about the fuel pump. A test ride revealed the stock ECU was not supporting the gutted airbox/race pipe with enough juice and the spark seemed less advanced based on seat-of-the-pants. Reattached the Power Commander since I now figured the Race ECU was he culprit. Tried a quick ride with the map from the dyno (made for the Race ECU) but it didn't feel good at all.One of the maps that came with the software claimed to be for stock ECU/Race pipe Hi-Perf O2 sensor. Uploaded that from laptop to Powercommander. Much better. Went for a ride thinking at last I've got my bike back on the road--sure enough Engine Trouble Light--I'm about two exits down from my neighborhood so I sputter and stutter to a gas station and begin taking the tank off for the fifth, sixth time. It's now dark--I've been trying to go for a leisurely ride since around 11am. Anyway the trouble code now says I have a bad rear injector and a bad O2 sensor--which again I have trouble believing since the Power Commander intercepts both of those. I inspect the cables and connections and reconnect each injector lead carefully and make sure everythings right--having no stock O2 sensor handy I would have to leave the Power Commander attached to get home. Limp back to the garage set up the flourescents take the tank off for the seventh time--disconnect all the Power Commander stuff again some more. Put it all back together. Fires up fine--no Engine Trouble light. Just got back from a hundred mile ride down to South Beach (from Boca Raton) and checked the plugs (light tan) tailpipe (deep brown) oil (warm, no smell of fuel). I guess it'll be okay for now. But I guess I could have a faulty injector, IAT sensor, Oxygen Sensor, fuel pump as well as a malfunctioning (6 month-old) Race ECU and malfuntioning (3 month-old) Power Commander. The Oxygen Sensor for the Power Commander set up is likewise fairly new, but maybe? All I know is that the bike is running pretty okay minus about $500 of "go-fast" electronics. ($700 factoring in the $200 Dyno Mapping Session) but not as Sublime as those first few miles before the gremlins found me again. At this point the engine trouble light has remained OFF for at least 125 miles--a record for the day and with that I'll have to do...$200 for another Race ECU that may only last six months is on the way back burner of my things-to-do. | ||
| Sportsman |
You are not alone my friend, and it is deffinitly a humbeling, aggravating experience. Though my street X1 has been trouble free, my track bike tends to have a problem now and then. In one case a poorly seated intake valve caused the box to send the fuel parameter to 130%. I guess the O2 sensor picked up a lean condition. Anyway, I think the only cure for your problem is a GOOD dealership that really knows the box. 1 problem seems to send the whole works berserk. It may be mechanical and the box is trying to compensate or it may be as simple as a bad ground. Put your best go fast goodies back on and let them click away. Or hopefully a real smart box guy will chime in. | ||
| Stormfool |
A box on a box is what I've got. One completely adjustable box is all I need. However I am unaware of any manufacturer of such a unit (that would replace the Buell ECU entirely--plug'n'play). What I've seen out there requires either rewiring to the product or several products operating in conjunction(spark/fuel/mixture) Anybody know different? | ||
| Ccryder |
Just my gut feel says it's the Power Commander. The PC tries to fool the whole system. With out knowing your engine mods it's difficult to tell if the PC is being fooled or just can't compensate for your mods. Wes and Pammy at Cycle-Rama have dealt with the PC fairly sucessfully, maybe give them a call or if your on the FL East coast, stop by. Later Neil (color me envious you can at least try and ride we're at 22deg and waiting for 2-5" of the white stuff, no not sand.) | ||
| Apex1 |
My experience has been that the Buell Race ECM can store & send historical trouble codes although a real & present problem does not exist. These codes must be erased or a reocurring engine light & the sputter/ stutter described above may result. Furthermore, a battery on it's last leg may also cause the bike to go into convulsions with the engine light illuminated. My previous 00 X1 went through 3 batteries in 2 years. | ||
| Mikej |
I like my carb. | ||
| Robr |
Apex1 is right on about the past trouble codes, although there is a break in the flashes that diferentiates between present and past codes. Also right on about the bad battery, but check also the grounds especially the strap by the swingarm. Rob | ||
| Rempss |
Stormfool, I have recorded some of my experience with the PCIII here; some posts continue on that page after that one, scroll down. A bit more here. When your Race ECM was installed was the TPS reset according to the service manual? (We all know what this actually means, but I'll call it "by the book" for now.) Might explain how the stock ECM solved most of the problems. Was the TPS set for the PCIII? (A function in the PC program and completely separate from the Race ECM procedure.) I experienced some failures similar to yours. It is now time to follow the flow charts and either include or remove each trouble code item from the problem / failure list. There is one ground (or power, I cannot remember right now at the office) that will set a bunch of the trouble codes, it supplies ground (or power) to all. It's mentioned in the manual. I did have several O2 sensor failures due to an extreme rich situation, removed it and was able to salvage one or two of them once or twice with a good cleaning (propane torch method). What modifications are you tying to compensate for? The Race ECM takes care of quite a bit of modification without outside interference, no issues with mine. I found the PCIII to be a waste of time and money. If you like it and it works for you, great, it did not for me and many others posting similar stories here and elsewhere. (Ever notice how many used ones for Buells find their way to eBay?) Sportsman, Dynojet does not even know their "box" when it comes to communicating with the Buell DDFI. I have logged much time discussing this with their tech department and it always boils down to "must be something unique to you and your bike alone". If I understand your post, the PCIII (if that is the "box" you speak of) did not run you to 130%, the ECM did, it sent 100% of what it determined you needed and the PCIII added 30% based on the map you had loaded. Stormfool, What are you trying to compensate for? Your profile is blank. It has to be a lot if the Race ECM cannot take care of it. There are many systems out there that could be adapted to a 2 cylinder engine, but I cannot see what they would bring to the table unless your mods are exceptional. It is not an easy plug-in task. I have put together several monster EFI systems for automobile engines, but they needed some real adjustability way beyond what the stock ECM could handle - my most recent is a GM 3800 Series II that went from 6psi max boost (supercharged) to 22psi max, with NO2, raised compression 2 points... man what a fun car to drive, still has heated seats. Neil, My gut tells me it's the PC and possibly the TPS function in the ECM. May have created an O2 problem. The PCIII does not trick any of the sensors on the Buell, it takes the output fuel injector signal from the ECM, adds or subtracts based on the "map" you have loaded. It does not have any 3D or learned "maps", just a simple + or - spreadsheet. Apex1, For sure with the battery, it makes very weird stuff happen. The ECM holds historic trouble codes for 50 run cycles (on run 30+ seconds, off). I have not found any correlation between historic codes and current codes. My experience has been the light only light when an out of spec condition exists right now. Remember, that when the jumper wire method is used even if the TPS sets the light 50 times it will only "read" once then it reads in numerical (according to the code number) order. Mikej, And miss all this fun? No way! Robr, The Scanalyzer will separate current and historic codes, but I have not seen this work with the jumper wire method. Please let me know how this is shown. (Not mentioned in the manual.) Jeff | ||
| Jdbuellx1 |
Many, many problems with my PC, popping, stalling, dead spots, engine light, then I removed it and all problems are gone. | ||
| Sportsman |
When I said box I meant the ECM, my power commander is shelved. Todd said 130%, and he knew how to fix it with a scanalyzer so I don't care, it runs right now. But look at all the box-uh- ECM smart guys that piped up. Very cool. | ||
| Stormfool |
Thanks for the input Reep and all... I have checked for a bad ground, etc. No I don't have anything out of the ordinary other than a gutted airbox, K&N race filter/Buell ProRace headers&muffler. (Oh and a Race ECU). Contrary to many of the negative responses I have heard, after having Cyclerama creat a custom map for the PC on the Dyno I picked up several FtLbs and HP throughout the entire range--only peak HP did not change--but the bottom and mid were substantially improved (wiggles gone from Dyno chart.) So there it is in Blue and Red. Proof positive that the PC will improve performance over the Race ECU regardless of all the sage commentary by those who shall remain ANONYMOUS... After the rebuild the PC map was not altered but the bike was run on the dyno again just to check the A/F curve--which was dead straight. I know Buell in their wisdom did their best to creat a "one size fit's all" as far as their ECU's (stock and race) go--but when you install a PC and tune it on a dyno and get an improvement what else is ther to say? And yes I had the TPS reset (reflashed) by the book. Due to an extended issue with drivability I have had the bike over to the Buell shop and on the scanner to check that and the AFV as well as other things so often the techs are actually getting good at it  I believe that a voltage spike from a bad regulator(since replaced) may have damaged both of the "boxes" but why they continued to function for several hundred miles (after regulator was replaced) and then fail just after a topend rebuild is still puzzling... I will try cleaning the Hi-Perf O2 sensor with a torch--hadn't heard of that. I will be using only a Race ECU at this point as I am in no hurry to buy more gizmos that last only a few months...so the Hi-Perf sensor will just be yet another packratted item (too good to throw away!) | ||
| Stormfool |
Meant Rempss not reep--solly | ||
| Rempss |
Since I referenced this thread, I'll add. I would not disagree the PCIII "MAY" (I will not go so far as to say "will" ) add HP & torque, but it seems detrimental to the rideability of the bike. Seems like these are the standard critical comments on the unit. The Buell DDFI and the Race ECM to a larger degree has a three dimensional mapping system that allows for real time adjustment to the air/fuel and timing curves. This is based on sensor feedback, I don't know how much more advanced the concept can get. (Though the software & hardware could get a bit more advanced) Yes, it is one size fits all, and then it changes to fit the differences. Very scary stuff. Hope ditching the PCIII works out well for you. - To torch clean an O2 sensor, handle carefully so as not to kill/burn/hurt yourself and try to sue me. (Safety glasses, gloves, water bucket close by etc.) - Heat the tip to glowing cherry red, let cool for a minute or two repeat. - Attach a multimeter (positive to output lead, negative to ground wire or O2 housing for a 1 wire unit) in the proper range, will read 0-1v, heat again while reading the meter it should increase in value until about .9v+- or so, take the heat away, if it drops low quickly (.2 or so) add heat again and it should steadily raise to .9v+- again. This is a good working sensor, no need to change. If it passes this test it is still good, no matter the mileage. The trick is making sure it reads fast enough, you will see if it does after a little experimenting. I used to run through many sensors while building my last car. Learned this trick from a Standard Motor Products rep (best quality O2 sensor I have come across for all applications, they make the Dynojet 4 wire unit, #SG27 if I remember correctly). Bosch may have them outsold, but quality sometimes comes at a premium cost. Jeff |
