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Rudebike
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:40 pm: | 
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Benm2 wrote:
"Generally speaking, these discussions certainly provide for lively debate. There are people who are very opinionated, and who freely speak their mind regarding those opinions. In my book, that's a good thing. If you don't have an interest in the details of the discussion, then don't read them. Please, though, let's all try NOT to resort to name-calling."
Your joking, right? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:48 pm: |
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2-strokes have come a long way. I read a test of a 500cc GP bike that a magazine had put the minimum lighting and a plate on...used it or a daily commute for a while and found that it was actually pretty tractable and smooth through the power range as a streetbike. Don't recall the mag...I'm sure someone else must've come across it. Using modern technology and proper tuning...I can believe a 1000cc 2-stroke can be made rideable. The original statement seemed to have a completely different purpose, anyway. How much power is too much, though?
...and I don't think anybody is really defending the aircooled pushrod motor...I think it's safe to assume that most of us are simply stating our preference and the fact that racing should have rules giving all configurations a level playing field instead of the exclusivity found in the "premier" organization/classes here in the US.
personally, I don't care what the AMA does. They're not the only playing field. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:00 pm: |
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Quote:Lornce, old buddy, there were more grenaded Ducati motors last year than Buell ones...
Looking at the 2002 AMA Pro Thunder results archive, you would not reach that conclusion.
The results do not show which engines "grenaded" but they do show what brand was more likely to finish a race.
If you count DNF (Did not Finish) for the five Pro Thunder races last year, it was a tie, 2 each.
If you look at the number of bikes that started each race for each brand, and the number of bikes for each brand that finished at least half of the total laps, you would find that a Buell was twice as likely to not finish than a Ducati bike:
9 out of 35 Buell racebikes did not finish at least half of the laps, or 26%, compared to 9 out of 67 Ducati racebikes, or 13%.
Now that's for all the Ducati and Buell teams that entered. Now we know that there were really only four teams that had a chance of winning a Pro Thunder race last year: the Tilley and Hal's Buell teams, and the Advanced Motors and the Munroe Motors Team. Here's what the results archive shows:
100% of the Advanced Motorsports Ducati sponsored bikes finished at least half of the total race laps.
88% of the Munroe Motorsports Ducati sponsored bikes finished at least half of the total race laps.
80% of the Hals Buell sponsored bikes finished at least half of the total race laps.
50% of the Tilley Buell sponsored bikes finished at least half of the total race laps.
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Quote:And, unfortunately, the average sportbike buyer does think that Aaron Yates' GSXR is the same as his street bike!
So that's what the average buyer is BUYING.
Quote:but sportbikes live and die by it.
And that's the crux of the question: Does Buell consider itelf a sportbike or a quick cruiser? If they want to play in the sportbike market, they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, racing rules included, no special breaks.
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The problem with bringing up two strokes at this point is that AMA and WSBK are PRODUCTION based race series, so no two strokes would be eligible under their rules anyway.
Now WSBK is interesting, because they are dealing with the same issues as the AMA and doing it using intake restrictors for their Superbike class. We'll see if their approach works.
In WSBK Supersport, their 600 class, Ducati 748 machines are allowed.
Now someone could say, see the AMA is putting them in the wrong class, they should be in the Supersport class instead of the Superstock class like WSBK does.
This would be true if the WSBK Superstock, their other support class, was like AMA Superstock and limited IL4's to 750cc's.
However, WSBK Superstock allows up to 1000cc Vtwins and IL4's.
So it makes sense for WSBK to let the Ducati 748's in to their Supersport class because they would have no hope in their 1000cc Superstock class.
The AMA decided to place the Ducati 749's and Buells in the 750 cc Superstock class, because the equipment and talent level is closer to the Pro Thunder teams than the AMA 600cc Superstock class. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:09 pm: |
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Dyna,
This might help:
Data from R.L. Polk & Co. (www.polk.com), an automotive and truck information provider that tracks motorcycle registration counts, suggests that the most stolen motorcycles are also the most driven motorcycles. CCC's data showed that over 94 percent of all theft is represented by five motorcycle manufacturers - Honda, Yamaha, Harley-Davidson, Suzuki and Kawasaki. R.L. Polk & Co.'s National Vehicle Population Profile® (NVPP®) data as of July 1, 2001 confirms the consumer popularity with these makes, as the same five manufacturers represent over 90 percent of all motorcycle registrations. Also, BMW motorcycles accounted for less than one percent of theft; similarly, R.L. Polk's data shows that BMW motorcycles account for less than two percent of registered bikes on the road. "The bikes that are most popular with consumers tend to be very popular with thieves," Prigge added. |
Srl
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:45 pm: |
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The factories know that racing (especially something the buyer can equate to his cycle) means sales. We may not see the studies but they have surely been done. Winning means fan base even if it's someone buying a 600 Katana because KRJr wins a championship.
Face it, the factories love MotoGP for the competition and show of technology but the business side makes WSB a necessity. Race attendance for WSB soars above MotoGP and the teams cost a fraction to run. These race fans and their disposable income are the sales target. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:46 pm: |
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Rudebike:
Of course I'm joking, you dumb-ass.
Ben |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 05:08 pm: |
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I had already found that Jose, but it thats stolen bikes & just because a study "suggests" something does not always make it correct. They claim the most stolen bikes are the most ridden. Actually I believe the most stolen ones are the ones which can be parted out & sold easily for a quick & tidy profit. Only 1 Harley cracked the top 25. Does that suggest that Harleys are popular? That they dont sell very many? No it suggests that market for stolen Harley parts is probably not very viable. Cops tend to look a little more aggressively if its a Harley that gets stolen instead of your average FZR.
A lot of these bikes are stolen for simple crap like the bodywork, wheels, & exhaust. The rest is discarded.
When I get the chance I will go thru some of my reading materials & find the sales figures. They definately do not match up with the theft rates. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 05:27 pm: |
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"...point is that AMA and WSBK are PRODUCTION based race series..."
The interpretation of that statement is the true crux of the matter. How many truly production parts are used on any of those bikes?
As regards defining a racing class for Buells;
Once again the problem with racing organizations is their "peg and hole mentality". If the peg doesn't fit one of your predefined holes, the easiest thing to do is discard the peg. This is also known as "in the box" thinking. Out of the box thinkers have always given anal retentive types headaches.
:-o Did I really say AR???
Greg |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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Buell as a company has always done things differently. I doubt that'll change.
They have their own rules...why would they have to follow anybody else's??? |
Jprovo
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:03 pm: |
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Greg,
That would be anal-retentive. 
Hyphenated,
James |
Sarodude
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:04 pm: |
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Opinion:
Stop Moaning. This is how racing works. If your engine configuration doesn't work to the best advantage of the ruleset, CHANGE IT.
I was racing in a karting class that was ultra competative. Kart & driver minimum weight was 385 pounds. Race ready I was much closer to 450 or 460 - depending on the day. My weight was a terrible hindrance. I didn't lobby for a 125 Sumo class so the class would better fit my weight. I lost 50 pounds.
One way to look at these types of problems is this: There are 2 sides to every problem - things you can control and things you cannot control. There's no point in worrying about the things you cannot control. Fix (or change or whateveryouwannacallit) the ones you can control.
An unlimited displacement air cooled twin may never compete against a 1 litre I4. Stop moaning and either build the I4 or get the hell out. That's it.
-Saro |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:09 pm: |
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FWIW, The X1/S1 is the perfect street bike. Fast enough to thrill you, balanced enough to keep you alive. I wouldn't consider a 1000 inline for the street and I don't care what wins AMA races. But the newbie kid needs something to base his decision on. If Yandasakis are winning everything, he'll think it's a good bike. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:09 pm: |
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Ding!Ding!Ding!Ding!
We have a winner! Now if we could only convince JQ. |
Jssport
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:18 pm: |
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Reminds me of Ann Ryands "Anthem" book. In the future everything has to be equal. There was a dancer in the story that was riddled with weights and restricted movements so she would not be better than the others.
If you restrict the other bikes enough, I'm sure Buell could come up with a winner. |
S320002
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:25 pm: |
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Looks like we have multiple winners. In the time it took me to reply to Rick, Sporty tied for common sense. James won the AR prize and Saro wins the prize for in the box thinking (What? Me? Inovate?).
Greg |
Benm2
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:32 pm: |
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So, where's the "innovation" inside the pushrod engine? Perhaps the valve springs; the rest of the "innovation" is on the outside of the cases.
When I finished Atlas Shrugged, I became convinced that Ayn Ryand was someone I would NOT like to meet. Seemed to think she was better than everyone else, sounds like Anthem is more of the same. Too bad we all drag the rest of the world down to our level.
Yep, good streetbikes. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:40 pm: |
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>>>>Too bad we all drag the rest of the world down to our level.
If the thought of that begins to bring you down, take a look at a picture of a Buell XB. I use a 1990 RS-1200, but that may not work for everybody.
Court |
Rudebike
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:52 pm: |
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Benm2,
Thanks for clearing that up. You were beginning to sound like a little girl.
Jon |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 07:16 pm: |
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You really surprized me with this one, Blake. AMA has never been about one manufature races. Why, it's not what the public wants. Also, could you imagine what AMA would be like if Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha pulled out?
Nevermind that a "Jap Brand," Honda, has been dominating Superbike, not Aprilia or Ducati...
Vik |
Eeeeek
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 07:23 pm: |
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I love this one:
"The X1/S1 is the perfect street bike. Fast enough to thrill you, balanced enough to keep you alive. I wouldn't consider a 1000 inline for the street and I don't care what wins AMA races. But the newbie kid needs something to base his decision on. If Yandasakis are winning everything, he'll think it's a good bike. "
Your opinion. I'm much happier with my CBR954RR on the street than I was my X1. Here's why:
Fit and finish
Power delivery
Ease of maintenance (everything's metric, most bolts the same size)
Reliability
Handling
Light weight
Gadgets (two trip ODO's, clock, etc.)
Neat-o flip trunk
Fork Lock works (and from the ignition switch)
Honda's parts delivery system is AWESOME
I could go on and I recognize the XB's have adressed many of these points. I didn't buy the Honda because of any magazine stats. I bought it becuase it gives me a great real world riding experience, and that's my opinion. The Buell gives you a great real world riding experince and that's cool, too.
Vik |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |
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Everything fits on my Buell just fine
Power delivery/on-off switch
Ease of maintence- after you take the body off
Corner with an XB then say that
Uh, I don't care how far I went on my last trip
OWWOOO a flip o trunk, cool
Honda's need parts too?
I'm jus screwin with ya, Honda makes a fine product. But I still don't want a 954, I drink too much. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:09 pm: |
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IMO the beauty of the Harley/Buell engines are in their simplicity and power characteristics perfectly suited to every day street riding.
Take a good look at their features and construction and it really makes sense.
Saro...are not all the cart engines two strokes? If a 4 stroke was to be used would it not be uncompetitive due to it's weight and less hp/displacement? Couldn't the rules be changed to even the field for competitive racing in order to include a 4-stroke?...just like the 4-strokes that are now nearing 450cc racing 250cc two strokes in motocross...1000cc 4-strokes vs 500cc two strokes in Moto GP, what used to be 1000cc twins vs 750cc 4 cylinders in Superbike...which is turning towards all 1000's and likely uncompetitive twins. What, how did they do that?...How useless and unfair, right? Now why can't it be that way with all configurations? Damn politics.
There's clubs and other race organizations that operate under a "run what ya brung" mentality...and to me that makes a lot more sense then "run what we want you to bring." |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 10:25 pm: |
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I would love to see 600 Supersport combined with 250 GP...and watch some of these inline 4's getting smoked by 250cc two-stroke twins. It would likely shatter people's perception of their beloved streetbikes. |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:58 pm: |
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Lornce,
"Don't know anything about (Ducati 748/749's being excluded from AMA SS), but it'll prolly help Ducati save face."
I'd say you are mistaken. I believe that a Duc 748 rider won the FIM World SS championship not too long ago.
"I thought they did this in an effort to keep the oil off the tracks from all the grenaded Milwaukee motors? Seriously."
If that were true, why did AMA Pro Racing move them into Superstock, where the Buells will need to push even harder to be competitive?
"Errrmn, so you're suggesting the AMA owes it to Buell and Ducati to restrict the vast majority of all competitive motorcycles to allow these two very minor players a chance to pick up the pace?"
They don't need to "restrict" a damn thing. They just need to let the XB9R and 748/749 race in Supersport. Minor to you maybe, not so to the teams and their fans who wish they could race their Italian and American sport bikes in AMA Supersport. Why not let them race? Answer...Jap daddies no likee.
"Why should Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha be penalized in racing because Buell makes a few thousand bikes with tractor motors and three people on earth wish to race them?"
No penalty needed. WTF are you talking about? What penalty?  If those three people are all factory supported teams, why not? Answer... Jap daddies no likee.
"Expecting the AMA to continue restricting SBK to 750 multis is simply unrealistic."
AMA SBK already includes literbike IL4's for the 2003 season. To maintain parity between the twins and IL4 literbikes, the IL$'s are not allowed the same level of performance modification as the twins. I don't have ANY problem with that. I applaud that. It's about friggin' time they got rid of bikes like the R7 that were purpose built only for racing and could not be had by the general public. The issue is that for 2004 they are proposing to allow the literbike IL4's the same level of performance modifications as the twins. That will cause the twins to become uncompetitive. In my view that SUCKS! Instead, they should leave the IL4 mod restrictions pretty much as they are now so that parity exists among the two different configurations. Either that, or limit the number of valves to eight.
"The majority of teams willing to support the class will be running 1000 multis."
"Willing to support the class"??? You make it sound like the AMA SBK teams begrudgingly participate in the series. Ya right. This is racing, THE premier class in America, but you support excluding as many as four manufacturers (Ducati, Aprilia, Petronas/Foggy, KTM) because of the wishes of four others? One of those manufacturers is one of THE most dominant participant in motorcycle racing in the history of the sport. Yeah, that makes sense. We don't want THEM mixing it up with the Jap IL4's.
"Besides, I wouldn't be surprised to see Aprillia develop a competitive multi."
They are entering a triple in Moto GP. I hope they keep to the twins for their street bikes. Inline fours are the Honda Civics of motorcycle engines. Twins are the Shelby Cobras. To me anyway. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 12:36 am: |
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Grndskpr,
Actually I have raced two strokes, much bigger ones than your 125, and they are a hoot. Lots of power, but low CG's and light weight to keep them flickable. Ohhh, how I wish I were still young enough to make the most of one again. And, heck, if I were the only guy on a 1000cc two stroke against 1000cc four strokes, hell, I wouldn't even need to make the most of it to win! |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 01:06 am: |
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JQ,
You have a unique ability to twist the debate your way. Imonabus said that more Ducati engines grenaded, as in mechanical failure, as in the engine blew. He did not say that more Ducati's failed to finish races. Can you grasp the difference? An electrical problem or a stuck shifter do not constitute a "grenaded engine." You need to get the hell out of DC. The intense local flux of political rhetoric has infested itself into your psyche. I mean it REALLY is frustrating to try to carry on a meaningful debate with someone who continually obfuscates and twists the issues.
"Does Buell consider itelf a sportbike or a quick cruiser? If they want to play in the sportbike market, they have to play by the same rules as everyone else, racing rules included, no special breaks."
You are right!!! How is it a "special break" to allow the XB9R into AMA Supersport? - a) Parity
- b) Competition
- c) Fairness
- d) Integrity
- e) AMERICAN Motorcyclists' Association Pro Racing
Which one does not belong? You don't need to be a Mensa candidate to see the answer.
So you theorize that FIM only let the Ducati 748/749's race in World SS because the World Superstock class includes 1000cc bikes instead of 750cc IL4's?
Could it be that they allow the Duc 748/749's to race in SS because that is the class in which they are competitive, and that is the class in which they obviously belong? You think if FIM Superstock was limited to 750cc for IL4's that they would relegate the Ducati to that series instead? Maybe, they may also be in the pocket of the Jap daddies, just not quite so far as AMA Pro Racing.
"The AMA decided to place the Ducati 749's and Buells in the 750 cc Superstock class because the equipment and talent level is closer to the Pro Thunder teams than the AMA 600cc Superstock class."
Come on JQ, even you cannot actually believe that. The Buells and Ducati 749 belong in AMA Supersport. The superstock 750cc IL4's are SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the SS 600's. Plus you are the one always preaching about maintaining the same modification/performance-enhancement tech rules among all configurations of bikes comprising each class. How do the AMA Superstock tech rules pass your test? The IL4's are mandated to stay in near-stock configuration, right? The Duc 748/749's and Buells are allowed MAJOR modifications to help them get closer to being competitive, right? Not the same rules, right?
It makes perfect sense to put Buells and Duc 748/749's and even Duc 1000SS's into AMA Supersport. Why not? Jap daddies no likee.
I feel a letter to RRW coming on. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 06:12 am: |
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Saro,
"Stop Moaning. This is how racing works. If your engine configuration doesn't work to the best advantage of the ruleset, CHANGE IT."
AMA Pro racing has a slightly different saying...
Quote:If our rules do not work to the best advantage of our Jap daddies, we'll change them.
"An unlimited displacement air cooled twin may never compete against a 1 litre I4. Stop moaning and either build the I4 or get the hell out. That's it."
Not the point of the discussion. The discussion centers around the exclusion of Buells and Ducatis from AMA Supersport. Supersport are currently IL4 600cc machines, not 1 liter.
Go karts are a great way to get into racing. But they do not illustrate the situation with street bike based pro motorcycle racing. The street bike based part is supposed to mean that comparable performing machines that are sold en'masse to the public are all allowed to compete head-to-head in a strictly regulated racing series. The pro part means that factories are intensely involved in supporting and running their race team(s). It is also a HUGE marketing tool. AMA Pro Racing is denying that chance and that benefit to Buell and Ducati in the SS series. You know, there may actually be a case for a lawsuit there. I wonder? Sue the heck out of them and take the settlement and go FUSA racing all out.  hmmmmmmmmmm |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 06:17 am: |
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Jssport,
"If you restrict the other bikes enough, I'm sure Buell could come up with a winner."
In Supersport, you'd first have to let Buell compete.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 06:41 am: |
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Vik/SVRacer/Eeeeek,
"AMA has never been about one manufature races. Why, it's not what the public wants."
Hasn't AMA Superstock has been a virtual one bike class? Not by definition I know. But still, AMA Pro Racing didn't seem to mind. They certainly are ALL about a "one configuration" series though aren't they? Anyway, I'm not proposing a one mfg series. I'm proposing AMA Pro Racing let Duc and Buell run their sport bikes in AMA Supersport where they belong.
"Also, could you imagine what AMA would be like if Suzuki, Kawasaki and Yamaha pulled out?"
Could you imagine what AMA would be like if Buell and Ducati were allowed to step up? I don't want to get rid of any competition. The more the merrier. If Sukayama don't agree with that, then I don't care to see them involved as it would be detrimental to the sport. Do you think Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki would risk pulling out of America's premier moto racing series? I don't.
Harley did. Look what happened to their sport bike. (joke) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 04, 2003 - 07:21 am: |
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"You have a unique ability to twist the debate your way"
Pot? Kettle?
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AMA Pro Racing 
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