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Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 03:04 am: | 
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AMA seeks to please jap daddies
2004 AMA Superbike Proposal
AMA Pro Racing is considering the elimination of the 750cc-800cc four cylinder and the 900cc three cylinder engine categories from the Superbike class beginning in 2004. The result would be as follows:
(a) One allowable engine displacement category of 901cc - 1000cc regardless of the number of cylinders.
(b) Common technical specifications for all 901cc - 1000cc Superbikes regardless of the number of cylinders.
Sorry Ducati, sorry Aprilia, AMA Pro Racing needs to please their Jap daddies.
What a bunch of crooks. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:00 am: |
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First of all, it's a proposal, so it's subject to change.
However, by your standards the AMA is not the only set of "crooks" around here.
What FUSA class would a 1000cc Ducati or Aprilia race in this year?
The FUSA Superbike class got reduced to 640cc maximum displacement.
The only class they could race in is Unlimited GP, hardly the "premiere" class in FUSA.
Is FUSA a bunch of crooks too trying to please their "jap daddies"? They must be using your logic.
Get real. Both AMA and FUSA have come up with rules that they feel best represent what the marketplace currently offers and fans would like to see out on the track. What sells are 600 and 1000 cc japanese inline 4's, so that's what you'll see out on the track.
FUSA allows the Ducati 749's and the unlimited displacement Buells in their Sportbike(600) Class, while AMA lets them race in their Superstock (750) Class.
That's what they chose, they both had their reasons, and you are just going to have to learn to live with it, Blake.
Kevin Schwantz, who knows more about this than you or I, says:
Quote:Motorcyclist: When were the AMA Superbike rules last updated significantly?
Schwantz: You know, we were talking about this during our most-recent meeting in Vegas. It hasn't been since 1983, when four-cylinders were limited to 750cc. It's been that long.
Motorcyclist: Why the push for new rules now?
Schwantz:Look at the bikes being sold in dealerships today, the rise of 1000cc bikes and the lack of 750cc bikes. With all the OEMs focusing on liter bikes, we needed our premier racing format to better recognize the trend toward bigger-bore streetbikes. Our current rules package was built around 750cc bikes. Look at some of the bikes that were being raced-the R7 isn't even for sale in America, unless you have a résumé. We were seeing the effect of this discrepancy in the depletion of our factory Superbike field. Suzuki still fielded three bikes, and Honda still fields three, but there was one Yamaha (on occasion), and just one Kawasaki. Those bikes are not what the market is made up of, not what they're selling, so no one was really interested in racing them.
What will probably happen in 2005 is that a typical AMA event will only have three classes, Superbike {double headers at each race), Supersport and Superstock.
Formula Extreme will be absorbed by the new Superbike Class, and Superstock already absorbed Pro Thunder. 250GP won't be around unless enough people (and the manufacturers) ask for it. I don't see two strokes racing too many more years either here or in Europe, so they will soon be history.
When Ducati or Aprilia, or Buell each sell 10,000 1000cc race replica Vtwins a year in the US, maybe AMA and FUSA will revise their rules to reflect that.
In the meantime, I'll have fun watching Aprilia and Ducati kick some Japanese ass in MotoGP, and Buells race in FUSA Sportbike and Thunderbike. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:28 am: |
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This is a question, seriously, wasn't Niki Hayden riding a RC51 and doing real well? What class does he ride? I know Mike Himmelbach rode a Millie in F-USA Superbike and was smoking. The watercooled V twins seem to have a place in there somewhere. |
Bads1
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 09:33 am: |
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Sportman Niki Hayden went GP racing and will be riding for Honda. I'm really interested on how well he will do. |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 05:48 pm: |
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JQ,
Where did you find the information that the FUSA superbike class is now displacement limited to 640cc? I think that may be incorrect. According to the preliminary announcement by FUSA, Ducati 748/749's with up to 800cc displacement will be allowed and the IL4's will be allowed 660cc. I haven't seen the actual 2003 FUSA NRRS rulebook yet, so I do not know if there are any provisions to allow other engine configurations. I understand FUSA may allow 250cc two strokes into the Superbike class. Imagine that. So anyway, your contention is apparently incorrect since Duc 800cc racebikes will be allowed to compete in FUSA Superbike. That's fair in my book.
Yes, the liter twins are out of the FUSA Superbike since that class has been downgraded to a lower performance class. Guess what, the 750cc IL4's are also out of FUSA Superbike. They can race in the class provided for their applicable levels of performance, Unlimited GP. Guess what, two strokes can also race with them. Imagine that, all kinds of different engine configurations all racing against each other with none excluded.
"FUSA allows the Ducati 749's and the unlimited displacement Buells in their Sportbike(600) Class, while AMA lets them race in their Superstock (750) Class."
The Duc 748/749 is not competitive in the Superstock class. Of course that's where AMA Pro Racing put them. DUH!! Now, with the new rules being proposed by AMA Pro Racing, the twins won't be competitive in AMA Superbike either. Why do you think AMA Pro Racing would do that?
Schwantz is a Suzi man all the way. I respect his achievements, skill, and history as a racer, but he is with no doubt a devoted son to his Suzi Jap daddies. Read his statement, he does not try to hide his Jap bike oriented bias. It's not all his fault, he been immersed in the culture of if it ain't Jap IL4 is ain't squat.
"Get real. Both AMA and FUSA have come up with rules that they feel best represent what the marketplace currently offers and fans would like to see out on the track. What sells are 600 and 1000 cc japanese inline 4's, so that's what you'll see out on the track."
Here is where your logic goes astray. Of course those configurations of bikes should be able to race. But there is NO good reason why OTHER comparably performing configurations of sport bikes should not be allowed to race against them with rules tailored to maintain parity. With the IL4 liter bikes allowed the same extent of hot rodding that the current 750cc IL4's and 1000cc twins, the 750's and twins will not be competitive. The loss of the 750's isn't so bad; after all each one will be replaced by its 1000cc big brother, and only two of the manufacturers actually build a common street version their 750cc superbike. But to eliminate the competitiveness of the twins is a terrible decision. What happens to all the Duc, Aprilia, and RC51 entrants, not to mention possible future twin oriented factory teams like KTM? So long, tough luck, you lose. I am assuming that Aprilia is fielding an AMA SB team this year. I may be wrong in that.
It just stinks to me JQ. AMA Pro Racing has at every turn, enacted rules and made decisions that have systematically eliminated ALL viable competition to the Japanese factory teams.
FUSA has not. FUSA may have changed their definition of Superbike, but they have not excluded or rendered uncompetitive non-Japanese machines fitting within the performance grade of the new class. I hope to see the big bore Ducati 748/749's winning some races in FUSA Superbike this year against the Jap IL4 660cc bikes.
I don't expect to see any Ducati stock displacement 748/749's winning against the GSXR 750's in AMA Superstock.
"What will probably happen in 2005 is that a typical AMA event will only have three classes, Superbike {double headers at each race), Supersport and Superstock."
That may be true. I hope they rename the classes according to their new definition and makeup... SuperJapIL4bike, SuperJapIL4stock, and SuperJapIL4sport.
"When Ducati or Aprilia, or Buell each sell 10,000 1000cc race replica Vtwins a year in the US, maybe AMA and FUSA will revise their rules to reflect that."
Careful, with progressive ideas like that you may find yourself elected to the board of AMA Pro Racing. How many R7's were sold in the USA last year? How many ZX7R's? I think the current rules require just 500 units for homologation.
"In the meantime, I'll have fun watching Aprilia and Ducati kick some Japanese ass in MotoGP, and Buells race in FUSA Sportbike and Thunderbike."
Me too. I'll be happy if Duc and Aprilia are just competitive in Moto GP. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:12 am: |
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Road Racing World, February 2003, page 81 section 6.2.14 of the 2003 FUSA rule changes says four cyclinder, liquid cooled, up to 640cc in the new FUSA Superbike class. It also allows up to 800cc liquid cooled twins, unlimited displacement air cooled twins, among others.
Aprilia has not commited to an AMA team yet, so it's pointless to include them in your argument. They won't be racing WSBK this year either, their money is tied up in MotoGP
The RC51 was built to take advantage of the displacement breaks that WSBK and AMA gave to twins. They built a better twin than Ducati, won both Championships in 2002, proved their point, and they'll go back to their CBR954 and drop the RC51.
You are assuming that the Ducati twins will be uncompetitive next year at the AMA superbike level. You know what happens when you assume.
WSBK's 2003 Lineup was going to end up as a Ducati spec series until they allowed the 1000cc bikes in. We'll see how "uncompetitive" the Ducati's are on their home turf.
Quote:Yes, the liter twins are out of the FUSA Superbike since that class has been downgraded to a lower performance class.
So FUSA Superbike no longer allows 1000cc twins, but AMA Superbike still allows 1000cc twins along with anything else that shows up as long as they displace 1000cc.
At whose request? Who's playing favorites? The same "jap daddies" that you keep harping about with the AMA.
You can't have it both ways. FUSA and AMA did what they thought was best with the rules to promote lots of team participation and a good show for the fans.
They ended up with a different set of rules, which is to be expected, since FUSA does not want to be just an AMA knockoff, their rules are a little more relaxed about what type of bike can race where.
But don't kid yourself about which manufacturers are calling the shots at both the AMA and FUSA, FIM/WSBK, and WERA and CCS for that matter.
As long as what sells and is competitive are Japanese inline four sportbikes, that's what the rules will be geared around, no matter who's running the show. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:32 am: |
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Quote:The Duc 748/749 is not competitive in the Superstock class.
They are not competitive in the Supersport class either!
So why stick them in the Supersport class with all the factory prepped bikes and Superbike riders when you can put them in the Superstock class which features more "privateer" level teams and riding talent?
You seem to think that the equipment and rider talent level between FUSA Sportbike and AMA sportbike is the same. FUSA is very good, but the AMA is at another level.
If you compare the AMA Superstock grids to the FUSA Superbike and Supersport grids, you'll see a lot of familiar names in those three classes.
You are also not considering the probability that the GSXR750 and the Kawasaki ZX7RR won't be around much longer because they don't need to make them anymore due to the new rules. They will only make and race 600 and 1000's after 2004 or 2005. The privateer Superbike teams will all go to 1000's, and the privateer 600 teams split time between Supersport and Superstock and let the factories fight among themselves in Supersport.
So Superstock will become a "catch all" class for all the bikes that are not competitive in Superbike or Supersport. Sounds like a perfect place for Ducatis and Buells.
You might not agree with the AMA's logic, but to me it makes sense to put them and the Buells in Superstock when you consider the other classes available and the differences in the level of talent between them, and the probable death of the 750 IL4 bikes. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:55 pm: |
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JQ,
You said "I'll have fun watching Aprilia and Ducati kick some Japanese ass in MotoGP"
It isn't so much the motorcycle brands that might or might not be kicking ass, it is the riders.
Are Colin Edwards and Troy Bayliss up to the task of taking out Valentino Rossi and Nicky Hayden on Honda V-5s? Not to mention having to get around Max Biaggi and Tohru Ukawa on Hondas, and Max Biaggi and Carlos Checa on Yamahas.
I don't think so, but it sure will be interesting to watch.
AMA and WSBK = Special Olympics compared to MotoGP. I just wish the raced them in the U.S.
Superbikes are more about advertising and marketing than racing, kind of like NASCAR versus Formula 1 and CART.
Jim |
Lornce
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 01:56 pm: |
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Blake,
Why do feel the need to to be such a combative jack ass? Your abrasive attitude combined now with ignorant racist remarks go a long way to demean this web site. You, as list moderator, ought really to set a higher standard of communication.
Kevin Schwantz is a talented and driven winner employed by talented and driven winners. His views make sense and reflect market reality.
Popular racing classes generally reflect popular markets, always have and likely always will. What's so hard to understand about that? Japanese bikes offer world leading performance and quality: performance oriented (pardon the pun, Blake) consumers in large numbers like that. Racing class structure will reflect that.
Prepare for the trend of Moto-GP and WSB to become a single series using production derived or at least production related bikes. Prepare to say goodbye to 250 GP two strokes in favour of production derived or production related 600cc four stroke fours.
These are the bikes people buy in significant numbers and these are the bikes people will enjoy watching race. They're more competitive than twins based racers and America doesn't produce any. Get over it. Move on. Find another target for your latent dysfunctional hatred. But do us all a favour and stop finding it here.
regards,
Lornce |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 03:45 pm: |
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JQ,
Hey! I haven't received my Feb RRW yet! Thanks for clearing up the new rules. So FUSA lets ALL configurations of sport bikes race in not only SS but also SB? Imagine that. Why doesn't the AMA.
Lornce,
"Jap" is simply short for Japanese. It is not racist nor ignorant. Is "Brit" or "Aussie" ignorant and racist? With what in the folowing statement do you disagree?
Quote:AMA Pro Racing has at every turn, enacted rules and made decisions that have systematically eliminated ALL viable competition to the Japanese factory teams.
The jackass part... well I guess that's something in my nature that I sometimes fail to control. You? 
JQ,
More to follow later, too nice out to be inside right now... |
Lornce
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 05:11 pm: |
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Quote:
AMA Pro Racing has at every turn, enacted rules and made decisions that have systematically eliminated ALL viable competition to the Japanese factory teams.
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Seems the recent proposed changes affecting AMA Superbike competition, a competitive race series for popular production based bikes, reflects currently available production machines. No weirdness there.
1000cc multis are big sportbike business, 750 multis aren't. Why race 750's that nobody's making or buying in a production based series?
1000cc twins can't keep up with 1000cc multis? Sadly, for Aprillia Ducati and privateer Honda RC51 teams, that's racing. It's hardly pandering to the Japanese. Rather, it's facilitating racing of machines based on popular production models which is what the Superbike series was always about.
It's the Superbike series not the Handicapped for Fledgling Mfgr's of Quirky Twins series. 
I like to see the underdog twins teams win too, but we can't expect the AMA to deny market trends in their favour. Ducati and Aprillia along with Buell Triumph Moto-Guzzi Bennelli MV and BMW, are all free to exploit the market's taste for hyper achieving liter class multis. When they do, they'll also be free to join the Superbike fray in a competitive manner.
toodles,
Lornce |
Reepicheep
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 06:19 pm: |
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Lornce...
So what happens if I wheel up a 1000cc two stroke to the starting line with all the 1000cc four strokes?
Our point is that classifying bikes that should race together exclusively by displacement, and not factoring in valves, numbers of cylinders, water cooling, etc, is a pretty stupid way to do things, in our humble opinions.
Besides they DON'T just classify by displacement, they do it by 2 stroke versus 4 stroke right now anyway. Why is it OK to make that arbitrary "adjustment" of the rules for engine technology, but not OK to make an adjustment for twins?
Ultimately, it's not a big deal to me, I don't race, and I have no interest in owning a bike that is tweaked for the track to the degree necessary, it would suck as a daily rider. But I will call stupid rules stupid rules.
I think the best constraints would be time and money. You have to take a stock bike (retail price, or blue book used price), and get it into racing trim. Classes would be $10k total and 50 hours cumulative, which would make some awsome races between F4i's, SV650's, and Firebolts. $20k and 100 hours cumulutive would be some great races between HEAVILY modified 600 and 1000's, Aprillas, Ducattis, etc etc. Time spent working on the stock bike would have to be audited.
But I don't race, don't watch racing, and don't own a race bike, so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. (on the flip side, maybe if motorcycle racing more closely resembeled streetable bikes on streetish courses, maybe I would participate... I would love to do a track day sometime...).
Bill |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 07:23 pm: |
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The largest percentage of growth recently has been in the specialty sport class (read Buell, Aprilia, Ducati, Triumph, etc.), and these products have driven the cutting edge of chassis refinement and general motorcycle passion in the sportbike industry. For the first time these companies were starting to get on the radar for real sales numbers.
How was this happening? The one place these companies can compete for visibility is in racing...they do not have the bucks to do it with massive ads and discount campaigns. Yes, racing is expensive, but nothing compared to other significant marketing investments.
The massive power of the Japanese manufacturers in the race organizations is taking this away. Remember the UJM of the late 70s and 80s? Only the classic exposure of them in Superbike as being pure crap in the handling department compared to the smaller manufacturers products drove the Japanese to invest in making their motorcycles better rides.
We are seeing this end right in front of our eyes. Could the small manufacturers have continued this trend given a chance? Your darned right... to understand, one only has to see how dominant Ducati was and how quickly competitive Aprilia was against the best shots of twins that Honda and Suzuki could put out. Do you think the Japanese were willing to put up with this? Heck no, they forced the changes with demands for "rules changes or we'll leave." Honda didn't win the championship last year...the sheer balls of Colin Edwards did it, and they treated him like dirt so he left.
What the Japanese do well (and other Asian countries will follow)is to produce complicated high horsepower products cheaply. They love to market this, because charisma and innovation they don't do well. Bikes that reward real riders they don't do well either. It is a tragedy to see motorcycles with soul being eliminated from their major marketing opportunity. |
Lornce
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 08:31 pm: |
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quoting Repeecheep
"So what happens if I wheel up a 1000cc two stroke to the starting line with all the 1000cc four strokes?
Our point is that classifying bikes that should race together exclusively by displacement, and not factoring in valves, numbers of cylinders, water cooling, etc, is a pretty stupid way to do things, in our humble opinions."
As stated earlier, the classification of Superbike racing tends to reflect available production machinery. Why should teams be handicapped and forced to continue running 750 multis in a class that's meant for production based machines.... when there are no 750 multi production based machines?
quoting Imonabuss
"The largest percentage of growth recently has been in the specialty sport class (read Buell, Aprilia, Ducati, Triumph, etc.), and these products have driven the cutting edge of chassis refinement and general motorcycle passion in the sportbike industry."
Really? Do you have reliable data to support this claim? Last I heard, KTM Triumph Ducati Buell Aprillia BMW each had less than 2% market share. Go for a Sunday ride around Southern Ontario and it's a GSX-R 1000/600 R1 R6 CBR954/600 ZX9/6R road show with a tiny smattering of niche market bikes for colour.
more Imonabuss
"What the Japanese do well (and other Asian countries will follow)is to produce complicated high horsepower products cheaply. They love to market this, because charisma and innovation they don't do well."
Friend, a Suzuki GSX-R1000 and Ducati 999 each represent the current pinnacle of their respective mfgr's publicly offered sport tool. They both represent innovative and talented design solution and execution. How you quantify charisma is beyond me, but the fact that one of these bikes is approx 50 pounds lighter and 25 hp heavier is note worthy. Those pesky non-innovative copy cat Japanese.... Must've been stealing notes from someone to make that GSX-R, eh?
"Bikes that reward real riders they don't do well either. It is a tragedy to see motorcycles with soul being eliminated from their major marketing opportunity."
Excuse me? Using the above machines as examples, which responds more effectively to the un-real rider and why? Oh, and can you show me where the souls of these machines are kept and how you can recognize them? Okay now I'm being sarcastic, I apologise for that. But what on earth are you trying to say with the above statement?
regards,
Lornce |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 09:58 pm: |
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Quote:So FUSA lets ALL configurations of sport bikes race in not only SS but also SB? Imagine that. Why doesn't the AMA.
If you bothered to read the AMA rulebook, you would realize that you keep claiming something that is untrue.
AMA Supersport allows VTwins, as long as they displace 600cc or less. The fact that nobody has built or raced such a machine does not refute the fact that the rules clearly allow one to participate.
AMA Superbike will allow any configuration in 2004 as long as they displace 1000cc.
Quote:Honda didn't win the championship last year...the sheer balls of Colin Edwards did it, and they treated him like dirt so he left.
Now that's utter nonsense. Colin and his RC51 won the championship two out of the last three years. It's a little silly to belittle the bike's contribution.
Colin is fast, but his balls can't spin that fast. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 10:23 pm: |
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Two strokes may be slowly dying in the AMA but they will always survive in CCS, FUSA, WERA, and in club races. 'Tis a shame, though.
It's stupid for the AMA to have same displacement rules for twins. They won't have a chance unless they're given more room for modification in SS...or allowed a serious weight advantage. |
Rudebike
| | Posted on Sunday, February 02, 2003 - 11:34 pm: |
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It may be me, but I find these rule book arguements so extremely boring and tedious. The only interesting parts are when Jose and Blake get sarcastic with each other act like jack-asses. I know you guys like to spar with each other, and that probably keeps me reading as much as for actual info in dispute.
Did you know that the word "Jackassery" is actually in the dictionary? I think a jackassery could be like a nursery, you know...but with jackasses instead of babies. That would make this forum a jackassery. Or perhaps jackassery is a type of behavior...yeah. That would be better because behavior is portable. You can take it with you where ever you go, whereas if the jackassery was a place, you could only be a jackass there. So Lornce could say, "Stop this jackassery at once!"
I'd like to think that Lornce is as big a jack-ass as anybody here.
Jackassery abounds... |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 04:44 am: |
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Lornce,
"1000cc twins can't keep up with 1000cc multis? Sadly, for Aprillia Ducati and privateer Honda RC51 teams, that's racing.
No, that's writing the rules to the advantage of one configuration of engine over another.
It's hardly pandering to the Japanese. Rather, it's facilitating racing of machines based on popular production models which is what the Superbike series was always about."
Nope, it's pandering to the Jap factories. If it were just one instance I could see your point. But the preponderance of evidence is now blatantly clear.
- No Duc 748/749 allowed in SS.
- Sabotage and death of Pro Thunder.
- Only let Buell and Duc race in the second class Superstock series where they will likely be way outgunned.
- And now they propose to kill Ducati's, Aprilia's, and KTM's chances of ever competing successfully in SBK.
There are plenty of popular two cylinder superbikes and more to come that deserve to be able to compete with parity in AMA SBK competition.
JQ,
No way a same weight, same tech rules twin is EVER going to be competitive with an IL4. You damn well know that. Look at the huge weight advantage offered twins in Moto GP. there are none. Even Ducati is building a four cylinder for Moto GP. An SV650 bored out to 700cc and hopped up for racing is REAL lucky to put out better than stock 600SS power. Okay, I'll rephrase my statements...
So FUSA lets ALL configurations of sport bikes race competitively in not only SS but also SB? Imagine that. Why doesn't the AMA?
When Honda comes out with a street version of their RC211V, will they be able to race it in AMA Superbike according to the same tech rules as the IL4's? So sorry IL4's, buy-buy.
If AMA Pro Racing had a shred of integrity they would allow Duc 748/749's and Buells to race in SS, and they would maintain parity between twins and IL4's in SBK.
When you have a bunch of different configurations of popular sport bikes wanting to race, but through rules changes, outright class exclusions, strategic management, and class eliminations only allow ONE configuration to dominate ALL the remaining classes, and that ONE dominant configuration is represented by ONE very tight knit and wealthy nationalistic group of factories, when bikes designed and manufactured within the country from which your organization takes its name are excluded and rendered uncompetitive... well if all that were the case and you were not on the take, then you would be an idiot and an unpatriotic ass.
Let the ceaseless drone of insectbikes commence. |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 06:09 am: |
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Has there ever been a study on new bike buyers & whether or not their purchase was swayed one way or the other due to a bikes race record?
Im just wondering if this will actually make any damn difference at all on sales? I know I could care less if the bike I like wins every race or comes in last. I buy what I like to look at, how it feels, how it makes me feels, etc.
For years the best selling 600 "sportbike" has been the Suzuki katana..when the hell is the last time that bike even competed in a race much less win one? They sell a boatload because thet are affordable & the average rider on one will keep up with any other 600 out there.
I just dont think the lack of a viable racing venue is going to affect sales to any large degree.
I mean does someone go out & buy a Monte Carlo because thats what Jeff Gordon races & he wins, so obviously I will too? Nascar stock cars have nothing in common with street cars except 4 tires & a nameplate. Anyone think Aaron yates bike is even close to stock? |
Benm2
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 08:32 am: |
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Race bikes & street bikes are not the same, but they are significantly closer than what's available in the automotive world. Yes, NASCAR cars only LOOK like the FWD sedans they represent, they are purpose built race cars. However, an R6, or GSXR1000, or Ducati 999 are FAR closer to being "real" race machines. That is more-or-less based on SELLING MOTORCYCLES. To sell a sportbike, it needs to win races. Other motorcycles will be bought based on other merits. Right now, the Firebolt is an "other" motorcycle.
Several people have been vehement in their defense of pushrod, two-valve twins. We've all spoken our opinions regarding engine technology, and I think its clear where we stand now. However, what will we be saying next year? I don't see how Buell can NOT be working on a new engine. The technology in the rest of the XB9 is FAR more daring than what has been put out by the japanese, and Buell is an organization run by a RACER. Buell continues to support racing at the level where its bikes are competitive, but I suspect that arena will change.
Generally speaking, these discussions certainly provide for lively debate. There are people who are very opinionated, and who freely speak their mind regarding those opinions. In my book, that's a good thing. If you don't have an interest in the details of the discussion, then don't read them. Please, though, let's all try NOT to resort to name-calling. |
Lornce
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 08:41 am: |
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Blake, he say:
"No Duc 748/749 allowed in SS."
Don't know anything about this, but it'll prolly help Ducati save face.
"Sabotage and death of Pro Thunder."
I thought they did this in an effort to keep the oil off the tracks from all the grenaded Milwaukee motors? Seriously.
"Only let Buell and Duc race in the second class Superstock series where they will likely be way outgunned."
Errrmn, so you're suggesting the AMA owes it to Buell and Ducati to restrict the vast majority of all competitive motorcycles to allow these two very minor players a chance to pick up the pace? I don't get it. Why? Why should Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha be penalized in racing because Buell makes a few thousand bikes with tractor motors and three people on earth wish to race them?
"And now they propose to kill Ducati's, Aprilia's, and KTM's chances of ever competing successfully in SBK."
Seen another way, they're increasing the opportunity for other organizations to be involved at the SBK level on vastly superior and more accessible machinery. Expecting the AMA to continue restricting SBK to 750 multis is simply unrealistic. It's a series for production based supersports machines. The majority of teams willing to support the class will be running 1000 multis. They're the teams that fuel professional racing in America. Get over it.
Personally, I am disappointed for Aprillia. Nobody wanted to see Corser beat the world more than me during their brilliant SBK debut. They've developed some fabulous bikes to comply with the former SBK framework and now they'll never be competitive if the rules change as expected. But as it's been pointed out, it's not likely to affect their sale of street machines.
Besides, I wouldn't be surprised to see Aprillia develop a competitive multi. They seem the sort. They don't strike me as the sit around and cry in their "patriotic" beer snivelling sort....
cheers,
Lornce |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
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Dyna,
Racing not effect sales of sportbikes? I agree it has virtually no effect on sales of Harleys, for example, but sportbikes live and die by it. Ducati virtually didn't exist until the Superbike rules were re-written to allow them to have a chance. Honda/Yamaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki wouldn't spend the money on it if it wasn't required. And, unfortunately, the average sportbike buyer does think that Aaron Yates' GSXR is the same as his street bike!
The Katana is not at all the number one selling sportbike. It sells reasonably well because it is dirt cheap. The Honda CBR600F4 is the number one bike and it sells for about $2000 more...why? Because it is a successful race bike from the biggest company.
Also, what I said about percentage growth of specialty sport is true. Yes, there are more Hondahakis out there, but their sales were growing at a slower percentage than specialty sport, which meant that over time the small companies were getting closer.
Lornce, old buddy, there were more grenaded Ducati motors last year than Buell ones...seriously (and of course Japanese motors never blow up). If you actually knew facts about the series you would know that. |
Bomber
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:38 am: |
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Buss . .. . well, Dyna asked if there had been a study prooving the corelation, not if you thought there was one . . .. . .
if the country's sportbike buyers look like they do around here (Chicago-ish), racing is only known by about 40-50% of the buyers I've spoken to (again, not a study, so Dyna's question still looking for an answer) . . .the longer-term riders generally are fairly familiar with racing, and that knowledge may influance their decisions (although, as they become more knowledgable about riding, ther effect of racing results seems to diminish on their purchase choice) . . . . .
the other riders, generally shorter term riders, seem to buy based on covers of motorcycle mags . . .which bike screams that it won the dyno shootout? which one has a picture of the Brit wheelying, crossed up, wearing a kilt, tendering the single-finger salute on the cover?
luckily for these research-intensive folks, it's pretty difficult to buy a bad motorcycle today (smile) |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 12:02 pm: |
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So what happens if I wheel up a 1000cc two stroke to the starting line with all the 1000cc four strokes?
You will Die, because there is no way you could handle the power that would be avaliable, you would crash in turn one, i dont care who you think you are, that has to be the most retarted statement made yet, and yes i am very fimiliar with the Tularis(sp?) and thats only 750 cc 2 stroke, and yes it wins, but you did say I, and i doubt your that good, in reality i would be willing to put money on it |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 01:40 pm: |
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Grndskpr,
Blake's point was just the one that different engine configurations make different power per cc, so his statement was not "retarted" or retarded as I think you meant...
And, he would win, and not die going into turn one, because he would go through the turns at the same speed as the others (or a little faster, since two strokes are lighter), and annihilate the competition on the straightaway. If I were given the choice to ride a 1000cc two stroke against 1000cc four strokes, I'd do it in a heartbeat!
The 500cc two stroke GP bikes were right on top of the 1000cc four stroke GP bikes last year, even though they didn't have the best riders and were out of date. We are talking developed bikes here, not some homebuilt like the Tularis. 500GP bikes were banned from the old FUSA Unlimited bike class because they blew away all the 1000cc to 1300cc four strikes. I guess some bikes are just too extreme or unlimited... |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:02 pm: |
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Where can you anyone find sales data? I have looked all over & cant locate it. I know I have read several times that the Katana is number 1 in sales of 600cc sportbikes. |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 02:50 pm: |
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And, he would win, and not die going into turn one, because he would go through the turns at the same speed as the others (or a little faster, since two strokes are lighter), and annihilate the competition on the straightaway. If I were given the choice to ride a 1000cc two stroke against 1000cc four strokes, I'd do it in a heartbeat!
Well my guess is that you have never ridden a competition 2 stroke, if you had you would understand that the weight is not the issue, power band is, 2 strokes come on hard and for a very short span, unlike dirt bikes which have a larger torque band, race bike lack this to the extreme,(hell my tz 125 scared the hell out of me, one of the reasons i sold it, that and age)
Anyone except for a select few would loss it on a 1000cc 2 stroke, thats why even in extreme cases(former F1 class that Mr. Buell tried to make a bike for before it was cancelled) was limited to 750cc(by design not by rules), and even that was considered to much for most, and that was 20 years ago, so again i would pay to see you on a 1000cc 2 stroke, it would be more fun than watching Colin E. dumping his aprilla on one of the first laps he ever took on it
Just for the record, thanks for the spelling fix, i suck at spelling as most here know, and i am very aware of Blakes Point, however if he is going to make foolish statements regurding a bike which could never exist, i will call him on it,(i dont think he said it, i thought repicheep did) plus the fact that most here have never ridden a 2 stroke race bike out side of a dirt bike, which is not even close to being the same thing
Try a 250 and tell me you would ride a 1000cc bike(oh and H1's rz 350's dont count, they dont even come close to a modern 250, the h2's dont even come close, more like a 250 of 10 years ago) |
Dynarider
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:07 pm: |
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Meanwhile back at the ranch Dyna is still waiting for model specific sales data. |
Court
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:25 pm: |
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>>>>Well my guess is that you have never ridden a competition 2 stroke
Ah....again, my friends on the internet gloriously illustrate why the word "guessing" means GUESSING.
"Guesssing" - "adj" - from the ancient Greek "I haven't a clue as to what I am talking about but the following snide comment will serve to underscore my unsupported, uninformed and argumentatively motivated point"
A discussion of fact is best when it leans toward each participant contributing what he/she KNOWS. The inclusion of guessing and speculation, particularly for the purpose of turning a discussion into a playground web brawl, serve little useful function.
Court |
Grndskpr
| | Posted on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 03:33 pm: |
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You know what Court your right, i should have said
"if you have not" or " you should try a 2 stroke, if you have not had the chance"
i stand corrected, and i thank you for that, at least i did not call him a lier and tell him he has no business discussing the issue
Good luck |
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