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Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:34 am: | 
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All this debate aside, is Buell providing any sponsorship money to the FUSA series next year? From reading the new rules in RRW last night, didn't the lightning class offer higher payouts than the new thunderbike class? Also, the rules seem to allow for triumph 955-type engines, if I'm reading them right. I imagine that a well-tuned 955 triple would demolish a buell's hp capability. Also, some pre-1990 750 four's will produce serious power at 860 cc's.
The new rules do NOT seem to point towards a buell-friendly class. Am I missing something? Is Buell sponsoring ANY racing in 2003? Is the focus / cash going to be shifted to the FUSA sportbike & superbike classes?
I, for one, really enjoyed watching the lightning races. They were close racing, and (personally) I loved the racket they made at full song coming down the front straight of Pocono 3 or 4 at a time. I feel dropping that class represents a loss.
Ben |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 08:52 am: |
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>>>Suggest you heed his advice on this topic.
Suggest you READ his advice on this topic. Opinions, like missles sent ballistic, when sent aloft without guidance are oft in danger of landing on the wrong conclusion.
To quote my November 3, 2002 post in response to Jose'....
Quote:If you insist on beating yourself up, see the Gary Becker's (1992 Nobel Laureate in Economics) book.
For now suffice to say (quoting Becker) "De Gustibus Non Est Dispartum" which, loosely translated, cautions us not to quarrel over tastes and to terminate a dispute once it has been resolved into differences in taste, presumabley because there is no further room for rational persuasion.
Anecdotal opinions and rumors are fun intenet discussion. Don't look for any major manufacturer to base an investment decision on something so arbitrary and capricious.
Buell (the business) can be expected to be driven by logical business decisions. That is as it should be. I hope, in deference to the common passion that binds us, that some of the passion and genuine love of sport, from Buell (the person) sneaks into the equation.
I applaud Erik Buell for having the guts to KNOW his heart and values but for, in a world where corporate fears frequently mute wise words, having the courage to say so.
I've ridden most brands of motorcycles and maintain a fairly close allegience with many industry folks. Buell Motorcycles, like few others, are JUST PLAIN FUN. I'd suggest the old saying be modified to read "Race like you don't need the money".
Court |
Elvis
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:14 am: |
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Mental note:
Never argue with Court, or he'll go Latin on your ass. |
Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 09:54 am: |
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No I won't, but you can count on me staying clear of internet bar brawls based on the need to argue rather than the pursuit of a learned discussion.
There are a LOT of smart people here on Badweb. Some recall the day that one of us was challenged with "what are you, a rockect scientist?" to which the reply came "Yes". He's with NASA.
There are heated and passionate discussions on construction jobs, board rooms and at MENSA meetings. What differentiates a dicussion from an argument is the ability to debate the point, not the person.
Mssr. Buell and I have vehemently disagreed over the years. We see the elephant from two far different perspectives and we realize this.
The key, dear friend, is to defend your position, not your posterior.
Jose's discourse has always been spirited, it's part of his reputation. Lately, sadly, it's taken on a "what's wrong with Buell" or "if you stand right here, hold your head just right and look through these leftover 3-D movie glasses, you can clearly see how Buell has screwed up".
I'll tell ya a secret. . Buell HAS screwed up. Buell has chased dreams with passion rather than a risk aversion policy. I went to college on a gymnastics scholarship. Know which routines were my worst? You got it, the ones where I was more concerned about not falling or the competition than I was doing MY best. My first all-around Gold Medal came one day when I was driven by nothing but how damned good I was and the desire to WIN.
It's not "screweing up" but the ability to have the courage to go into the area where you CAN screw up. Trust me, I'm betting Christopher Columbus' route accross the ocean was not a straight line. To Buell's credit they have done an exemplary job of FIXING their screw up, more firms should exercise and adhere to such corporate responsibility. Buell has also, in a time when our litigous society would dictate otherwise, made HUGE strides in "passionate partnering" with Buell owners. The people of Buell are evident in everything the company does. . I like that.
Argue with me all you want, I, as the resident construction worker, am among the easist to trip up. But, argue facts, not my big fat tummy 
Court |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 01:15 pm: |
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The way I see it, Pro Thunder was doing pretty good until AMA Pro racing chased most of the grid away. All that was left was Ducatis, Buells, and some stragglers on SV's. They took the thunder right out of it. I always felt it was THE series to follow if your passion was something other than a Japanese inline 4. I don't think Buell was screwing up...seems to me they just wanted to stay competitive in their own series...otherwise it would've been nothing but Ducatis and SV's.
I admire Mr.Buell for just spilling out his thoughts...with passion...just like the passion that is the reason for the bike(s) we own(ed) and love(d). From where I'm looking, the statement from AMA Pro Racing was just to cover their ass. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:38 pm: |
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Quote:There will be more Harleys at Daytona than all other brands combined. What does that tell you about the need for having an AMA race team?
But they never go inside the speedway to watch the races. The one year which was the exception was the first year that Scott Ru$$ell was going to race the VR1000. Advance ticket sales set records that year.
That's what the AMA wants, fans in the stands. Having an American superbike out ther would do wonders for their ticket sales. If Buell does it first, great, but I think their window of opportunity is closing.
I have never said it had to be an inline 4, it can be whatever Buell wants it to be, as long as it meets AMA homologation rules andd is sold to the public, go for it and race it.
Look, I have said before that I don't like the way the AMA jerked around with the Pro Thunder Class, it was not fair to any of the teams, no matter what bike they were racing. But to keep the Brag Schedule at Daytona and LAGUNA SECA the same is a little ironic considering the way things have gone down between Buell and AMA pro racing.
It's called AMA PRO RACING for a reason, they don't want to be considered "grass roots".
That's what WERA/CCS/FUSA are there for. In my opinion, that's where Buell's sponsorship money should be spent, not on the AMA.
Buell is also sponsoring the national Battletrax series this year, you can't get more "grass roots" than that.
It's a great idea, well done Buell. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:47 pm: |
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Quote:What idiot would believe that a Buell Pro Thunder bike in any reliable and cost effective state of tune could compete with that?
Well, ,Mike Ciccoto sounded pretty optimistic before the Daytona race last year:
Quote:But how can an air-cooled American bike compete against super fast water-cooled Suzuki GSX-Rs?
“The new bike is very precise and a lot easier to ride because of the fuel injection; the throttle response is so much better, and it has more power. It just feels more like a race bike than my old bike did. So at the tighter tracks I think it’s going to do quite well. As an example, at the North Florida Motorsports Park a month ago, we went (unofficially) faster in one day of testing, on used tires, than any Suzuki there has been. We were very close to beating the track record. The bike is so incredible. And that was on used tires! Not only were they used, but the tires came to the track on the bike and had already been tested and used before I got on them. So it gave me hope that I’m not only going to be able to put the bike on the podium this year, but also win some Superstock races as well, which would be incredible for Hal’s Harley-Davidson and for anybody who is a fan of Buell motorcycles. If we can win a (Superstock) race, it would be history making and I have the confidence that we can do just that. As far as I know, there has never been an American bike to finish on the podium of an AMA Supersport or Superstock national. That’s all the motivation I need.”
“But I’m really interested to see how it will do at the Superspeedway this weekend. I know the bike will do well at the tighter tracks, but I’m looking forward to running it at Daytona and seeing how well the new bike is going to cut through the air on the bankings and in the draft.”
Finally, Blake, I suggest you relax and READ Erik Buell's advice on this topic:
Quote:“I just had a thought about this and after reading back through it, I thought that I should say a few things a little differently. This is not a prepared statement, not as a company or anything like that. Same as before when you asked me how do you feel. So it’s kind of a personal, raw emotional thing.
“I’m a pretty passionate guy. That’s one of the reasons for my success, I think. But I feel bad because I have many friends at the AMA Pro Racing, and I’ve developed a close relationship with several of them. Maybe even that closeness was one of the catalysts for me being extra upset because I kind of felt betrayed at that time, you know?
“The last three years, I kind of took a very professional approach to AMA Pro Racing and have supported all of their decisions and said so to many people. I made my support real clear. Sometimes that got me grief from competitors and stuff. Sometimes I supported their decisions even though sometimes I disagreed with them. The reason I did that was based on an understanding from them of what their mission and values were. Usually when you understand that, you can agree to disagree kind of thing and say, ‘OK, we know where you’re headed. I’m not quite sure the method’s right.’
“And when I read about that new race replacing Pro Thunder, I was just really stunned because it went against one of the core values I felt that I had been believing was behind their decisions - that they wanted to see fair competition between all the brands and no dominance by any one brand and a place for people to grow through the organization. And I just went, ‘What the heck was that all about?’
“Of course, I had also started hearing from a number of competitors, not as many as you did, but I got a lot of calls. They all were irate, and some were asking me…why had I betrayed them, ‘Erik, you let Pro Thunder die’ and ‘you told us why it was happening.’ The emotions of a young racer are still in me, you know, under the old surface. So when I was handed that note to call Roadracing World, I had just hung up from a call from one of the irate racer guys. I didn’t take the time to calm myself and wait a day, but I picked up the phone and spoke right from that level of emotion, kind of the young racer betrayed by friends kind of feeling.
“So you’re able to lift the curtain briefly on those of us who are out here and normally very corporately correct and doing a lot of stuff from emotion but having it under control. So the curtain was up there a little bit.
“I do still strongly support the AMA, and there’s real good folks at AMA Pro Racing, and I think I’ll be friends with the folks there forever. A couple of them may want to kick me in the rear end before we sit down for a drink, but I think they know me and they know where my heart is and will understand the fact that I was over the top that day. But I have to say, I still don’t understand what happened with the situation at Daytona. I don’t think it’s right, I don’t know why, and I don’t understand it.
“I also feel it’s unfortunate there are so many sport motorcycles and brands out there that don’t have a class to run in. I think that’s too bad. I don’t know, maybe improvements will come out of a bad deal here. I guess that’s the way it is.
“In the words of one of my favorite Blues singers, a guy named Tommy Castro, he’s got a song that says, ‘I’m just a man, I ain’t no Superman.’ Well, maybe that’s me. It got to me that day, but I think we need to work through why there’s so much emotion around this stuff. I hoped to work with AMA in the future, but somebody’s got to figure out and get some kind of understanding of the mission statement of that kind of thing because I’ve kind of lost it.
“That’s what I was basing it on. When they would say, ‘Here is what we want to do, and here’s what we want to do,’ and like the 600s, ‘We don’t want to have anyone in with them.’ And we would say, ‘In Europe, the Ducati 748s run with them, and they can’t even beat them. Why would they go against the 750s?’ And their answer was, ‘Well, you know, it would confuse the class. We want it to be simpler. And we already have enough brands in there, and we have somewhere for these other bikes to run.’
“But some of those things, I’m just confused about. I just wish there was a lot more clarity about what they’re trying to do because it makes it difficult to plan and to tell people what’s going on at a core value. Because there’s a lot of emotional guys out there, a lot of dealers and stuff, who want things to happen, who use some of us in the industry as lightning rods. When you have confusion and misunderstanding, it just adds to their excitement.
“I don’t want anyone to think AMA Pro Racing is the devil or anything else like that. You know, the emotions run deep there. Sometimes people forget that. They think that everyone’s just a corporate frozen mouthpiece, but we all have emotions. We all love the sport, and sometimes those get away from us. It should’ve been a more calm description of it.
“I have a good relationship (with AMA Pro Racing). I didn’t make any comments toward who, where the problem is there, who it is specifically. I don’t know. I don’t know why these things are happening. I’ve had a great relationship with Merrill Vanderslice, talking through issues and stuff. I’ve talked once or twice with Scott Hollingsworth, Rob King. What just tipped me over was this whole betrayal feeling.
“I feel bad about it, but the emotions are strong. We want racing to succeed; we want it to be fair. I think it’s important that we all understand what’s going on, those of us that are involved and have something to base what we plan for on. Hopefully, that adds a little calming effect to it, and we’ll gain some understanding out of this.
“Racing’s a very passionate business, a very emotional business. It’s a business where you see multi-million-dollar-paid guys in NASCAR punching each other on TV. (laughs) You see Roger Penske throw something sometimes. Racing is very exciting, and when you have confusion to what’s going on, that’s what comes out. Those of us who sometimes appear as these well-trained, cultured, corporate spokespeople, we have a heart and we have passion, too. Sometimes we talk a little out of turn. Mostly, it’s under control, but the passion’s still there. The passion to do what’s right is in a lot of us. Like I said, if I hadn’t just hung up the phone with somebody telling me that I had betrayed them and I felt that way, I would’ve had a little more time to be calm about how I phrased it, but I still don’t get it. I still don’t understand what they’re doing and what their rationale is now.
“Should I have yelled so much? Yeah, probably not. So this is maybe a more appropriate description of it, but like I said, the passion’s still there. I mean, you hear it in everybody’s voices. I’ve been there, too. When you’re racing, and those of us who have raced professionally at a high level, you are on the ragged edge of emotion because you are in survival mode. Racing is an intense sport. There are very few sports more intense where your life is on the line. I still have that in me even though I don’t race anymore. In that kind of world, you want things to be black and white, you want to know if someone is going to pop the damn yellow flag or the oil flag, if there’s going to be oil in the corner. If you don’t do it, you’re going to get hurt. You want to know that the guy beside you is going to do the right thing. So with my racing background and having just talked to a racer, that’s what came to the front. Sometimes you have to balance it a little bit, but underneath it’s good to know that that core is there. Sometimes you have to compromise. Shooting off your mouth doesn’t get you to the truth, but the fire to get to the truth gets you there.
“Again, within AMA Pro Racing, there’s a lot of good people. I just don’t understand what’s going on, whether it changed, how it is, why one thing one time would change and become something else. It’s confusing. It’s a tough business. There will always be some kind of controversy, but it would be nice if there were a little less. You know what I’m saying?”
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Court
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 03:14 pm: |
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Howling at the moon LONGER. . . will never make it another dog. |
Stormfool
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 04:39 pm: |
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But it will make some of us dog-gone irritable--anyway I think that any grassroots racing is great--Buell racing ditto--I agree with all the posts from Blake above (that I understand, anyway) and would be very interested in being a part of any FUSA--Buell effort, even is it was just holding an umbrella 
If the opportunity arises to help sponsor such I would be willing to kick some sheckles in that direction just to be part of something I find worthwhile/exciting... |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 05:27 pm: |
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Quote:You need to enlighten us. Besides the 50cc reduction in displacement applied to the Duc water cooled desmo entries, what significant rules changes were enacted to benefit Buell entries?
Remember Erik requested in that letter that the minimum weight be 380 pounds? Who was hurt by this?
From RRW on 12/14/01
Quote:First of all, I'd like to thank you and your publication for doing a great job with the Air Fence Fund and keeping an eye on the unscrupulous bandits currently running the AMA. You are truly looking out for the best interests of national-level racing and more importantly, the racers.
I just finished perusing the AMA's press release dated 12/4/01 (actually issued 12/14/01) regarding rule changes for the 2002 road race season. Since I occasionally race the Pro Thunder class and have only one road race bike, I took particular interest in the new rule that allows Pro Thunder spec. machines in the 750 SuperSport class. Although I do not completely understand the logic behind this rule change I am somewhat happy about it since I will benefit from it effectively doubling my track time. (I can almost hear Kurtis Roberts incessant whining about backmarkers and slow guys in practice as I write this. Thankfully he won't be riding a 600 much next year and won't often be in 750SS practice.)
As I selfishly stated, I like this rule because it benefits me. The problem I have with it is the way it is written, particularly the last line: "The Pro Thunder minimum weight limit of 380 pounds will apply." I am somewhat confused by this simple verbiage. If you had no knowledge of the history of the Pro Thunder weight limit rule or the actual Pro Thunder minimum weight rule as it stands now this would be a perfectly clear statement and there would be no room for confusion or misinterpretation.
History:
-In the late autumn of 2000 the AMA announced a rule change that would require ALL machines racing in the Pro Thunder class to weigh a minimum of 380 pounds.
-The announcement above was not taken lightly by many of the competitors, particularly those racing Suzuki SV650s or custom single cylinder bikes that would have had to add significant amounts of weight to their machines that were already at a power deficit compared to Ducati 748s or semi-factory Buells in the class. Many of us wrote letters to the AMA and everyone else we could think of to try to get the rule reversed.
-Success! On February 9, 2001 the AMA released a bulletin that removed the Pro Thunder weight minimum from the following "displacement sub classes": "Unlimited displacement single cylinders" and "600cc-850cc 4-stroke liquid cooled twin cylinders (except desmodronic)"(sic)
-At the V.I.R. round in September 2001, Chris Normand rode his SV 650 to 3rd place in Pro Thunder. AMA tech promptly disqualified Normand for being under the weight limit at the post race inspection. They didn't even know their own rules! After a lengthy battle w/ the AMA Nornand was reinstated as the 3rd place finisher and months later they actually revised the results on their website to reflect this.
Bottom Line:
The point of this overly-drawn-out ramble is this: The new rule is stated as "The Pro Thunder minimum weight limit of 380 pounds will apply." Does this mean that ALL Pro Thunder spec bikes running in the 750SS will be required to have a minimum weight of 380 pounds? OR Does it mean that the Pro Thunder minimum weight RULE will be used as it stands now, with an exception for the aforementioned "displacement sub classes"?
Thank You,
Tyler Sandell
Seattle, WA
WMRRA #13
STTARRS NW #1
AMA PT #51
(I hate it when people add this kind of ego-boosting crap to their sig line but I want you to know that I am an actual racer albeit, a slow, old guy.)
PS: I will be sending an edited version of this letter to AMA Pro Racing.
In reaction, this in from Dustin Moore:
Regarding AMA rule change release: 750SS class
I am a racer like many out there who heard earlier this year that the AMA was considering allowing the Buells and Ducati 748s in the 750SS class. I think this is the one of the more ridiculous things I have seen them do to date. My reason is very simple, and really applies more the the Ducati 748 than the Buell.
In my opinion (competitive or not) the displacement of the Buell does warrant its involvement in 750SS, assuming Harley could produce a competitive "SuperSport" version of their bike, or be allowed the similar blatant advantages as they have in the Pro Thunder Series (and still they don't win the title ?????).
Unless I am mistaken the 750SS class is a theoretically a "Production-based SuperSport" class, and there is NO WAY a non-748RS Superbike will have any chance to win. Therefore by allowing 748RS Superbikes(Pro Thunder Spec minus slicks) to compete, it is possible given the right conditions and rider that the 748RS will win a race or even several. But the point is, it is no longer a "Production" or "SuperSport" class and that defeats the purpose of its rule base.
This is a simple matter in the European, FIM, WERA, and FUSA-sanctioned events, and I cannot understand why it's so complicated for the AMA to understand/accept that 600-750cc water-cooled Twins belong in 600SS, and 751-1000cc water-cooled Twins belong in 750SS. And obviously the manufacturers of these Twins should be subject to the same "production Supersport class" rules that the Inline-4s are. But this decision is absolutely RIDICULOUS. Yet one more thing added to the AMA's pile of gross mistakes in the management of this sport.
There are other rule changes that benefited Buell, but I won't waste my time trying to convince you since you won't believe it.
I quoted Kevin Cameron because he said the same thing I have opined about Pro Thunder, but nobody attacked his credibility. But it's ok to attack my credibility and be asked to take a hike anonymously for voicing my opinion about this.
So be it, it's your sandbox. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 05:30 pm: |
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Here's what some of the Buell Racers had to say about all this when things were going down:
Quote:Several Buell racers at Daytona talked about changes AMA officials made to Pro Thunder rules in the off season.
“The plan is to run both (F-USA Buell Lightning and AMA/WERA Pro Thunder) series,” said Harley-Davidson/Buell of Fredricktown’s Bryan Bemisderfer. “We’re at a disadvantage at Daytona in Pro Thunder versus the Ducatis, but I think at tighter tracks we can do well. The rule change (limiting Ducatis to 750cc) is gonna help us. Now we can keep the Buell in a horsepower range where they can live.”
“There will be no Pro Thunder for us. The AMA turned that into a Superbike class,” disagreed Hal’s Performance Advantage/ Daytona Harley-Davidson/ Buell’s Richie Morris. “Whoever has a $100,000 motorcycle will win. I’m not gonna do that for a $1400 purse. There were a few of us chasing the Ducati 748RSs on standard 748s with 800cc kits, but now the AMA has made that impossible.”
“It’s (the Buell) really not too competitive at the Pro Thunder level,” said Steve Luxem in his return to Buell racing after a year layoff. “I’ve never run Pro Thunder, but you can just see what the 748s can do out on the track. I saw how much work (Shawn) Higbee had to put into his bike, and it made it a time bomb.”
Jeff Johnson raced the Harley-Davidson Twins Sports series and then moved on to Buells when that series ended. Johnson said, “I’m not doing Pro Thunder on my Buell due to a lack of sponsorship for a separate effort and the whole break up of the Pro Thunder series with some races going to WERA. We wanted to go to Road America at least, our home track, but now we can’t due to it being dropped from their double header Superbike program.”
Buell racer Greg Avello echoed Johnson’s thoughts saying, “I would’ve hit two or three Pro Thunder rounds with my Buell, but the ones I wanted to do were Road America and Mid-Ohio. I think the AMA should re-think not having Buells at Road America. The Buell Lightning series seems to pay off better. Plus when it’s Buells against Buells, it’s more fun.”
AMA officials did listen to the concerns of some Pro Thunder racers when they reversed themselves and eliminated a new minimum weight limit for all machines that would have outlawed anything but Ducatis and Buells. The weight limit would have seen single-cylinder machines and Suzuki SV650s add 70-100 pounds of ballast.
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Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 05:37 pm: |
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JQ,
I'm perfectly relaxed. I suggest you learn the facts instead of believing everything according to your own point of view. As to Cicotto's statements... he's under a two year contract; what would you expect him to say? You really are a trip. On one hand you quote Kevin Cameron to bolster your spin that the Buell Pro Thunder bikes would never be competitive with the Duc 748's, then in the next breath you spin up the Buell racebike's competitiveness in AMA Superstock by quoting from an interview with the lead rider. Get real.
BTW, I need to recant a bit, I actually believe that the Buells could possibly be made competitive with the Superstock bikes, but such a Buell would not be within reach of any racer that does not have a 100% sponsored ride. The development and maintenance of such a wild ride would require a HUGE investment.
I understand that Latus is working on a 1350cc, 150+ RWHP XB9R racebike with one off custom billet heads, a one off custom EFI system, and all the unobtanium you can imagine.
They are unsure at this point which racing series they will contest. When they do decide, please don't start crying about "factory" support and the exclusivity/unavailability of their racing parts. If you have a racing license, you are free to buy any and all of the Buell racing-only parts. Heck you can even give Hal's, Tilley's, or now Latus a call. They will be more than happy to sell you an engine or whatever go fast parts you want. It won't be cheep though. |
Hobanbrothers
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 06:21 pm: |
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Allot of times I start one of these posts only to give up as it takes too long explain my whole ideas and I just hit the exit button as I do not want to see flamin reply's. So if this one makes it I hope it comes off OK. I have agreed with JQ as he seems to have some insight as to how this racing gig actually works. I am not saying I agree with him whole heartedly, but I do see where he is coming from at times, and I would have to say that he speaks what the greater percentage of the people I know at the track feel. Right or wrong, I dont know, but I do not let me feelings change what I see.
This is a very passionate subject with me also, I have given my life to racing Buell's at times, risking my marriage, family and business. I have to state though I am getting as frustrated as many are on the circuit with the way money plays into everything. It is all political and money is the driving force. Wether it is AMA dropping Pro-Thunder, HD/Buell not sponsoring a certain class or whatever. People, corporations and racing series make decisions based on it every day and when the decision is made all the arguing and positioning does not matter, it is a done deal and you have to make your decisions revolving around the facts. It has effected everyone I know of in the racing industry and is only going to continue.
Does it make me mad, hell yes! Do I cry about? Hell NO! It makes me even more determined to win. I have had a Buell Engineer tell me it will be hard for us to compete this year as the stakes are going higher and I guess he just does not know us well enough. I will tell you all this, Hoban Brothers will be competitive in Daytona this year as I just got a call that confirmed that and I am giddy like a little girl!
Pro-Thunder was a class that "yee with the biggest pockets" won, superbike is the same, 600 class on and on and on.There are very talented riders throughout the grid at all of the races and all the classes and I respect every one of them for what they do. Winning takes the whole team effort, that means rider, mechanics and budget. Orange County Triumph won the inagural year of Pro-Thunder with a Triuph because they had a very good team, a very good rider and it broke them by the end of the year and they did not come back. I believe Mitch Hansen (a person friend) won the next year with the same. Jeff Nash won this year with the same, please do not take away from the riders in these series as I think all will say that McCarthy rode the wheels off that Duc! Buell spent ALLOT, I mean allot! of money to win that championship. Don Tilley and Terry G of Hals both have allot of my repect as they, along with the teams they put together are some of the best! But to blame AMA for their inability to win the championship does not do anybody any good and does an injustice to Jeff Nash for putting together an even better team. There is no crying in baseball and there is no crying in motorcycle racing!
I guess what I am getting to is, you play the hand that is delt to you and you dont look back. You dont blame others for your problems, you deal with them and hopefully you suceed. Is Buell looked at in the pits when they are running 1350cc to the 748's, yes they are, you are naive if you dont think so. I also believe anyone who has been around for longer than the average in the pits has a great repect for them also! Anyone who has been part of the Buell series knows it is a passion that kept it all alive though. You do not find that anywhere else in the pits and that is what kept the series going.
Unfortunately it all comes back to money. Will HD/Buell have the money or want to sponsor either class in the Formula USA? Probably not, Buell wants to put up contingency for Buells in the Thunderbike Series. Will it pay out as much as last year and as deep as we got paid last year? probably not. Will Hoban Brothers and Jeff Johnson(The #1 plate holders in the Thunderbike class) be competitive in the Thunderbike class? YES |
S320002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 07:16 pm: |
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"Whoever has a $100,000 motorcycle will win."
Make that at least two $250,000 motorcycles and a million dollar race budget and you might have a chance in AMA Superbike.
One question. Who the hell does the AMA think they're kidding with the homologation farce? Most competitive teams would be hard pressed to show you any unmodified stock parts on their bikes.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 12:35 am: |
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Hoban,
"But to blame AMA for their inability to win the championship does not do anybody any good and does an injustice to Jeff Nash for putting together an even better team."
I think you may have misunderstood the origins of the angst directed towards AMA Pro-Racing. No one I know blames AMA Pro-Racing for Buell not winning a PT championship. Jeff and Kirk and their team get all the credit for last year's championship. They certainly deserve it. I've met Jeff; he is a class act all the way.
No the problem is not that Buell did not win a championship. The problem is that AMA Pro-Racing blatantly mismanaged and seemed to purposefully drive the PT series into the ground. Rather than support/foster the seriest and do what was required to grow Pro Thunder, they caved in to their Jap daddies. So much for "American" motorcyclists association.
JQ/Quote,
"I quoted Kevin Cameron because he said the same thing I have opined about Pro Thunder..."
Kevin wasn't berating Buell for fielding race bikes because they have little in common with their street relatives. My perception was that Kevin was making two statements... First he was directing a dig towards HDI in hopes that they might unleash some funds for Erik and company to develop an engine platform better tailored to competitive road racing. Second, he was slamming AMA Pro Racing for screwing up the series by letting in the 748's and thus alienating all the other brands, the same thing Erik has been saying.
"So be it, it's your sandbox."
I'm not the one telling you to take a hike. I suggested you get real. The core issue here is not what kind of bike Buell races, it is what a lame excuse for management AMA Pro-Racing has been shoveling out. You would have to be blind to not recognize their seemingly purposeful sabotage of true multi-brand competition. That may be harsh, but the preponderance of evidence points glaringly in that direction.
The fact is that the Buells and Duc 748's were near perfectly matched last year. The better team won. But it was one hell of an interesting and closely competed series. Too bad other brands weren't able to get in on the fun. Why? They let in the 748's.
Anyway, I'll be interested to see if anyone can field a competitive Buell entry in the SuperStock series. I won't be holding my breath. I'll be out racing against a bunch of Jap 600 supersports in the local CMRA/CCS GTU class, and I'll be wishing like you that SpeedTV covered the FUSA races. |
Imonabuss
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 01:02 am: |
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Hoban,
Buell may be looked down upon in the pits for running 1350s against 748's, but only by opinionated, arrogant jerks who hate everything American. Nobody moaned about Ducati having a thoroughly modern engine with a 33% displacement advantage over the competition, and I didn't see anyone whining about how unfair it is that Valentino Rossi won the MotGP race with a 1000cc bike running against 500cc bikes.
The Buell motors are a different design, and as such require more displacement to be competitive. You won Thunderbike with an engine twice the size of your competition, and I didn't see you give the trophy to Ed Key...because you know it was a fair race, not one biased to give you the win.
The bottom line is Ducati and all the other manufacturers spent a whole lot more money (like hundreds of times as much) than Buell could afford to. Nash ran a nice effort, but it was seriously funded by Ducati, and that's a fact.
But Buell is the one who with their tiny budget funded a multi-brand class, and also funded a grassroots class that provided a lot of money for privateers such as yourself. Let's not mention lots of cheap parts, discounted motorcycles and support from Henry Duga.
I personally am absolutely sick of listening to Buell owners mock Buell for its racing effort, and sick of the AMA. Just be aware that had the AMA been a different organization, there might have been a lot of American Buell motorcycles running on Sunday at Daytona, for a damned respectable purse. Instead there will be a parade of dog slow BMW's, and none of our riders will be getting any money, only the Speedway and the AMA.
With more Buells than ever in Pro Thunder last year, how far away do you think an XB1350RR model was from being produced? It won't happen now, and that's a tragedy for American racing. Erik went away from racing for a long time after the AMA eliminated the RW-750 class,; it may be a long time again.
The lack of respect for the efforts made is absolutely disgusting. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 10:59 am: |
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Buell maintains a section regarding racing on their website; it's still there so lets assume that means they intend to continue to support racing. Grass roots or otherwise. However, within the racing arena, there are few classes where the bikes will be competitive without (a) dedicated classes or (b) favorable rules. Both of these solutions cause problems. Presumably problems with the dedicated class was quantity of competitors (the lightning fields I saw were dwarfed by the supersport classes), and the problem with the second is that most people see it as blatant favoritism toward buell. Which, of course, it is, in a sense. There has been no rule in any multi-bike class that was written to give the buells a clear advantage, they've been written to allow the bike to be competitive (at best).
The BMW race at daytona this year is a rediculous farce, and an embarrasment to the AMA as the pro-racing organization for the US. (my opinion) That race (with the old 'champions' aboard) could just have easily been run on race-prepped XB9R's, and would have attracted at least some of the Harley crowd. Hell, what if the top-ten finishers in both Pro-thunder and AMA superbike from the last year were given identical bikes for the one-off race? THAT would be cool; imagine Nicky Hayden & Eric Bostrum dicing on XB's....
However, Buell can't really compete in the big-leagues of pro-racing as it stands now. They have a chassis that could be competitive, but the main classes require development cash in other areas, specifically between the spark plugs and the drain plugs. The current setup practically dictates that Buell either support grass-roots efforts (where rules or separate classes are more readily modified) or re-establish a lightning-type class in FUSA or AMA.
The XB engine is an acheivement on its own, it is a definite improvement over the older engine. However, it isn't going to get any AMA supersport or superbike podiums. If that's the direction Buell chooses to take, fine. I don't work on their board, so I don't get to choose where the money goes. BUT, if I did, I'd get busy on both a 750 and a 1000 high-powered twin.
Get back to work!
Ben |
Ramon
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 02:14 pm: |
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Did you guys see this yet?
http://venus.13x.com/roadracingworld/scripts/NewsInsert.asp?insert=5036, RRW |
Hobanbrothers
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 03:31 pm: |
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Looks like I made a new friend? If we want to change things it will not be by throwing darts at this board. If you are a AMA member, you can run for the board and that is where things will change. John Ulrich championed an excellent effort the last AMA election and succeeded very well. Imonabus, please do not give the impression that Ducati spent 100x more than Buell on their Pro-Thunder effort as that is simply untrue. I saw the check that was written to Mitch Hansen when he won the Pro-Thunder Championship 2 years ago and know what he got for sponsorship. I believe I know a minimum of what Buell spent and your figures are not correct. Lets not go there as it is not the subject at hand.
AMA decided to not run the 883 series, HD is on the board if I am not mistaken, but what stopped that series was that HD decided not to sponsor it anymore, I believe that is the way it worked?.
Buell decided to not sponsor the Buell Lightning Series which in turn stopped that series.
I am assuming, I do not know this to be fact, but BMW decided they would pay the AMA X amount of $$ to run that 1x race, they are NOT going to run the whole series here in the states, just 1 race, and AMA said OK, sounds good to us, show us the $$$.
This is not the 1st time this has happened. 2 years ago the AMA chose not to hold a Pro-Thunder event at Road America as they said because of a double header Superbike weekend they would not have time. Then to my surprize, they staged a sidecar race on that same weekend. I was upset to find that out and voiced my opinion to Bill Fehrman (race director at that time I believe).
A small poll here, how many of us that are upset about the demise of Pro-Thunder have called the AMA to express your dis taste for their treatment of Pro-Thunder class?. That is another beggining of change. How many have sent in our AMA renewal form stating that we chose not to be a part of their organization because of this issue?
As far as dogged slow motorcycles(Boxer cup BMW), you must remember, we used to race 883's and I believe just about everybody said that about them also, but in my own opinion, that was some of the best racing out there!
Once again my main point to my 1st post is/was it comes down to $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. Rather than complaining on who did what to who and when, put your money up and start a series, call it the Pro-Thunder Series (of course get sued by AMA) and promote about 10 races, put up $10,000.00 a race and all of us Buell teams will show up. If you make money or not is your gig, we will race for your money though!
Also, when you do that, pay for some TV coverage so we can show the sponsors a good payback for their hard earned dollars.
If that does not seem to fit into anyones budget, just show up for a Formula USA weekend and buy a ticket. In your own little way that will keep Buells racing on a National circuit!
I personally respect everything Erik Buell has done for all of us, I have a 90 RS in my garage that I will not part with, wanted one since they came out, but once again it came back to $$$. I have not gotten the feeling that JQ has ever mocked Buells racing endeavors, there are those who have, and they will continue. You can scream at them all you want, it will probably just fuel the fire though. For that matter people mock other peoples endevours every day and by letting it get to you is letting them win, IMHO
We pitted with Ed Key and I was very happy for him as he has spent allot of time developing his bike, he is a good guy and a good racer, but, he did not run the whole series week in and out so he does not get the prize.
Buell has stepped up to the plate for Thunderbike by putting money up for hardworking Buell teams, that is a great thing and will likely bring more Buell teams to the grid. It pays for results within the Buell ranks, it would have made us good money last year, but there is no crying in motorcycle racing and I accept their decision and dont look back! Thankyou Erik |
Rudebike
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 04:33 pm: |
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I've been printing this thread and then reading it at nightime to help me fall asleep.
Actually, as someone who does not really follow racing or know much about it, I have been reading these posts to try to educate myself. It's almost interesting. My thanks to all of you and keep up the good work.
Jon |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 08:02 pm: |
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I'll miss the lightning series. Anyone could try it, and it was more about rider than bike and it put me in my place.(but still a blast to grid with the big guns and I appriciate the opportunity) Thunderbike is a lot more serious and really, Buell needs to support the guys that are alot more serious. That's what they're doing with contingencies. To set up a winner is not cheap and they (the bike owners) need a payback from somwhere and prize money isn't going to pay for tires. It would be nice, a Nallin XB9RR whatever, for 10K but it ain't going to happen.
People that only see cc's are blind. Suzuki SV650's don't run with the GSXR600's. Nobody complains about that? In WERA Buells are supposed to run with the 600's so Buells are very uncommon at WERA events. Why waste your money? CCS puts Buell against SV's and it makes for very good budget racing. This year is going to tell if XB's can be made to run with the 600's in Sportbike if $ is no object with the Formula races. It ought to be interesting.
Honda just announced a big contingency package and Buell doing the same is a sure sign they still want to win races.
PS: Congradulations Hoban, well done. |
Racerx1
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 09:33 pm: |
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Hoban,
Congrats on the championship! what are you guys running this year? Will you be racing an XB? A couple of years ago your bike was at the Indy show in the Millennium technologies booth...was taking a bunch of pictures of it as I was modifying my X1 for road racing at the time. got to talking about it with some engine builder from Louisiana (pre-208 mph Mr. Nallin). Small world.
ref 748cc duc vs a 1350 Buell....
Its all physics....a lot of people forget there are two variables in the horsepower equation. Engine speed counts for just as much as torque(work).Making some huge assumptions and simplifications (don't make me go engineer on you Blake....), a 748cc ducati reving to 12,500 rpm is nearly a dead even match for a 1350cc engine reving to 7000rpm. (748)x12500 = (1350)x7000 (6925 for you purists). You can start talking piston speeds, IMEP, BMEP, rod/stroke, blah blah blah and prove it, but you basically get the same answer. Works very well for the old superbike rules of 14000rpm inline 750 fours and 11,000rpm 1000cc V-twins. Long story short, its my opinion that if your goal in your racing series is equivalent power, it seems very fair to me to be able to run a 748 duc alongside a 1350cc Buell.
I also applaud Buell for paying excellant contingency money in the Formula USA thunderbike series |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 09:42 pm: |
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Ben,
You too seem to be missing the point.
"However, within the racing arena, there are few classes where (Buells) will be competitive without (a) dedicated classes or (b) favorable rules."
You point (a) is a bit silly isn't it? What bike wouldn't be competitive in a dedicated brand/model specific class?  Dedicated classes have their validity and their appeal. They focus more on the rider, instead of the latest greatest track oriented racer go fast turbine revving silliness that makes for a great racebike but a severely compromised streetbike. Brand/model specific racing series also by definition maintain a reasonable limit on the costs that a competitive racer must bear. The simple and correct answer to establishing fairness in multi-brand racing while keeping costs to a manageable level is HP limits as FUSA has seen fit to impose.
I'm not sure what you mean by "favorable rules." I think you mean "fair" rules. I would be opposed to any rules that give one configuration of motorcycle a clear advantage over the competition.
Core to the whole problem is the overwhelming success achieved by the AMA's Japanese daddies in propagating the attitude that displacement must be the primary guage used to measure class qualifications of Supersport and Superbike racing machines.
Is it strange that FUSA, and CCS don't suffer that "displacemet is law" delusion. In formulating their class rules, they recognize the other major factors governing the capabilities of a motorcycle engine. Factors like, type of engine, number of cylinders, type of valve actuation, number of valves, type of cooling system. In CCS and FUSA a race prepped XB9R can race against SV650's and RS250's; a big bore souped up XB9R can compete head to head against the UJM Supersport machines. The Buell twins fit extremely well into the many of the CCS classes...
| - | Type | 4-Stroke | 4-Stroke | 4-Stroke | 4-Stroke | 4-Stroke | 4-Stroke | 2-Stroke | 2-Stroke | Sportster | | - | Cylinders | 2 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 2 | | - | Cooling | Air | Water | Air | Water | Water | Water | Liquid | Air | Air | | - | Valvetrain | Pushrod | OHC | Desmo | Desmo | OHC | OHC | NA | NA | Pushrod | | - | Valves/Cyl | 2 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | NA | NA | 2 | | - | Example | Buell XB9R | SV650 | Duc SS1000 | Duc 748 | Speed Triple | ZX-6R | RS250 | DRZ350 | XL883 | | - | Example | BMW R1100S | Honda Hawk | Duc M1000 | Duc 749 | | GSXR600 | TZ250 | | XL1200 | | . | | Racing Class | Class Basis | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | - | | Sportbike | 4-stk prod street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | 800cc | 980cc | 640cc | Excluded | Excluded | Unlimited | | LW SS | prod street | 800cc | 675cc | 800cc | 675cc | ?? | 450cc | 450cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | MW SS | prod street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | 800cc | 980cc | 640cc | 515cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | LW SB | mod prod street | 1210cc | 700cc | 1000cc | 700cc | ?? | 565cc | 450cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | MW SB | mod prod street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | 800cc | 980cc | 660cc | 515cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | LW GP | race or street | 1210cc | 700cc | 1000cc | 700cc | ?? | 565cc | 450cc | Unlimited | 1210cc | | MW GP | race or street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | 800cc | 1000cc | 650cc | 515cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | GTL | race or street | 1210cc | 700cc | 1000cc | 700cc | ?? | 565cc | 450cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | GTU | race or street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | 800cc | 980cc | 660cc | 515cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | MW Sportsman | prod street | 1050cc | NA | 800cc | Excluded | 900cc* | 500cc* | 515cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | | HW Sportsman | prod street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | Excluded | 1200cc* | 650cc* | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited | | Supertwins | 4-stk twins | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited | NA | NA | Excluded | Excluded | Unlimited | | Formula 40 | Rider's Age (40+) | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited | 1000cc | 1200cc | 775cc | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited | | Thunderbike | prod street | Unlimited | 800cc | Unlimited | Excluded | 1200 | 650cc* | Unlimited | Unlimited | Unlimited |
Why is it that AMA Pro-Racing cannot formulate their class rules and displacement limits similarly to CCS? There is only one unfortunate answer to that question.  |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 10:02 pm: |
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Ben,
"I don't work on their board, so I don't get to choose where the money goes. BUT, if I did, I'd get busy on both a 750 and a 1000 high-powered twin."
Why do we need yet ANOTHER dirt cheap water cooled 600cc IL-4 supersport bike. Isn't five enough, six if you count the Duc 749 which the AMA refuses to allow into the Supersport series? What is with that? Same goes for liter class water cooled superbikes. Aren't there enough of that type of bike already? How about this... How about AMA Pro-Racing lets the *other* bikes join the fray. What are they afraid of? Answer... Upsetting their daddies. |
Blake
| | Posted on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 10:50 pm: |
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Hoban,
"If you are a AMA member, you can run for the board and that is where things will change."
Isn't AMA Pro Racing a completely separate for-profit entity? The AMA has no hold over it.
"Two years ago the AMA chose not to hold a Pro-Thunder event at Road America as they said because of a double header Superbike weekend they would not have time. Then to my surprise, they staged a sidecar race on that same weekend."
One more example in a long line that exposes AMA Pro-Racing executive management for what they are, lying scumbags.
"If that does not seem to fit into anyones budget, just show up for a Formula USA weekend and buy a ticket."
A VERY good suggestion. Also write to Speed TV requesting they cover the FUSA Supersport races.
"I have not gotten the feeling that JQ has ever mocked Buells racing endeavors.."
JQ may be a bit outspoken at times; in reality he is a tormented Buell racing fan. He has however directed his angst and frustration towards Buell and Buell racing rather than at those directly responsible for the demise of Pro Thunder, namely AMA Pro-Racing. He chooses to call into question the integrity of Erik Buell while blindly supporting the lies and rhetoric of AMA Pro-Racing.
One had a stellar record of integrity. One has a horrid history of disingenuous ineptitude and dishonesty. JQ has let his emotions place him on the side of the fool.
Rather than direct his energy towards those who orchestrated the demise of Pro Thunder, JQ instead chose to chastise the Buell racing platform and the people behind it. He is one of many who has fallen victim to the Jap daddies' "displacement is everything" propaganda. You would need to read countless archives to become familiar with JQ's opinions.
RacerX1,
"It's all physics" A'men brother! 
Excellent point! Do you know the rev limit of the winning Duc 748RS? I don't, but I bet it is higher than 12,500 rpm. I agree though, last year's PT competition was very close. Hmmm, using your same basic approach to the physics of power generation, a 750cc at 15K rpm equates to a 1350cc at 8,333 rpm. Ouch!
Jon,
Get thee to a track day brother!
Blake
PS: Hoban, it would be much appreciated if you would please hit the return/enter key twice upon starting a new paragraph. That will help gie my eyes a well deserved break. Thanks.
JQ,
We still love you baby.  Keep the links and pictures coming. |
Rudebike
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 01:23 am: |
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Dude,
A track day is in my future this year. Chop admonished me so when I met him about a year and a half ago, and I think I'm warming up to the idea. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 07:30 am: |
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Ramon linked to it earlier (thanks!), but it's worth quoting here:
Quote:From a press release issued by Buell American Motorcycles:
BUELL ROADRACING SUPPORT PROGRAM ANNOUNCED
$61,000 F-USA Thunderbike Contingency Program Announced
MILWAUKEE, WI (January 16, 2003) - Buell Motorcycle Company recently announced its roadracing support program for 2003, with $61,000 in contingency paid back to 15th place for racers aboard Buell motorcycles in the eight-round national Formula USA Thunderbike class, including $5,000 for the series champion, if aboard a Buell for the entire series.
“This is a lucrative support program for our customers and dealers which gives them the opportunity to compete at a national level in roadracing. We’re proud to support their efforts,” said Erik Buell, Chairman and Chief Technical Officer of Buell Motorcycle Company.
The Formula USA Thunderbike class, which pits Buell racers against single-cylinder, twin-cylinder, triple-cylinder and four-cylinder motorcycles from many other manufacturers, will be a featured event at all eight Formula USA National Road Race Series rounds. The events will be held at Daytona International Speedway on March 2; Mid-America Motorplex on May 25; New Hampshire International Speedway on June 15; TBA on July 20; Virginia International Raceway July 28; Road America on August 10; Summit Point Raceway on September 8; and the Daytona finale on October 20. Buell’s Henry Duga and the Buell Racing Support Van will be present at each F-USA National event to provide assistance to Buell racers.
Defending Formula USA Thunderbike class champion Jeff Johnson of Hoban Brothers/Appleton Buell will compete in the series, along with Formula USA Buell Lightning Series champion Bryan Bemisderfer of Harding H-D/Buell and many other Buell racers. The Buell Lightning Series, a horsepower and weight restricted spec class, will go on hiatus in 2003.
To learn more about Buell motorcycles, visit your local Buell dealer today and experience the pure streetfighter attitude, style and performance only found on board a Buell. Call 1-800-490-9635 for the Buell dealer nearest you. Or pull into www.buell.com.
Well done Buell! See you guys at the track March 1-2! |
Benm2
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 07:43 am: |
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Blake:
I guess I did miss the point, as you took away something other than I intended. I entirely agree with the premise that racing rules should be setup fairly, but you need to know a bit about engines to determine what's fair. Unfortunately, alot of race fans don't, and the perception becomes that there is favoritism within an organization. An XB9R in supersport trim might be almost competitive against the 600's, but the perception would be that the AMA is giving Buell a 400-cc advantage " and that damn slow p.o.s. still can't keep up!" (said with best drunken biker drawl)
Also, I was careful in my post about engine development NOT to mention water cooling. Nor do I have any desire for another inline 4. Personally, I'd like an XR750-ish air cooled 45-degree engine. Use aircraft-style small, multi-fin heads with forced air cooling, downdraft fuel injection, but (blasphemy) fit four valve heads with dual overhead cams. Use millenium-type cylinders to lose some weight and increase heat transfer, and ceramic coat the piston tops. A variable advance cam system like Toyota's or BMW's VANOS would be cool too; I think VTEC produces too sharp of a transition in the torque curve. I would expect that Erik's engine would be every bit as modern AND unconventional as the chassis. Sorry, way off topic again.
I'm glad to see Buell post big money for thunderbike. I, for one, have gone to several FUSA events in the past two years, but no AMA. It looks like things will stay that way. Also, same goes for WERA, who (besides the displacement rules) seems to beleive that every fastener on the bike needs safety wire. The only thing tempting about WERA is the opportunity to run endurance races, but I'd need some other team members....
Hoban: congratulations on the championship. I'll be watching this year! (hopefully, from the back of the pack. Wave as you lap me, please!)
Jon, hope you slept well.
Ben |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 08:01 am: |
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Quote:I have not gotten the feeling that JQ has ever mocked Buells racing endeavors..
Thanks for that, Buell teams have only tried to do the best with what they have been given, in terms of equipment and rules. I have nothing but praise and admiration for their efforts, I have said so in the past.
My problem has always been with the rules and the way they were handled, yes by the AMA. But Buell shares some of the Blame, in my opinion.
Buell decided to step up and sponsor the class, which is fine. However, I don't think it's good Public Relations when the brand that is sponsoring the class is the one that is benefitting the most from the rule changes. It certainly sounds fishy to a fan in the stands when he learns that those full faired Buells racing out there against those Ducs and Suzukis is displacing way more than the bike that they will sell you at the dealer, not to mention the fairing, the six speed transmission, etc....
And yes, only giving "unobtanium" parts to one or two teams when you are trying to encourage more "grass roots" participation is not good Public Relations either. Why bother trying to race a Buell if you know you are not getting "the stuff those guys down the paddock" are getting?
Blake, displacement isn't my hangup, selling a bike and racing the bike using the SAME displacement is my ideal.
Sell what you race, race what you sell, simple as that.
A good set of rules is key. The Canadian Thunder Rules are the best ones I have seen. Stock displacements, HP limits, it works..
FUSA Sportbike and Thunderbike still allow air-cooled twin cylinder pushrod bikes unlimited displacement.
Guess who makes those, the same people sponsoring the Thunderbike Class this year!
But I'll take it, as long as there are Buells racing other brands in a competitive, fun race format, I'm all for it. We will see if FUSA decides to limit power to weight later this year to 3.5 lbs/hp. This will prevent the monster bikes that we saw in Pro Thunder reappear.
This has been fun, thanks for your support. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2003 - 08:39 am: |
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Quote:He chooses to call into question the integrity of Erik Buell while blindly supporting the lies and rhetoric of AMA Pro-Racing.
Well the AMA issued a Press Release which quoted two letters that Erik Buell allegedly sent to the AMA, dated October 5th, 2000 and July 19th, 2001, which suggested rule changes that if not enacted, would mean Buell not sponsoring the class after 2001 and suggesting that they would step up to the challenge of sponsoring the Superstock class and/or field a factory team "for a good show".
The way to prove the AMA wrong about what Erik actually said in those letters would be for someone lurking here to scan those letters and post them here.
Only then we will know what Erik really said, not what the AMA says that he said in their press release. Otherwise anonymous can take a hike. |
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