| Author |
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Daves
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:49 am: | 
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I think they should go for it.
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
Buell sales Mgr
Battlemaster
wannabe racer
go fast gear sales
HD sales
Buell junkie
BRAG club director
no wonder I'm so busy
1-800-342-7539 ext 14
dave@iowaharley.com
rdcapt@hotmail.com |
Mikej
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:56 am: |
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Wait one season, then ask that question.  |
Bomber
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
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I'm strongly in favor of ANY grassroots racing effort . . . . . |
Elvis
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 11:47 am: |
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I don't think they will, but it would be an interesting statement if they did (and give us some idea of future intentions).
I'm not sure if I understand the article. Does Honda's "Contingency" give them the option of jumping back in next year? If so, that would be an additional incentive to keep Buell away. If they do it, it should be part of a long range plan.
I haven't been able to keep up with the rule changes. Will they even be able to compete this year with the current engine, or would they need a different engine to even be eligible? |
Newfie_Buell
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:00 pm: |
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Go for it!!!!! |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:09 pm: |
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In racing, a "contingency" is a cash award that is contingent on the racer meeting specified conditions, usually a top finishing result and his/her use and endorsement of certain equipment. Just about all the racing/supersport tire manufacturers, sportbike manufacturers, and major sportbike racing parts/equipment/apparel manufacturers offer some level of contingency support in the various club and national racing series. Even the oil and fuel manufacturers provide contingencies.
Honda's cash awards in FUSA Supersport racing will probably be "contingent" upon the racer riding a Honda replete with Honda decals, and also finishing in the top three to five places. It is a far cry from series sponsorship. Kinda like telling your girlfriend that you don't want to see her anymore, but will still send her flowers on Valentine's day. |
Racerx1
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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'Contingency' in this sense refers to honda paying out money if you win or place on their product. Honda has never done this in the past as long as i can remember....Suzuki and Yamaha have always paid well. Racers at that level tend not to be real brand loyal and will go with who you can make the most money with or which bike has a distinct advantage that year....especially considering how closely matched the current 600's are.
There are some rules limiting the sportbike class, but its fairly wide open as long as you don't exceed 115hp on a dyno and are on DOT tires. inline watercooled fours can only displace 640cc. Buell will be competitive in the series. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:18 pm: |
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They no longer sponsor the class itself which means that they no longer get mentioned every time the class is mentioned so they also do not have to pay into the points fund that all team/riders in the class are eligible for, no matter what bike they are riding.
I think contingency money is when they only pay riders/teams that race Honda bikes and get good results.
I don't think Buell should sponsor the Sportbike class, but they should offer contingency money to encourage more teams to race Buell bikes in this class.
Just make sure all teams can get any part that they want, no "unobtanium" factory parts for one or two teams.
If they want to sponsor a class it should be Thunderbike, which will replace the Lightning Class this year.
This class is similar to the Canadian Thunder series rules, so you'll see Buells, air cooled Ducs, SV650's and wild contraptions using single cylinder engines.
Unfortunately there is no displacement limit for air cooled twins, which invites ex Pro THunder 1350cc bikes to compete, which will force everybody else to build one of these monsters to be competitive.
There's a possibility that they will add a rule limiting the horsepower/weight ratio in this class to 3.5 lbs/hp.
This will help, but they should just limit displacements to stock. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 12:22 pm: |
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The FUSA Supersport Rules wrt engine modifications...
Quote: 6.10.4 Engine modifications are unlimited, except for the following:
A. Stock engine cases, cylinders and cylinder heads must be used, but may be altered. Engine
cases, cylinders and cylinder heads must be from the same brand, year and model motorcycle
of the chassis that they are mounted in.
1. Twin Cylinder, air-cooled, 2-valve, pushrod engines are exempt from 6.10.4
Meaning that Buell engine modifications are unlimited, which is what allows the Pro-Thunder Buell's and other high HP Buells to compete in FUSA Sportbike.
The above was taken from the 2002 rulebook, but I haven't heard of any changes to that section. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:03 pm: |
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JQ,
A significant Buell contingency would be nice too.
I also like the idea of the Thunderbike sponsorship, a true grass roots racing series.
I REALLY like the idea of Buell picking up where Honda fell through, and I REALLY like the idea of FUSA allowing ALL brands to compete in a true Supersport series thus boldly going where AMA Pro Racing fears to tread. I have absolutely no interest in AMA Supersport racing. They should call it what it is, the all Japanese Factory Supersport racing series.
Instigated largely by the big money racing series like the FIM's World Supersport and the AMA's Supersport series, the UJM Supersport HP war has become ridiculous; rev limits of current models are now exceeding 15,000 rpm. The things are so tuned for top end that they need to rev close to 7,000 rpm to put down a meager 40 HP to the pavement. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:24 pm: |
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The more I hear about it, the more it sounds like a good race for Buell to compete in. Could sponsership actually hurt though? For someone like me (who knows very little about racing) it sounds more impressive to hear that a Buell won the "Honda F-USA" than the "Buell F-USA". The latter sounds like Buell won a race they created. |
Elvis
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:29 pm: |
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Pssst . . . Blake, if you start a petition, I'll sign it.
http://www.petitiononline.com/petition.html |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 01:47 pm: |
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That'd be awesome...but seeing how there's already Buells doing pretty well in Thunderbike, that might be even better. I agree with José's thoughts on this one.
The latter sounds like Buell won a race they created.
or it'd be cause for extreme ridicule if they don't win races  |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 03:48 pm: |
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Any racer or racing fan who would ridicule the sponsor of a series due to their particular brand's lack of success in the series is being extremely small minded.
That mentality reminds me of all those who poo-poo Buell for not ever winning the Pro Thunder series championship. Like being a sponsor to them means they need to win the series.  Imagine the outcry then... WAAAH-WAAAAH the big bad series sponsor fixed the series so only they could win. Waaaah-waaah. Please! 
To me it is laudable for a company to sponsor a racing series regardless of their particular brand's chances of success. Conversely, it would seem shady for a company to only sponsor a series in which they are expecting to achieve great success. You know, kinda like how the Jap Factories rule AMA Pro Racing and their rules decisions. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 04:35 pm: |
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Quote:Conversely, it would seem shady for a company to only sponsor a series in which they are expecting to achieve great success
Like the old Buell only FUSA Lightning series? Or the old AMA 883 HD Sportster Roadrace and the current 883 dirt track class? Or the BMW Boxer Cup?
You could try to get HD, Triumph or BMW to sponsor the FUSA Sportbike class, but why would somebody that is not racing in that class waste money sponsoring it?
Kind of like Buell sponsoring Supercross. Wait a minute, I think they did that......
To me, it would only make sense for a bike manufacturer to sponsor something that they thought they could compete and be succesful in.
I think if Progressive Insurance, Vance & Hines, Lockhart-Phillips, Motul, Mobil, Amsoil or some major aftermarket company sponsored the class it would be better than if Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Ducati or Buell sponsored it.
Here are the 2002 & 2003 Proposed Thunderbike Rules...
6.5 THUNDERBIKE - Thunderbike machines, except single cylinder machines, are based upon production models, sold by manufacturers and their dealers in North America for street use. Proof of compliance rests with the competitor entering the motorcycle. Single cylinder machines are exempt from production and street use requirements. Single cylinder 2 stroke GP road race machines are not allowed in this class. All machines must have unaltered VIN numbers. NOTE: Ducati 748 Series machines are excluded from this class.
6.5.1 Production machines not sold by manufacturers and their dealers for street use in North America via normal commercial channels may be approved on an individual basis. NRRS will maintain a list of non-standard approved models and that list will be available at each event from the Race Director/Referee.
6.5.2. All machines must meet the equipment standards of Section 5, as well as the following:
A. Frame, cylinder head(s) and engine cases must be from the same production model motorcycle. Single cylinder motorcycles may use any frame and engine.
B. The frame must be as originally supplied by the manufacturer on the approved model. Strengthening gussets or tubes may be added. Only brackets or tubes not supporting suspension, engine, or drive line components may be removed. Swing arms may be modified or replaced and rear shocks may be replaced or relocated. Single cylinder motorcycles are excluded from this restriction.
C. Reducing engine size of machines from stock displacement to meet Thunder class displacement limits is not allowed.
D. Fairings that meet the requirements of Section 5 may be used.
E. Liquid cooling is not allowed unless original equipment on the model being used.
F. Original type of induction system must be retained. If a machine originally was sold with fuel injection, then it must remain fuel injected. If the machine originally came with carburetors, then it must use carburetors, however they need not be the original type or size.
6.5.3- CCS Thunderbike Class displacement limits are absolute and are set as follows:
THUNDERBIKE (Amateur and Expert)
Single cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Two stroke, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, air cooled, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 3 or less valves per cylinder, Unlimited displacement
Twin cylinder, liquid cooled, 4 valve per cylinder, non-desmodromic valves, up to 800cc
Three cylinder, non-fuel injected, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, air-cooled, up to 1200cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled, 1990 to 1992 model year, up to 650cc
Four cylinder, liquid cooled (oil or water), pre-1990 model year, up to 860cc
All air-cooled, 2-valve, unlimited displacement |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 04:36 pm: |
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The latest Roadracing World has some further rule updates for this class, I'll post them later unless Blake beats me to it. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 05:14 pm: |
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JQ,
"Like the old Buell only FUSA Lightning series?"
Was it not obvious that we are speaking about multi-brand racing series? A single brand series is fine by me, it is one of the best ways to showcase riders' skills instead of the machines' technologies.
"To me, it would only make sense for a bike manufacturer to sponsor something that they thought they could compete and be successful in."
When you are talking about big money factory racing I concede that you are correct.
We are however, talking about grass roots FUSA racing and helping to diminish the dominant stature of AMA Pro Racing and their all-Japan mentality. So I disagree. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 10:38 pm: |
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Any racer or racing fan who would ridicule the sponsor of a series due to their particular brand's lack of success in the series is being extremely small minded.
I totally agree...but they're out there.
The Thunderbike rules are pretty cool...but I think it'll just be a matter of time before the $$ and development into the unrestricted machines starts getting outrageous. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 07:45 am: |
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It's a matter of degrees, WERA and CCS are more "grass roots" than FUSA, which is in turn more "grass roots" than AMA.
I still think it would only make sense for a company to sponsor something if they can get good promotion out of it for their brand, and if their bike is competitive and wins some races all that class, all the better. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:16 pm: |
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Take a look at the CCS lightweight superbike rules. The SV650's currently rule that class. A skilled rider on a Nallinized XB9R should do EXTREMELY well. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
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Rick,
Ah, I see your point and must agree. 
JQ,
Heheheh. Did you chastise Buell for not winning the Pro-Thunder series? So then, unless Buell wins outright the series they sponsor, it isn't worth the investment? Maybe you are right, but are we to measure everything based upon its return on investment? Some things, like supporting a grass roots racing series have other redeeming value than dollar for dollar return on investment. Especially if the company sponsoring the grass roots is all about a "back to the basics" philosophy.
Do you think a souped up, 1170cc big bore, 110 RWHP, Penske or Ohlins shocked, Traxxionized XB9R with Duga supplied programmable race chip/race fairing/swingarm/chain kit could be competitive in FUSA Supersport? Total racerization cost would be around $7K which makes a new racebike a $17K proposition. Serious club racers can spend more than that just on tires in a season. I know one, an amateur even, who spent over $30K on tires last year. Of course he won all seven classes he contested so that is definitely one extreme of CCS amateur racing.
What would happen if the factory offered a Formula USA XB9RR (race ready) conversion kit. Let it rev reliably to 8 grand and shod it with everything mentioned above. Build a couple hundred of them and offer class leading contingency, like 50% above the competition. I think we might see the dominance of the SV650's quickly drop away. Would that be cool or what? |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 04:22 pm: |
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Quote:WAAAH-WAAAAH the big bad series sponsor fixed the series so only they could win. Waaaah-waaah. Please!
That was exactly the problem with Pro Thunder: The AMA kept changing the rules to keep a certain brand of bike competive; this bike happened to be the same brand that sponsored the class, Buell.
The class became a joke to a lot of people (Kevin Cameron in Cycle World comes to mind) because it was obvious that the Buells were not competitive unless the rules kept being changed in their favor.
Remember the letter that the AMA wrote to Erik after he blew that "gasket" when the BMW Daytona race was announced:
Quote:...Mr. Buell’s comments concerning Buell Motorcycle Company’s support for the series and the implication that AMA Pro Racing forced rules changes upon the class are a contradiction of his letters to AMA Pro Racing dated October 5th, 2000 and July 19th, 2001.
In his October 2000 letter, Mr. Buell describes the then current trends in Pro Thunder as “disturbing” citing:
1) “the number of brands on the grid is down” 2) “the number of brands on the podium is way down” and 3) “expense of the class is up.” Continuing, “Triumph is out, BMW is out, Moto Guzzi, Laverda, etc. Buell is the only one left trying to support the class”
In that letter, Mr. Buell requests two changes to the 2001 technical rules for Pro Thunder, those being:
“water-cooled multi-valve twins limited to 750cc, and a weight limit of 380 pounds for all bikes.” He then states: “Quite frankly, if the current rules for Pro Thunder continue for 2001, we will probably pull out”.
New technical rules for Pro Thunder based on comments from competitors, the road race advisory board and Mr. Buell were subsequently enacted. Those new technical regulations met Mr. Buell’s stated objectives.
In his July 19, 2001 letter, following-up discussions with AMA Pro Racing technical staff, Mr. Buell ranks combining Pro Thunder and 750 Supersport (now Superstock) as his “far preferred” alternative, stating that:
“we are willing to step up to this challenge and invest in the future of the class. This could include class sponsorship and/or team sponsorship to ensure competitive motorcycles are on the track for a good show.”
Subsequently, Pro Thunder equipment was made eligible for competition in the 750 Supersport (now Superstock) class. Therefore, Mr. Buell’s statement in his interview that he informed AMA Pro Racing “we won’t be able to run in that (Superstock) class, it’s a different level from where we are” is simply untrue. Is he suggesting now that he no longer plans to invest in the future of the class?
As for the XB9RR, yes, that would be great, I proposed the same thing a while ago. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 05:43 pm: |
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So JQ, wanting to be competitive against purpose built racing machines is unreasonable to you? You think the series rules should be left unchanged when one brand/configuration of machine has an undisputed and clear advantage over its competition? It seems to me that rather than giving Buell any advantage, the rules changes simply helped to level the competition. Let me see, isn't that what the series was supposed to be all about? Didn't the originator of the Pro Thunder idea advise AMA pro Racing that letting in the Ducati 748's into the series would ruin it? AMA Pro Racing did it anyway.
You need to read more carefully what the jerks at AMA quote Erik as having said...
Quote:1) “the number of brands on the grid is down”
2) “the number of brands on the podium is way down” and
3) “expense of the class is up.”
“Triumph is out, BMW is out, Moto Guzzi, Laverda, etc. Buell is the only one left trying to support the class”
AMA Pro Racing contends that... "New technical rules for Pro Thunder based on comments from competitors, the road race advisory board and Mr. Buell were subsequently enacted."
Yeah right! Why the fuck didn't they listen in the first place and keep the 748's out of the series?!
Do you not see that AMA Pro Racing's decision to let the Duc 748 racebikes into the series is the root cause of the whole problem? Remember when Triumph and others were competing in the series. That was cool wasn't it?
Do you actually believe Buell was trying to gain an upper hand in order to win the series championship? Seems to me Buell just wanted an interesting and competitive not too expensive grass roots racing series.
Erik "far preferred" merging Pro Thunder into the new Superstock class versus what??? Can you say? What exactly was merger into the Superstock class preferred over? I have no idea, and the slimy AMA Pro Racing jerk who wrote that disingenuous, cover his ass rebuttal was obviously trying to disguise something. The merger of PT and Superstock was probably "preferred" over complete and total extinction of Pro Thunder entries in AMA Pro Racing. I'd bet money that is what it was "preferred" over. That certainly doesn't imply that the PT entries would be competitive.
Who do you believe? AMA Pro Racing or Erik Buell. I'll tell you who I believe, and it ain't the AMA jerks.
"This could include class sponsorhsip and/or team sponsorship..."
The AMA scumbag states further that "Therefore, Mr. Buell’s statement in his interview that he informed AMA Pro Racing “we won’t be able to run in that (Superstock) class, it’s a different level from where we are” is simply untrue." is ludicrous. Why would anyone even have to tell these idiots that?!! We are talking about Suzuki GSXR750 racebikes that put down over 140 RWHP with virtually no modification. With typical race prepping, they are probably putting down 155 rwhp. What idiot would believe that a Buell Pro Thunder bike in any reliable and cost effective state of tune could compete with that?
There is an overwhelming stench emanating from AMA Pro Racing. Wake up and smell the rat JQ.
AMA pro Racing has once again handed in gift wrapped form another racing series to their Japanese factory daddies. |
Blake
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 06:01 pm: |
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Further ranting... All you have to do is compare last year's qualifying times between PT and SStk. The AMA Pro Racing jerk is a complete and utter idiot if he ever even considered that the PT bikes would be competitive in Superstock. And now the Jap factories are 100% into backing Superstock teams with some of their best riders. Smelling that rat yet JQ?
Back to your original comment implying that Buell stacked the deck in it's own favor in PT racing... Funny, Buell didn't win the series championship did they? I guess the rules changes were actually pretty fair then weren't they? I guess that blows your whole point then doesn't it? |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 08:22 pm: |
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I can tell you what "far preferred" meant. The two options that the AMA offered Buell were to run in Superstock or run in Formula Extreme. They were committed to forcing out Pro Thunder, unwilling to change the rules in Supersport to allow Buell or Ducati in (even 'though that's the way it is in the FIM), and unwilling to give a displacement break or change in Superbike. Which would you "prefer"?
And why did Buell say in the same letter they might be willing to sponsor the class? Because Merrill Vanderslice told them they had better do one heck of a sales job to get the AMA Pro Racing Board to consider making any changes at all for Buell and the other Pro Thunder guys.
Of course this was all done over the phone, so there wouldn't be any incriminating letter, I suppose. One might have thought this type of conversation was between a couple of guys wanting to work to make racing happen, but then one might be wrong might'nt one... |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 08:24 pm: |
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And, JQ, take a hike. Guess who. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:21 pm: |
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Gee, will admin reveal who's posting anonymous on this one? I guess not.
Quote:I guess that blows your whole point then doesn't it?
No, actually it makes it look worse for Buell when they couldn't win the championship considering how much the rules were changed to keep them competitive, even when the only two teams that were even remotely competitive were the factory backed Tilley and Hal teams.
Here is what Kevin Cameron wrote in the June 2002 Cycle World:
Quote:Buell Pro Thunder is a class repeatedly rules-adjusted to prevent its turning into yet another Ducati spec series like Battle of the Twins did before it. Triumph Triples came and went a few years ago, and now it's mostly Ducatis and Buells. Liquid-cooled Ducati displacement has been trimmed dwon this year to 750cc from 800cc, while the limit for Buells is 1350. Don Tilley has learned more than the world needs to know about getting amazing power from air-cooled pushrod Harley engines. Now come factory Buell entries as well, in the form of the new Firebolt XB9R. If the rules adjustments continue, who will win as Ducatis approach zero displacement and the Buells near infinity? Please, Harley, Erik Buell needs some Technology....
Buell tried running Superstock in Daytona with Mike Ciccoto. He finished 26th, I don't think they tried racing that class the rest of the year.
As to who wrote the letter, if you clicked on the link you would read the rest of it:
Quote:It gives me no great pleasure to discredit Mr. Buell in this manner, but his unwillingness to correct the record leaves our organization no other option. We are all passionate about racing. That very passion drives us to focus our lives on this sport. In this case, it appears Mr. Buell’s passion overpowered his judgment and his remarks were inaccurate and unfortunate. Mr. Buell owes AMA Pro Racing an apology.
Regards,
Scott Hollingsworth
CEO, AMA Pro Racing
If Buell was so upset at the AMA, why do they still have all the Daytona BRAG stuff going on at the Daytona Speedway while the AMA was there racing? They didn't change their schedule, so I guess they're not that upset.
Again, if Buell wants to race in AMA, design, build, sell and race a true race bike, in the meantime, be happy to sponsor and offer contingencies in FUSA, WERA and all the other "grass roots" series. It is a better "investment" |
Davegess
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 15, 2003 - 10:46 pm: |
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Anon, don't let JQ get ya. He won't be happy till Buell builds an inline 4 and goes WSC racing. His grasp on reality is low. |
S320002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 01:14 am: |
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JQ,
"If Buell was so upset at the AMA, why do they still have all the Daytona BRAG stuff going on at the Daytona Speedway while the AMA was there racing?"
You really are clueless aren't you? Daytona Bike Week is usually the biggest US bike event of the year. If attendance at the AMA Daytona road races were the only draw they would have canceled the event. Buell will be there to sell bikes. There will be more Harleys at Daytona than all other brands combined. What does that tell you about the need for having an AMA race team?
Your grasp on reality is not just low, its nearly nonexistent.
Greg |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, January 16, 2003 - 02:42 am: |
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Thank you Greg. 
JQ,
You need to enlighten us. Besides the 50cc reduction in displacement applied to the Duc water cooled desmo entries, what significant rules changes were enacted to benefit Buell entries? You are throwing your credibility out the window by taking up the side of AMA Pro Racing. I'm sorry to see that.
There are certain individuals who I have found to have a solid record of integrity and honesty. Anonymous is one of them. Suggest you heed his advice on this topic. |
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