| Author | Message | ||
     Jssport |
So I went to pick up some cheap race gas (Turbo Blue 104) at my local place and the pump was broke. Hmmm.... all my buddies who use race gas are gone for the weekend,.. so I call down to F+S HD and ask them. (F+S sponsered #42 Steve Morehead, and now Will McCoy in flatrack and also provided the heads for Aaron's RR1000 record bike, they also built the first Suzuki Supertracker) They carry "Fast Gas" and say there are 3 blends (MX, Flat Track and Drag Race), but they only have 1 (MX) that is already mixed up. Mixed up? "Ya, already has the methanol added, that's what race gas is. It has a short shelf life." I passed on it but now I'm totally confused, when I used to pre-mix race gas with Castor bean oil for my 2-strokes, it had a shelf life of about 24 hrs, but it gave that beautiful smell and the ultimate in protection at the cost of gummy buildup. Sometimes I smell that at flat track races sometimes and somebody told me that they actually put some bean oil in the gas to aid lubrication on the 4-stroke top end. I've always got gas I assumed was blended at the refinery or a mid-size oil co. And it was ready to go, sometimes in large tanks like at gas stations. I've used several different types of race gas since the early 80's when I used to roadrace in SoCal, but this is the first time I've heard of mixing methanol right before using it. Hmm,.. I am running the Fuel classes at Bonneville.. maybe ??? .... Does anyone have some insight they could provide. Jim S | ||
| Spiderman |
First off what compresion are you running, and how much horse power? Have you ran turbo blue before? My M2 pushes 86 RWHP and 10 to 1 comp. and when i ran turbo blue she would pop like mad when I let off the gas in gear. | ||
| Phonemanjustin |
I dont know what you are running but check out this site for race fuel. I have never been a fan of turbo blue other than it smells nice, I always got a LOT of detonation from it when we went to C16 our problems stopped. http://www.vpracingfuels.com/ | ||
| Ken01mp |
i have an M2 with 85rwhp that runs like a champ on '76 110 octane, and the exaust makes my eyes water at stoplights. its not meth added, its leaded. meth and lead are just cheaper ways to boost octane numbers, lead also being and upper cylinder lubricant. then again, mine was tuned on race gas Ken | ||
| Jssport |
I guess I was unclear on my question, most race gas (Turbo Blue, VP, SoCal, Trick, ERC) comes mixed already and with a long shelf life (in a metal sealed container). F+S carries "Fast Gas" and they mix it up with methanol (part of the fast gas procedure ??), it has a short shelf life. Would this be comparable to normal high octane race gas or is it a different beast all together ? As in requiring different jetting, timing ??? Jim S | ||
| Racerx |
You need alot more then that. You bike is no wear near built up enough to ever reep the benifits of any of those fuels. To take full advantage you would need 13 to 1 compresion over 150 RWHP some real wicked sh*&. | ||
| Jssport |
Racerx, I race LSR, the current motor in my race frame is 14:1, 80 ci. It's built !! I'm going for 1350cc M/PF and A/PG, I'm thinking this methanol mix might give me an advantage over straight race gas. Next year, a 100 inch motor slides into it. NO2 and a full fairing to chase 200 mph. Jim S | ||
| Madduck |
Jim, Like your post. We have been thinking about chasing 200 with 1350 cc. Do you truly think 100 ci is required to go 200?? Paul | ||
| Anonymous |
Uhhh... In Racerx's profile, does that say HONDA on your pants? And I get Sh^$ for wearing a Harley Jacket on a Buell... | ||
| Aaron |
Paul ... here's someone who tried to do it on 1350cc ...  I heard he was running nitromethane. Got into the 190's. This guy is an outstanding engineer and tuner, too. It's harder than you might think. Look at it this way ... a stock Hayabusa, which is an incredibly slippery bike, will do about 185 at Bonneville on 160 SAE hp, more or less. Scale that to 200mph (hp required goes up with the cube of the speed increase) and even the Hayabusa would need over 200hp to get there. 200hp on 80 cubic inches is 2.5hp per ci, and that's a whole bunch for any Harley. Not to say it can't be done, but it's a challenge, and getting a Harley motor to hold that much power for that long and stay together is a challenge, too. And look at it one more way ... it has yet to be done even at 1650cc, with a Harley motor in a non-streamliner bike. It's hard. | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, There a couple of us looking at 200 mph a couple of different ways. One option would be sprtster motor and streamlining, but you don't get that many runs in with the wind situation on the salt. Other option is to go for cubic inches. A lot of people thnk it can be done at 100 ci, it just hasn't yet. Assuming you have something still resembling a motorcycle for the attempts. It would be sort of cool to have a bunch of us chasing the same thing but it would be too cool for you to get it this year!! Would leaving the bags on the S2 for nox storage violate the no streamling behind rider rule?? Paul | ||
| Aaron |
"Would leaving the bags on the S2 for nox storage violate the no streamling behind rider rule?? " You're not allowed streamlining behind the rider? In MPS/APS? | ||
| X1glider |
If the weather sux, I'll be arriving in Wendover in my red and black 1 piece touring suit that says Honda racing all over it! BTW, why do all the other bikers not ride with me?  | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, I've been thru the rule book so often my head hurts. I remember seeing that phrase and now I can't find any mention of it other than the rider must be clearly visible for the PS classes aka the corbin rig. Sorry about that, but still trying to figure out where to mount nitrous. Paul | ||
| Blake |
Paul, You've not seen the pics of Aaron's S2 with nitrous? Can't find them right off. He put 'em under the tail section.  Aaron, where did you post your naked S2RR with bottles pics? | ||
| Aaron |
 Note the crash protection for the bottle valves, required by the rules. | ||
| Racerx |
Jss I'm sorry I read your post wrong. I just know alot of kids who run race fuel in stockers and totally ruins the performance. Anony that is a picture of Craig Jones, That was just after he switched from riding Hondas to Buell's | ||
| Aaron |
"I just know alot of kids who run race fuel in stockers and totally ruins the performance." I've personally never seen it ruin the performance. Generally when I've tried it, it hasn't done much of anything, even with timing & jetting optimizations for it. But a couple times I've seen a small boost. Seems to depend on the brand. | ||
| Jssport |
Madduck, 200 mph is possible on a 1350cc pushrod iff'n the Air-o-die-nam-iks is right. IMHO, aerodynamics is more important than HP at the target speeds we are discussing (200 mph). Getting 180 mph out of our 100 ci Roadkill nekkid required just pure brute HP. To get it to 200 mph nekkid would require almost double the HP. I've got my eye on Tatro's full fairing as shown in the Air-Tech catalog. It aways comes back to drag -vs- thrust. Even with a very slippery fairing, that 1350 would need some extreme HP to reach 200 mph. Jim S | ||
| Jssport |
So back to my original question: Would this methanol gas mix provide an advantage over straight race gas ? Would this require radically different timing and jetting? Jim S | ||
| Jssport |
Madduck, What do you mean by this? "One option would be sprtster motor and streamlining, but you don't get that many runs in with the wind situation on the salt." | ||
| Madduck |
Jim, I know a guy who has an F4 drop tank, he been saving it to build a streamliner out of. The motorcycle streamliners can only run with a crosswind velocity of less than 2 or 3 mph. Those favorable wind conditions are not often available. I may be wrong on the exact wind velocity, but the right wind condition are infrequent and can go away during a run. My friend is getting along in age and we may try to build one anyway. The S2 is pretty well proportioned to fit this tank. Getting it by tech inspection would be very interesting also. Paul | ||
| Blake |
Actually, using the V3 relation to calculate the HP required to increase top speed you'd only need (200/180)3=1.37 or 37% more HP. So, what kind of SAE RWHP was the nekkid beast making? | ||
| Aaron |
FWIW, they dyno'ed at about 142 SAE hp at my place last year, and they subsequently went 167 at Bonneville. But they were geared too short and he was revving it past it's power peak. And then after the event they found a scuffed piston, so perhaps they were down on power during competition. And I'm sure they were tuning on it between the rebuild and the 180mph pass, which was done at sea level on pavement earlier this year. So there's all kinds of variables. Just adjusting for altitude, the same power that supports 180 at sea level would support about 171 at Bonneville, where you have roughly 86% the real power. 'Course, that doesn't consider the reduced wind resistance or increased wheelspin losses you see at Bonneville. I'll predict 175. For a guess on the power to go 200, well, let's assume 175 is doable on 145hp. 200 will then take 216hp with no aerodynamic improvements. I remember last year Metty's bike was running about the same speed at both Maxton and Bonneville. Surprised me. I can think of a half dozen possible explanations, but I don't know enough about his program to say for sure. | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, I've talked with a bunch of people that race around the country including at altitiude. The really good ones believe that weather compensation is more important than hp loss due to air density. You do have less hp but the weight of the air your pushing is less too and it isn't as sticky???. We're bringing a weather station with us for carb tuning!! It would be interesting to try and calculate a crossover speed where the hp loss is compensated by the density of the air your pushing. We're going with the more is better, and run what you brung. I agree with Barbie "Math is hard"!!!! Paul | ||
| Jssport |
Blake, don't take me so literally, , I'm trying to illustrate that 180mph to 200 mph would require a substantial HP increase, easier to make the bike less of a flying brick and only increase HP somewhat (as in NO2). Most people who've race at Maxton get comparable speeds, the amazing thing is that jetting used at Maxton is the same jetting you end up with at Utah, maybe 1-2 size difference. Metty had the attitude that altitude difference didn't really make that big of diffence. Jet for sea level, you might be a little rich starting out at Utah, then lean it out 1 jet at a time. If I remember correctly, he used the very close to the same jets at Maxton and Utah, I believe Dale also had the same/close jetting on his bike. Roadkill's main problem last year was fuel starvation and we have fixed that, I believe if we can get 180 at NC, we can get 180 at B'ville. So once again, is the gas/methanol mix worth pursuing ? | ||
| Madduck |
Jim, How expensive is this mix?? Get a quote and/or price on say 5-10 gallons. Bring it along and between the bikes out there we can figure out whether any of us want to run it next year. I plan on running in m-pf at some point this year and would be glad to help buy some. I would guess that 80% of the advice i get is bs, but you cannot tell which is the bs until you've chased it around for awhile. Paul | ||
| Blake |
With all else being equal, aerodynamic drag is proportional to air density as is engine power output, right? So wouldn't the decrease in aerodynamic drag at altitude offset the engine's decreased power output on a one for one basis? That would agree with seeing the same speeds at Maxton and Bonneville. Interesting. | ||
| Aaron |
Except that drag is a square function. You need one factor of Power just because more speed (same distance/less time) takes more power, then traditionally you have two more factors for drag, hence the cube function, right? You're saying the lower air density removes two factors? Or one? Perhaps we should, when relating to sea level performance, use a square function? i.e., correct the power for the elevation change, then assume the speed at that elevation tracks the square root of the hp loss? I gotta think on this some more. | ||
| Madduck |
Aaron, Why don't you bring your beasty to sea level at maxton next year. I think this discussion could eat up valuable time right now. I do apoligize for distracting the group at this late date. This is however a contact patch issue also!! I really like the idea of generating some experimental data with bikes at both Bonneville and Maxton. Paul |
