| Author |
Message |
    
Daves
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 10:17 am: | 
|
We are planning on playing with a Firebolt motor this winter.
Ride to the edge!
Dave
HD/Buell Cycle Center
4022 Sergeant Rd
Waterloo Ia 50701
1-800-342-7539 ext 14 |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 04:50 pm: |
|
Quote:
"As I understand it, the inertial loads governing valve float on pushrod engines are on the valve/spring side of the rockers, not the pushrod side."
Certainly, the lever ratio decreases the force necessary to return the pushrod and lifter back to the cam face, but it does not cancel it. Except for gravity, the only force acting on these components is provided by the valve spring.
There has been lots of development over the years to lighten these items as much as possible. Don't you remember Mert Lawill lightening the lifters on his XR750 in "On Any Sunday"? (Could have been a KR750 but I'll stand by my point)
It was supposed to give him some extra rpm on the straights. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 01:01 am: |
|
DJ,
I also recall that Mert had a lot of DNF's that season.
What I mean by "governing valve float" is that you could make the pushrod side out of unobtanium near massless super-light composite material, but the valves would still float due to their own mass/inertia and that of the springs and rockers. Big valves, big springs it is a difficult battle to win. Make the springs bigger, their mass increases as well. |
Bullitt
| | Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 09:01 am: |
|
Computer controlled valves are already in mass production on the big BMW V8. The engine has no throttle plate. Engine speed is controlled entirely by varying valve lift. |
Bullitt
| | Posted on Sunday, September 15, 2002 - 10:57 am: |
|
Besides, more power is easy to get. The American Sport Bike sticker on my shock can is worth at least 20HP! |
X1glider
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:33 am: |
|
Bullit: you don't happen to have a link to anything on that Beemer do you? I'm interested in reading up on it. I don't know Beemers, which model is it? |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Monday, September 16, 2002 - 11:57 am: |
|
X1,
The Beemer actually doesn't have a fully servo controlled valve actuation. The VANOS system still uses cams, chains, and valvesprings. The 745i uses this system.
http://www.bmwusa.com/welcome.cfm?page=&bottom=0
The only engines I know of that use this technology right now are in F1 cars. The Renault engines use pneumatic valves.
http://www.renaultf1.com/html/index_home_eng.htm
I think the Sportster engine would be perfect for this because it only has 4 valves to control and we're not talking outrageous rpm to keep up with. Pneumatics might not be the way to go, perhaps solenoids or maybe some other motive force. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 04:27 am: |
|
DJ,
"Pneumatic valves" simply refer to the air pressure springs being used in place of conventional coil springs. The F1 cars still use cams. It's funny how rumors propagate. Obviously, the term "pneumatic valves" is misleading. It should be "pneumatic valve springs." I thought the same thing when I first heard the term. Our engines could certainly benefit from pneumatic valve return, unfortunately I'm not sure if that technology is currently suitable for a long life on the street. Maybe in the future.
I wonder if some type of desmo system could be made to work with hydraulic lifters? |
Djkaplan
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:55 pm: |
|
Quote:
"It's funny how rumors propagate."
Sorry, I was not aware the Renault engine still used cams to dictate lift and duration. That's one rumor that got nipped in the bud quick.
How far could this stuff be off though? Certainly the variable lift and duration systems (BMW's VANOS and Honda's V-TECH) and Renault's pneumatic valvesprings are the first steps to realizing this technology. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:57 pm: |
|
DJ,
Like I said, I mistook the term "pneumatic valves" exactly as did you. Someone else on the board I think brought the facts to light some time ago. Renault isn't alone in running a pneumatic valve return system. I think most all of the F1 engines are running them. Pretty sure Ferrari, BMW, and Mercedes are too. |
Bullitt
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:09 pm: |
|
DJ - actually, the Beemer system I was referring to isn't double vanos, it's "Valvetronic". The vanos system refers to hydraulic phase adjustment of the camshafts - the new system gives the computer complete control over intake valve lift. It still requires a valve spring and a camshaft (and interestingly enough, includes double vanos for the cams) but it really is a big leap forward in a non-racing, regular production engine. The computer can vary intake valve lift in this engine from 0.0 - 9.7 mm of lift and move through the full range in only 300 ms. The most astonishing part is the elimination of the throttle altogether, and the efficiency benefit that pays. http://www.bmwgroup.com has some diagrams and pictures. I'd love to see this trickle down into motorcycles - imagine an engine that starts easily with little valve lift and overlap, yet when cranked open has the same lift/duration characteristics as the hairiest cams around. It's been said Buell is an engineering driven company. They came forth with several "firsts" on the Firebolt. If they applied that kind of out of the box thinking to their powertrains, their racing situation might be completely different. |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:50 pm: |
|
But Bullitt, the valvetronic system benefits only nonracing applications. Racing applications simply use the hot cam, disregarding any concern for low end performance.
The valvetronic system does not vary duration or overlap. It simply scales the existing cam profile. The animated graphics at BMWgroup.com are excellent. When the page loads, click on the "Mixture intake low" then "Mixture intake high" links to see how the basic valvetronic mechanism functions. |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 10:32 am: |
|
Maybe a high belt driven cam beside the cylinder with hydraulic lifters directly actuating rockers would be better...taking the BMW and MotoGuzzi designs a little farther. I like simplicity. Mechanical designs tend to fair better than systems that are purely computer controlled in the event of a failure. I'd rather be able to limp home than be stranded because of a "sick" computer. |
Bullitt
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 18, 2002 - 08:05 pm: |
|
Rick, I agree. Simplicity is good. But, I'm not ready to switch back to points and condensers. What is super high tech today, is old hat tomorrow.
Sorry, Blake...I was dreaming out loud.
Valvetronic doesn't need to control overlap - variable cam phasing does that. Seems like direct control of intake valve stroke would give the same net effect as greater duration - more complete cylinder fill, and working in concert with changing cam timing still preserve torque for good drive off corners. Maybe it could be employed as a traction control device. Or, I could just be out in left field.
Man, what I wouldn't give to know what Buell is planning. Dreaming again: Picotte checking out on the whole AMA Superbike field on a very fast Buell. Race after race. No pinching, please. |
Blake
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 12:21 am: |
|
Quote:"Seems like direct control of intake valve stroke would give the same net effect as greater duration - more complete cylinder fill..."
Not quite. Volumetric efficiency is greatly enhanced at high speeds through significant overlap of intake and exhaust valve openings.
Picotte? You mean Cicotto, right?  |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 09:51 am: |
|
How about the Bostrum brothers on matching Buells? Ben started his racing career on an 883... |
Bullitt
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 11:39 am: |
|
Bostrom, Ciccotto, Yates, my aunt Martha...whoever has the ability to get out front.
Is anybody else excited about Nicky's big promotion? Yeah, it isn't Buell, but a talented young American going to the big show, none the less. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Thursday, September 19, 2002 - 02:36 pm: |
|
Yes, good for Nicky, but Colin deserves that seat waaaaaaay more than Nicky does. |
Jscott
| | Posted on Monday, October 28, 2002 - 12:49 pm: |
|
Whats our chances at seeing a Firebolt racing in AMA next year? I think the only class it's been ok'd for is 750 Superstock. Not very likely to be competitive in that class. Also as a side note does anyone remember reading that Harley was interested in GP racing in a Cycle World column several months ago. |
Sweetdaddyd
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 11:33 am: |
|
Solenoids have the ability to replace the camshaft to open valves. The problem is the quick opening and closing aren't as gentle as the cam profile allows for, wearing quickly on the valve and seat. The university of Michigan (and I'm sure several others) have some software developed to help out on this but it is still in development. Speed is definatly an issue. Especially when valves may be opening 100 times per second. This months "wards auto world" (either that or the "Smithsonian" had an excellent article on this and other fuel saving technology. They fell that it should be able to see production in Automobiles by 2008.
Keith |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Friday, November 01, 2002 - 11:10 pm: |
|
January 2001:
Lack Of Advance Notice of AMA Rule Change Costs Racers $3000 Each
Racer Details Woes Caused By Lack Of Timely Rule-Change Notice By AMA
Buell Motor Company Knew About Proposed AMA Rule Changes In Advance Because Company Chairman Called And Asked AMA Officials
AMA Pro Racing CEO Plans To Move Pro Thunder Class Entirely To Regional Level In Future, Ducati Official Says
Late Pro Thunder Rule Changes Make Former AMA Pro Racing Official Ask, "What The Hell Was The AMA Thinking?" But AMA Pro Racing Boss Denies Criticism Is Valid
AMA Pro Thunder Champion Nash Condemns AMA Decision To Run Pro Thunder Races With WERA National Challenge Series
February 2001:
Roadracing World Reader (And Racer) Takes Exception To Erik Buell’s Endorsement Of AMA’s “If They Don’t Ask, We Don’t Tell” No-Advance-Notice-Of-Rule-Changes Policy
Road America Officials Not Happy About Losing Pro Thunder, Weren't Told By AMA Officials Until December
March 2001, a summary of everything that happened above:Inside Info - March 2001
Buell Riders Talk About AMA Pro Thunder Rule Changes
June 2001:
Pro Thunder Icon Don Tilley Disappointed At Treatment Of Class
November 2001:
What Went Wrong With The VR1000
December 2001:
A Pro Thunder Racer Asks A Very Good Question
January 2002:
Montano wins 2001 Pro Thunder Title
March 2002:
Buell Makes It Official: Five AMA Pro Thunder Rounds Only In 2002
Ciccotto's View Of Racing Buell Firebolt In AMA Superstock
Former World Superbike Rider Kirk McCarthy Joins AMS Ducati
June 2002:
AMA Pro Racing Announces Proposed Rule Changes For 2003: Pro Thunder Out, 250s And 1000cc Superbike Fours In
July 2002:
AMA Pro Thunder At Laguna Seca: Mike Ciccotto Wins The Race, Kirk McCarthy Wins The Championship
Confirmation Of AMA Pro Racing View: If It Isn't At An AMA National, It Does Not Exist
October 2002:
BMW Boxer Cup To Replace Pro Thunder At Daytona
Erik Buell Comments on BMW Boxer Cup Replacing Pro Thunder At Daytona
A Comment On Pro Thunder |
Blacksix
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 12:07 am: |
|
What the hell is the AMA doing? |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 02:10 am: |
|
Not AMA, AMA Pro Racing. It seems pretty obvious that AMA Pro Racing is run by dishonest idiots and/or scam artists. |
Ramon
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 01:55 pm: |
|
I just read the comments made by Erik in the RRW article. I can understand his frustrations, but why would he say:
"We’re not in racing to win or dominate. We’re in there to compete and have fun".
Though this attitude is noble and very humble, I expect the CTO of my favorite motorcycle company to say "we believe in our bikes, we are here to race and to win"...
I am being too competitive?
Does he really not care about winning? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 05:48 pm: |
|
I think if you take things too seriously they become work instead of hobbies. |
Ramon
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 06:01 pm: |
|
I think in Erik's case, this is work.
No? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 07:37 pm: |
|
Yeah, but he probably doesn't want it to feel as such. |
Anonymous
| | Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 10:37 pm: |
|
I don't often look in on this stuff, but figure even a rare visitor can make a comment, right? I mean, I may not be that bright, but I've seen a few pretty stupid posts here, so you can deal with this one...
In regards to the Roadracing World article, the quote should have been "We are not racing to win ALL THE TIME or dominate...", since that doesn't make for good racing. How do I know that? ...hmmmmmm
Buell's Pro Thunder bikes earned respect the hard way, against the competition. Don't ask someone like Jose, ask the guys who raced against them. And despite AMA's comments to the contrary, there were many intensely exciting Pro Thunder races, with wheel to wheel racing between different brands. Better than many superbike races.
Why weren't people aware of the class? Because the guys involved in the class didn't have the money to buy endless ads touting "600 Supersport racing", or "Superbike". The fact is, it's a shame to lose the class, and even more of one to see it replaced by a parade of slugs.
And then we hear "Why doesn't Buell just make what the AMA wants them to make?" What, today or tomorrow's AMA desires? Screw building bikes just to satisfy a bunch of rules committee members. And to those who are waiting for Buell to make 600cc Supersport bikes, or 1000cc four cylinders, don't hold your breath...on second thought, maybe you should. |
José_Quiñones
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 08:56 am: |
|
Quote:the quote should have been...
Are you gonna call RRW back and correct this?
Quote:Don't ask someone like Jose, ask the guys who raced against them.
I have talked to some of the guys that raced against them, and they were indeed very complementary about the Buells. But I guess if the only reason you are even there racing your DUC 748 or SV650 at an AMA national is because Buell put up the money to keep the class going you would be pretty complementary too.....
As for the fans, my observations of fan reaction to the Buells at Mid-Ohio in 2000 and Summit Point/VIR in 2001 mirror what the AMA's fan surveys have found: PRO THUNDER was the least popular class of them all.
Quote:Why weren't people aware of the class?
TV exposure would help. 250 GP was not popular either, but at least they got their races shown on Speedvision. Pro Thunder only got a little highlight package during the 750 Supersport coverage.
Buell did spend money on full page ads in RRW, remember the "PRIDE OF THE PODIUM"...... I guess touting the fact that you got a lot of podium finishes, but not the most wins or any of the five championships is not something most people would think of congratulating yourself over.
Suzuki only waits till they win the 2002 600, Formula Xtreme AND 750 SS championships before they place an ad like that.
However, I will say this: Henry and all the riders, mechanics and everybody else involved in the Tilley and Hal's teams worked hard and gave it their best shot, so if you want to spend money on a full page ad in RRW congratulating them for their efforts that's fine by me.
Quote:were many intensely exciting Pro Thunder races
Exciting Pro Thunder Races? There have been a few, particularly the one where Mike started last and came back to win. Kirk did something similar this year too. But there have been WAY more exciting 600 (Last lap at Brainerd two years ago) and Superbike races than Pro Thunder Races, here's why:
The typical Pro Thunder Race went like this: Buells start strong and lead the first few laps, with the Ducs in close pursuit. Then one of the Buells would break down, then the other would break down or crash, and Tom or Kevin or Kirk would inherit the lead and win going away with the rest of the finishers made up of privateer Ducs and Sv's and one or two Lightning spec Buells.
Did Shawn H. even finsish a race this year? I felt bad for him, he worked so hard helping to develop the Firebolt, but he never managed to FINISH any of the races he was on it this year.
Still, 2002 was Buells best year, they finished most races (at least Mike C. did), but nobody had anything for Kirk's Ducati until Laguna Seca.
For Formula USA (which is not on TV either), at every one I have been to (Pocono 2000/2002, Summit Point 2002), the start of the 600 race has been delayed because somebody's BUELL spilled oil all over the track. At Summit Point, this caused enough of a delay that they could not get the 600 race in before the thunderstorm hit, and they tried to rush the start of the 600 race to beat the rain.
Pass this on to FUSA: Race the Buell Lighting Class Last, so you can clean up the track without the rush.....
Quote:And to those who are waiting for Buell to make 600cc Supersport bikes, or 1000cc four cylinders, don't hold your breath
A COMPETITIVE, SMOOTH, OIL TIGHT, RELIABLE 1000 CC Vtwin that could compete with an RC51, Aprilia or Ducati would be nice........
Bottom line, don't try to race an ORANGE against a bunch of APPLES. IT MAKES YOU LOOK SILLY WITH THE FANS, who also happen to be your potential customers.
HD at least had the common sense to build an APPLE (the VR1000) to race the other APPLES. It wasn't a very good APPLE, but it met the AMA's rules without any special "breaks" like the Pro Thunder Buells got, and it helped to sell lots of tickets to HOG members at Road America, Daytona and the other tracks....... |
X1glider
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 03:29 pm: |
|
It's obvious AMA pro racing needs to be gutted and start from scratch. Screw pitting bikes against each other because of displacement and number of cylinders and design type. The classes can only be kept competitive if it is done by horsepower limits. Why not have classes in 25-30 HP increments? If a bike, any bike, fits into that category, race it. It seems to be the simplest solution. The 2nd simplest one would be to only race bikes off the showroom floor, with the only mods being safty wire, race plastic and removal of lights and mirrors.
Those 225 HP V-5's and I-4's need to relegated to "indianapolis" type status and quite frankly have their own races in another completely different organization. After all, they're not real bikes, not to us anyway. |
|
Future of Buell Racing? »
Archive through November 04, 2002