| Author | Message | ||
     Careyj |
Wow I wonder where they got that idea from???  | ||
| Typeone |
Seems like the whole crop of Japanese bikes have pipes like this now. How lame when a wave like that washes over all the mainstream bike makers... check out the new Kawi Ninja 650 Twin too. | ||
| New12r |
moto gp inspired? | ||
| Tank_bueller |
They had to stick that "side" thing on there to sidestep the Buell patent/copyright???? | ||
| Glitch |
Looks like a passenger may not like the position of that "side" pipe. I wonder what the aftermarket will bring. | ||
| Kevyn |
If I remember what the article in Sport Bikes said, that 'pipe' is coreless...just used to vent the exhaust and add 'bling'... I also notice that the new FZR-1 has an adjustable front end---rebound on one leg, compression(?) on the other--just like the M2. ...right out of the Buell play book...6 years ago. | ||
| Koz5150 |
From Cycle World Nov 2005 Page 30 "In a move that must make Erik Buell feel vindicated, the 650R-like the new YZF-R6 and GSX-R600 and 750-features an under-engine silencer". Also there is a article about the XB12Ss on page 34, a Tsukigi Buell Racing Pipe review on Page 87 (it got a bad review), and a long term checkup on their XB12S which after 5005 miles has had $0 in repair costs even though it has been treated as a "wheelie monster". On the XB12S they also state "(it) continues to hum along despite being hammered by a variety of riders and friends of the magazine" | ||
| Koz5150 |
On the other hand there is a leter on Page 20 which a reader writes in how he went to a HD dealership to find out about the Uly right after the last issue came out (it had a nice write up on the Uly) and was left alone to climb on the bikes in the shop with no one coming over to offer assistance. He walked out and kept his BMW. Bummer... Hey Dave, maybe you should call him and see if he wants to buy from you? | ||
| Daves |
got his number?  | ||
| Blake |
Carey, Koz, Darn you beat me to it! Thanks for posting that info.  It only took Japan Inc 12 years since the release of the Buell S2 to see the light. What was it that the ZTL brake naysayers were spouting, "if it worked, everyone would be doing it"? I'd similarly expect to see the perimeter mount brake showing up in another ten years or so, if, and that's a big "if", the Japan Inc engineers can figure out a way to accomplish it without infringing upon the Buell patent. Gotta love it. Great to see the little Motorcycle Company in East Troy be so influential in driving the technological advancement of the sport bike industry; underslung mufflers on the GSX-R600, GSX-R750, and YZF-R6; how radical, unless you are a Buell enthusiast that is. Was also interesting to read Kevin Cameron's column in the same issue of CW. He discusses the superior performance of a bike that is tuned for strong midrange versus outright peak HP. That's nothing new to us Buell enthusiasts. Another quote from the same issue of CW, but from page 30 under the "Suzuki Fights Back" article by Matthew Miles...
Interesting that though Buell has offered that same exact technology for decades, now that it shows up on a Japan Inc sportbike, it is suddenly "radical." (Message edited by blake on October 01, 2005) | ||
| Johnparts |
Well it just tells me we are winning the race here and there is a article in bike about the xb12r being the #1 handling bike in the world over 49 other bikes Way to go Erik congrats on making one we all love | ||
| Oldog |
Blake: is it me or does that swing arm look a little like an XB swing arm? IMO, the big $4 are good at improving on Ideas I bet there are guys over in Japan disecting every other bike that is any good to see what they can glean wonder when the fuel or oil in frame will show up. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Buell didn't invent under engine exhaust, but he sure put it in everyone's face. It makes more sense than undertail exhausts to me. Interesting enough, I was looking at a Formula singles race bike today. 660 Single with a modified Yamaha frame. It had the fuel in the frame and was built in 1993. Vik | ||
| Djkaplan |
I'll really be shocked and amazed when the new GSXR comes out with pushrods. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Hey Vik, I was at the AMA motorcycle hall of fame in Pickerington for a group ride (that never happened because I apparently can't grasp the complexities of reading a calender, but thats a different topic) and I think they have that bike on display there. It was cool looking, and looked like it could have been a lot older then 1993, but I don't remember for sure. It just put the fuel in the crossbar though, little or nothing in the downtubes, and all still above the engine. If you look at it, it was more about "making the gas tank a stressed member" then "putting fuel in the frame" if you know what I mean. The XB really did a killer job of keeping all that fuel weight down low and way forward. It's brilliant. As for pushrods, I believe the current constraint on top performance for XB's is the cylinder to piston relative velocities for a twin. Buell can either go to a seriously oversquare configuration which buys revs at the cost of low end torque, or stick with the current low end torque tuned configuration. I don't think pushrods represent any kind of liability on a street oriented twin, and represent significant advantages (no valve adjustments). But you are right, if Buell ever does come out with a XB88RR hyper oversquare and barely street legal racebike, then the pushrods will probably become a liability. For my street bike however, I love them. It will be interesting to see what happens with the whole catyletic coverter thing, and how it impacts costs, maintenance, and packaging issues on race replica hyper bikes. You know these makers fighting to trim grams here and there are hating having to find a hole to put those things. | ||
| Bomber |
it's an item of interest to Org Devlopment folks and others how well a small group with the fraction of the resources of their competition can develop, implement, and ship unusual ideas far in advance of their larger, slower moving competition -- the Big fours engineers ain't any less smart than the elves, I'm thinkin, and obey the same laws of physics, I would guess -- however, the big guns tend to repeat successes, while the little guys are much more free to wander entirely off the page in search of good solutions to problems BMW, while certainly smaller than the big four, is a good example an exception proving the rule the big four also have a huge stack in not rocking many boats (the release of Yamaha's GTS, Honda's RUne, and everyone's street-going singles is a great example of large org's developing gun-shyness at a "failure" in the market place), and spending their energy and $$ on refining winning (in the marketplace) products, rather than changing them radically Skunkworks ROCK! | ||
| Eeeeek |
Reep, This had to have been a different bike. The guy was racing it on Sunday at Sears Point. The fuel went deep into the frame. Cool stuff, I'll have to get a picture of it. BTW, his single was putting out 82 rwhp and 58 ft/lbs! Vik | ||
| M1combat |
I just think it's great that Buell was able to design and implement no less than six industry shaping techniques and technologies and put them all into one bike. Not only did he do that... but he made it work exceedingly well. No engineering for engineering's sake at all if you ask me. There's a good reason for every bit of it. You're entirely correct when you say that Erik and Co. didn't necessarily come up with all of the neat stuff first Vik, but it's worth stating that Buell has been the first to properly implement all of the radical characteristics of the XB platform. The proper implementation is the important part. Everyone else that tried fuel in the frame or a perimeter mounted brake did nothing but make a light bulb that didn't work. Buell made them work and was intelligent enough to realize how to actually take advantage of them. Everyone else just mounted a rotor to the outside of a wheel and said "Yeah... That looks cool". Erik realized that you could reduce weight by removing the spokes from the path of the braking forces. He realized that you properly locate the mass of the fuel by running it around the outside of the engine as opposed to "hey look, we got rid of the gas tank" like others have done. He built a stable street bike with boat loads of torque and usable power using the geometry of a 250 GP bike. | ||
| Eeeeek |
Other's have made the fuel in the frame work. That's a fact. The perimeter brakes did not work effectively, in my opinion, until Erik lightened up the front wheel. He took an idea that was more about bling and made it much more practicle. Is it better than dual radial mounted brakes? I don't think so and neither do many Buell racers. It is a neat idea and I do wonder how it would work in a dual disk configuration. Vik | ||
| M1combat |
I agree that others have made the fuel in the frame "work" in that they can say "Look... The fuel is in the frame. Neat eh?". I don't believe that anyone has made it work quite so well up to now. Triumph used to run oil in the frame as well. I think their main goal was to eliminate the clutter that was caused by an oil bag. It "worked", but no one really ever put 2 and 2 together to REALLY exploit the advantages of the technique. WRT the perimeter brake... Yeah... The brakes themselves may not be quite as capable as dual radials on a racetrack. That's true. I've never said it wasn't. It does, however, work a great deal better at allowing the front wheel to stay planted on a not so perfect street environment which is exactly where it was designed to be used. It will indeed faceplant you at any speed you would care to get ham fisted with the brake lever at. Therefore... a dual ZTL rotor setup would merely delete most of the massive benefit that the single ZTL rotor provides. That being a HUGE reduction of un-sprung mass. You are correct that reduction of un-sprung mass isn't "quite" as important on a nice smooth racetrack, but my bike sees so far 100% of it's life on a street. All that said... I've never watched an IL4 FX bike with a conventional brake setup out brake a Buell into a corner when both riders did everything right. I have however watched many riders need to ride around more bumps than I do while riding the spars (my favorite canyon road). There are two corners that I can guarantee that I'll gain 5-8' on someone because thay have to completely murder their apex to avoid bumps and I don't have to. If they don't avoid those bumps, their bike hops out about 2'. Mine hops out about 5". If they're close to their limit when they do it... They meet Mr. guard rail. Game over. It's not engineering for engineering's sake. It's engineering for the real world. The world I spend 100% of my time in. When I get to the racetrack... I'll have less of an advantage given to me by my ZTL setup. That's fine. I still have the geometry advantage, but a power dis-advantage. It's all good. It's consistently proven that the XB platform is easier to ride fast (either that or the average XB rider is better than the average rider of any other make of motorcycle). I don't believe the latter is the case. I believe that the easily used power, the stability, the forgiving nature and the radical geometry all combine to make a bike that's extremely capable AND easy to ride fast. It's a package that inspires confidence. One can't go through a repli racer and an XB and say look... Everything about the XB is superior to the repli-racer. That's MUCH too simple of a comparison. We haven't even defined WHERE we are. Apparently, you're on a racetrack. I'm on a deep twisty canyon road. You know what that means? It means we may need different motorcycles. I've never said anything to the contrary. The thing is though... A motorcycle is no better than it's chassis will allow it to be. IMO, the XB chassis is the best one that's ever been created and produced in "mass" quantity. It slides well. It doesn't go from mild understeer to snap over steer (that has a lot to do with the mild mannered and useable engine I assure you). It's VERY forgiving over bumps that appear in front of you because they were obscured by the trees lining the side of the road. It's very responsive mid corner, even while sliding. It doesn't have so much power that no one this side of the name Rossi can really handle it anyway. It extremely flickable, yet stable at the same time. It's so fun to ride it literally makes me laugh out loud in my helmet sometimes. It's pretty subjective, but I have a Force pipe and a Drummer and I think it sounds better than ANY other motorcycle I've ever heard. On or off the racetrack. "The perimeter brakes did not work effectively, in my opinion, until Erik lightened up the front wheel." Exactly. There's more in that bag though. The radical geometry that the XB uses wasn't really viable for a street bike either until Erik realized that the big fly-wheels in the HD engine would help to stabilize the bike just like the zillion RPM 250 GP flywheels do on the racetrack. I keep the fact that the XB was designed for the street firmly in my mind. The repli-racers were designed for the racetrack. Those statements are not mutually exclusive. The repli racers do pretty well on the street (but not as well as a purpose built street fighter from Wisconsin), and the street fighter does pretty well on the racetrack (but not as well as a purpose built track fighter from Japan). That last statement however... The American street fighter still gives the Japanese and the Italians a GOOD run for their money in the corners (even takes their money often enough), it just doesn't have the power to connect the corners in a lazy, flowing and open environment like a racetrack. It can though . | ||
| Cataract2 |
^What he said. | ||
| Eeeeek |
This is a good debate, M1. Thank you. Many tracks are not as lazy and flowing as you may think. On the same vein, most of the tight twisties have many flowing parts, too. My favorite set of local twisties is called Mosquito Ridge road and no one would accus it of being open and flowing. Different bikes for different roles is an excellent point. I take such a firm ground on the repli racers as being great because they are. I do not beleive that given like riders, the one mounted on an XB would simply dust the one mounted on the 600RR. I think it would be a close race and the slight advantage would go to the 600RR because at aomse poit the road is bound to open up a little and the 600RR can exploit that advantage. In and out of the tight corners, it's gonna be close. And to anyone who says "I've dusted a <insert bike here> in the twisties, I've had my ••• handed to me by a guy on a Honda 305. I'll put him up against any bike. I've also destroyed people on <insert bike here> (including Buells) while riding a Confederate GT in the Twisties. Vik | ||
| Court |
>>>You're entirely correct when you say that Erik and Co. didn't necessarily come up with all of the neat stuff first Buell did apply for the patent (if memory serves and you can check this out and prove me wrong if need be) about 4 years prior to 1993. . . long before the resources to actually develop it for commercial use existed. Court | ||
| Fdl3 |
Good response, M1. I applaud Suzuki for their new exhaust design; I think it looks swell (and I am sure it is perfectly functional to boot).  I do not believe for one minute that Suzuki is moving toward an under-slung exhaust system because of Buell; however, I do find it plausible that Suzuki is marketing an alternative to the under-tail exhaust systems of its competitors: Yamaha and Honda. Anybody know if Suzuki has a catalytic converter stuffed in that under-slung box? And for a sanity check, no one seriously disputes that Buell did not "invent" certain concepts like "mass centralization", under-slung exhausts, fuel in the frame, oil in the swingarm, perimeter-braking; however, is it too much to ask to give credit to Buell for putting all of these concepts together in a single mass-produced, production-level street motorcycle?  | ||
| Jeremyh |
i would assume that the little black box if you look closely would contain a CC at least for the CA Emish. folks | ||
| José_quiñones |
I was at the Wheels Through Time Museum last year and ran into a bike with oil and fuel in the frame, and an under engine exhaust. The 1909 Pierce Arrow     More info can be found HERE carry on.... (Message edited by josé_quiñones on October 04, 2005) | ||
| Fdl3 |
Why, yes...yes it is! 1909 Pierce Arrow  I should have known Jose would be lurking not too far behind. Just how long have you had those pics for just such an occasion? | ||
| José_quiñones |
actually I posted those last year after the BRAG Running the Ridge rally. I don't know if this bike was the first with these "features" but I found it interesting so I posted them again after seeing the title of the topic. I did post without reading the whole thread  I have no problem giving Buell credit for putting all of these concepts together in a single mass-produced, production-level street motorcycle But the Pierce arrow was first, and there might be another older bike with those concepts that I'm not aware of. | ||
| Xlcrguy |
What is key to the "fuel in frame" patent, is the "break-away" steering stem, which makes it safe for road use. That is what is unique (and patented) in the XB frame. | ||
| M1combat |
"Many tracks are not as lazy and flowing as you may think." Many for sure... But I think it's safe to assume that most tracks have about seven to ten turns per mile. The fun canyon roads that I like are more like twenty turns per mile or more. Sometimes a lot more. Even the back side of the Spars run is very twisty. The speeds are elevated to 100 or more but for about ten miles or so there's maybe a mile or so of straight road. All of that in two straights... That road has tar snakes and bumps all over it. I've watched IL4 1000 riders try to put the power down there and they just can't. Granted, I've never really run that section of the road at full tilt because the reward for an error is just too great. It's still pretty much cliff/guard rail on one side and rock wall on the other. "I do not beleive that given like riders, the one mounted on an XB would simply dust the one mounted on the 600RR." Well of course not . But 1% is huge as long as you can consistently keep that 1% and not lose it anywhere. This is exactly where the ZTL brake comes in to play. Every once in a while I run across a guy riding a repli-racer that seems to know what he's doing. Hanging off properly, good lines, good brakes, good throttle control... A good even match for all intents and purposes... Then... We get to a couple key sections. One being a series of 90 degree right/left turns that are highly banked and marked 25 mph, then a 180 left that has some bumps and then another section of 90s that aren't banked. The road gets narrow there as well and there's a guard rail to the right that sits right about where the white line is (I've touched my shoulder on it... THAT'S some pucker factor right there...). I always gain about 10' there, mostly in the 180 left that has bumps. They have to stay outside or their front tire slides too much. The other is a ~250 degree right hand corner that drops about 30 feet or so. There's a set of ripples near the bottom that run across the entire inside lane. Just as the corner "straightens out" (it actually then turns hard left and you're then into one of the very few areas where you can go full throttle) it also levels. It throws you into the pavement. Here's the thing... I can keep my line nice and tidy right there because my bike just sticks to the rippled road. They have to stand it up just a hare, they move out about 2 feet and that absolutely murders their ability to flick it over to the left and get on the gas down that straight (unless they cross the double yellow). If they cross the double yellow I just back off and let them ride like they want to. You need to start the roll to the left JUST before the road ripples for about six or eight feet. Their tire doesn't stick and they can't roll into the left. That's where I pass them. That's engineering for the real world right there. That's engineering that allows an XB to make a pass in a straight VS a bike with more acceleration (and I weigh 220#). All that said... coming from Prescott the road is straighter and smooth. I can't quite keep up with the 600's when they're ridden right. I also don't like to... It requires 120MPH in areas where a car can pull out in front of you. No thanks. Coming from Wickenberg to the Spars... There are sections more than a mile long where the 600's will FLY by me like I'm standing still. I'm not willing to do much more than 10 over the speed limit unless that speed limit is 35MPH... then all bets are off. On a racetrack... You just don't see tight sections with that much elevation change (or even without the elevation change). The closest I can think of is Sears Point or maybe Mugello but even that's wide and flowing and I don't seem to remember anyone complaining of rippled pavement there. Keep in mind that on a road, we're staying in our lane. That means using what... 1/4 to 1/3 of a racetrack? Not only that, but on the spars I keep my head from hitting the gaurd rail (although I have bashed a branch coming around a right hander... I had a twig with leaves stuck in my visor that I didn't find until I got to town ), and I try keep my head on my side of the road. That limits the road I can use even more... On a racetrack, you can use all the road you want. A track would have to be VERY tight or VERY narrow to be as tight as "my" favorite canyon roads. I realize it's mostly about the rider. The only bike I've ever really tried to keep up with but couldn't was an old home brew super moto of some sort. It seemed like he was running a TON of RPM's though, so I'm pretty sure he had some work done to the engine. I was really just trying to get close enough to make sure he wasn't running knobbies  . That would have pissed me off . He was crossing the yellow anyway... At the risk of another beatlejuice incedent... Alan is always saying things like the BSA Goldstar comments... I find it tough to have a good conversation with someone who will say something JUST for effect (or it seems that way... who in their right mind REALLY feels that a BSA Goldstar will out corner an XB12S?). I doubt that Alan does at the least. |
