| Author | Message | ||
     Mikej |
damn. if that don't wake someone up then nothing will. | ||
| Jmartz |
Tripper, my thoughts exactly... | ||
| Jmartz |
On the issue of dealers I must say that personally I've never had any problems. I bought my bike from a dealer in another state that no longer carries the Buell line. My bike was not a lemon and since I do my own mechanics I've been immune to shop related problems. Living in Atlanta is great for 20% off sales. With 5 or 6 dealers close by they tend honor each other's sales so quarterly or better you can get things for 1/5 less. They even order stuff from the aftermarket during these sales. I never buy except during sale time unless its an emergency. I recognize that many of us are at the mercy of service departments and warranty concessions. It is well established that certain systemic problems (the recalls) needed to be corrected (I never did any, I like taking risks) and those with 1999 FI bikes are perhaps the most unhappy of us all. Service related issues aside my concern about the immediate future of Buell is the current product offering. With just two bikes an entry level and a middleweight with superbike price it just doesn't seem likely to me that motorcycle fanatics are going to foucus their interest on the brand. What brought me in was the S1, a naked, domestic, factory built hot rod with lots of potential. Like it often happens the products began to change in the direction of comfort and lower end componentry to hold down prices and attract a larger clientelle. Maybe this approach will help Buell reach their business goals but personally I'm still waiting for that new bike that looks fabulous and goes faster than mine... | ||
| Elvis |
Why can't "throw the batards out" be part of a logical solution? I'm sure that Harley Davidson has some system for logging customer complaints and determining if they are valid and/or surveying customers to determine their level of satisfaction. If they look at their history of valid customer complaints and analyze it statistically, certain dealers must come out on the bottom just as Modesto comes out on top. For example, let's throw out a (completely made up) number of 75 complaints and imagine that 90% of dealers have fewer than 75 legitimate complaints per year, but 10% have more. They could put all those dealers with more than 75 on probation. If, during that probationary period, they still have more than 75 legitimate complaints, they could limit the number of new bikes the dealer is allocated and, if they continue to have problems, eventually revoke their license entirely. Over time, they can raise the bar (so to speak) by reducing the number of allowed complaints to 70, 65 etc. If the system is managed correctly, the threat will be enough to shape most dealers up, and hopefully no one will ever actually lose their license. The ones who do will have deserved it. For all I know, a system like this may already be in place. If so, the standards obviously aren't currently strict enough based on the general level of dissatisfaction I have heard. If anyone knows how this is currently handled, I'd be interested in learning more. With the kind of waiting lists that exist for HD bikes, a dealership license should be considered a privelage that dealers should work to maintain. Maybe HD could even use this system to reduce the levels of mark-ups dealers charge. If the dealers don't like it they can always close their doors. I'm sure there are many customer oriented entrepeneurs out there who would like a shot. | ||
| Court |
I'm not arguing, I'm asking: 1) What makes you think Modesto is rated in the top tier? PLESE do NOT infer they should no be....I am just saying what if the system measures "weight" in "inches" 2)>>>privelage that dealers should work to maintain." And, are not afraid to band together in groups, that barely pass muster on the Sherman Act (15 U.S.C. §§ 1-7) to threaten suit if Harley-Davidson tries to enforce certain sanctions (see NY/NJ Dealers Association) 3) >>>Maybe HD could even use this system to reduce the levels of mark-ups dealers charge. Harley-Davidson has answered that "they are independant businesses (and argument I accept, by the way) and we have no power (not entirely true, as I have seen dealers issued "order xx Buells or have your 2003 HD allocation cut" ultimatums) to dictate practice. Interesting and you are about to elicit my "Customer Service: Metrics and Measuring Them" dissertation. You've been warned. Court | ||
| Anonymous |
"throw the bastards out" I currently work for a company with a "punitive" mentality towards the employees as a means to "improve" things here. Trust me, it isn't a good way to improve things, it only leads to annimosity and a wide division between the favored few who abuse the system and seem to walk outside the rules and those who are expected to toe the line and play way within the lines. By working from a punitive/corrective point of view you are working from a hole you just dug yorself into. And guess what, when it rains, as it will (metaphorically and otherwise) all you'll end up with is a muddy pit and lost productivity and customers and lost employees. Instead, you have to work from an "improve the system" point of view. Read some of Deming's works on system improvements. I don't buy into all his works, but some of his stuff was right on the money in my opinion, as in "fix the system, not the people". Where do the complaints come from, and once defined at the source cause of the complaints, determine objectively if it is valid and if it can be improved to preclude the complaint from happening again, or decide if it's just a Cecilectomy and figure it's a lost cause and move on to other issues and complaints. For the Buell dealership problem, there is the company side, the marketing side, the corp sales side, the corp accounting/forecast/inventory/shipping side, the shipper's side (you know, those guys/gals in those big trucks), the warehousing side and middlemen/women, the dealership side, the dealership service department side, the dealership other issues side (inventory/ordering/sales/personnel/general business issues), and then you get to the first hand and second hand customer issues and all the aspects that that covers. Is it a product failure, a system failure, a customer failure, sabotage, or some other issue that has caused the problem. It ain't easy, and I just lost my train of thought, so I'll stop. Pay me $250,000 a year, total autonomy, free of restraints as to where I go and who/what I have access to, and give me a big enough hammer to enforce a few rules and empower a few changes, and even I could "improve the system". But it won't be easy, and I doubt they'd hire me anyway. Posted anon since the company snoops are lurking. | ||
| Elvis |
Court, Thanks for the input. 1) I don't know anything about Modesto, I only threw them out there because you spoke so glowingly of them. In fairness to other great dealers I should have never made the reference. 2) I was not at all aware of the legel action you mention. That may be a road block to my suggestion actually working, but I don't think it invalidates the concept. 3) They may be independent businesses, but a responsible manufacturer should not alow an incompetent distributor to sell their product. In fact under many legal structures manufacturers can be held liable for negligent behavior of their distributors. I don't buy the HD line that they have no control. Consider for a moment Harley Davidson employees. It is absolutely true that they are individuals who have rights to behave as they see fit, however they also have rules and guidelines that they most follow to continue to be employed by Harley Davidson. They are free to show up 30 minutes late every day if they choose, but they shouldn't expect to keep their job if they do. Anon, You make some very good points and I agree with nearly everything you say. In my psychology classes we learned that reinforcement was far better for motivation than punishment and I try to use that when I need to motivate employees. Perhaps we should turn my system around. Use the data gathered to rate dealers and give the best ones reinforcement. I don't think plaques will do, and I doubt there are cash reserves to be thrown about, so we come back to bikes. Give the best dealers more bikes. The result is the poorer dealers are getting fewer bikes which might be considered punishment and leaves us where we started, but I think that's primarily symantics. I actually think my original suggestion can be related to Deming. If we immediately terminated dealers, that would be like scrapping bad parts. By warning them that their performance isn't acceptable, you are flagging bad parts and allowing the dealer to bring their processes into control. If the problem is with the bikes and not the dealer, then we are in trouble, but I think most of us would agree that there are good dealers and bad dealers out there and the bad dealers need to be improved. My comments, as before are based entirely on ignorance of Harley Davidson's actual system. I'm sure they are at least trying to do some of the things I am suggesting, but it doesn't seem to be enough to satisfy the many many people who seem to be very frustrated with dealerships. If these people are seriously considering buying other brands because of that frustration, Harley Davidson needs to spend more time addressing the problem. | ||
| Elvis |
BTW, Court, I'd be happy to hear your "Customer Service: Metrics and Measuring Them" dissertation. From the title I assume it has to do with quantification of customer satisfaction, and I think, for the sake of this discussion, we need to imagine that there is some magic formula floating aroung that allows us to scan down a list and compare dealer's performance. But hey, feel free. Also, if I start to annoy you simply let me know and I'll shut up. I generally don't have any opinions, I just try to throw concepts out to get people thinking, and the "throw the bastards out" catch phrase was too juicy to pass up. | ||
| Jssport |
If all the "Bad" HD's were denied Buell's (it's my understanding that several HD/Buell dealerships want to dump the Buell line now) won't that just reduce the # of Buell dealerships. Restated, is it better to have 5 good/ 15 bad dealers, or just 5 good ones. How far are you willing to travel to a good one to just pick up a part? Or,... you could just fix the majority of problems yourself. True some fixes require a dealer but they seems to be a manufacturing problem from the Buell factory. (ie recalls) Jim S | ||
| Elvis |
Don't deny them Buells, deny them Harleys. Make the bad ones take more Buells as Punishment. (That's sort of a joke, here let me try to insert one of those silly faces for emphasis)  | ||
| Court |
The crux of the thing is that what PROVIDERS of "customer service" and CONSUMERS of "customer service" view AS Customer Service may vary. Example: Company "A" may think that "responding within 24 hours of a customers first contact" is "good" customer service and find out that they have a GREAT response rate (it would show dandy scores) but a low resolution rate. It's important that to PROVIDE great customer service we know the CUSTOMERS definition of "great", not what we impute or perceive it to be. In addition, I submit that "attitude is everything". How a customer feels AFTER being "served" had tremendous influence on their liklihood of continued loyalty and future commerce. Ever (and please don't assume any of this is HD or Buell related) had a dealer/merchant solve your problem but make you feel like a horse's ass? The corollary is that I have seen a genuine and sincere Erik Buell tell a customer "that's just the way it is" and the guy was THRILLED. He was part of the Buell "family" and the head of the family had told him to go away and tolerate it. It's not the solution, it's the feeling and the attitude. Again...we're talking thoery here. When I use Erik as an example, I have nothing specific in mind. Imagine, for instance, the S-1 seat. It...well, "was what it was". If your dealer tried to make it comfortable (like anyone could) and fed you a line of bullshit, you felt, well betrayed. If someone you trusted in the Buell community told you "shut up, ride it and faggedaboutit", you might feel good. I find I have a higher tolerance for "poor service" than I do dishonesty and maltreatment. Careful, I am abouty to go off here ........ I can tell you one thing with absolute certainly. Don't for one minute ever think Erik Buell wants anyting but OUTSTANDING service. When you see anything less from a Buell dealer, it's a shame. I assure you that Erik is PASSIONATE about complete and excellent service. Court | ||
| Elvis |
Court, Well said. Maybe someone should start a board on this subject and people could define, specifically, their complaints. One trap we may fall into may be that the people on this board are not at all representative of the general population. I would expect most badwebbers rquire a higher level of service than most people. They are out there riding every day, paying close attention and running into problems that many bikers will never see. I have not had any specific complaints, but I would say that Harley Dealers, when compared to other motorcyle dealers I have worked with, tend to be more arrogant and less accomodating. As you point out, that has more to do with the way they say things than the actual things they say. Buell really could be a key here. Up until now, many corporate people at Harley have probably thought: "Why should we improve dealers? We're already selling as many bikes as we can make." If Buells are sitting on the floor, that statement is no longer true, and now Harley has a higher profit mootive to improve dealers than they have in the past. | ||
| Aaron |
I have a bad customer service story to tell today ... I see this part for a Buell featured in a magazine. No part number or price though. I call the company, tell the lady on the other end I need info on the part "X" for a Buell that a saw in a magazine. She says she doesn't know if it'll fit a Buell or not and she'll have to transfer me to tech services, click (FYI ... it's a Buell specific part). I get the perpetual hold machine at tech services, finally I call back and try to explain to her that I *know* it fits a Buell and I really just want the part number and price. She says they don't make that part for a Buell, and transfers me to someone else. I explain to him that I saw it in a magazine and I'm interested in buying it. The response is "to the best of my knowledge, it's not available yet". WTF? Clearly, they really don't want to sell me this part. Hell with it, I'll find another way. (By the way, JeffB, if you're out there, it's the company you work for). | ||
| Elvis |
Court, Here's a perfect example of what you're talking about, XB9 posted this on another board:
Now imagine the same guy greeted him politely, said: "I'm sorry, we're booked up. The earliest I can look at it is Monday, but We'll give it top priority then." The result would be the same, but XB9 would have felt much better about it. That's a simple matter of training and Harley Making it clear that they expect their dealers to treat their customers with respect. | ||
| Turnagain |
who could possibly have a problem with the S1 seat, provided it's being properly ridden?   happy 4th! Steve(2) | ||
| Anonymous |
JeffB is in Europe somewhere for a couple of weeks I think. | ||
| Davegess |
Turnagain, that is how Erik intended it to be ridden!!!!!! | ||
| Court |
>>>>that is how Erik intended it to be ridden!!!!!! That was always my response to the pundits. And, frankly, the fuel capacity insured I'd stop for fuel every hour or so at which time I always spent 30 minutes answering questions from curious riders of other brands. I never had a problem with the S-1 seat. By the way...that picture is pretty much Erik's riding style, ever notice he hangs to one side while riding straight and level down the superslab? | ||
| Rd350 |
Dealers and the factory, What is the most important thing about buying a motorcycle from a dealer? It is return business. This is more important than anything else. Lets say if the average motorcycle rider buys 7 bikes in his/her lifetime. How much do you think they spends on parts and accessories??? This is were the dealers need to love and care for the consumer. This is were the dealers are going to make money from the consumer and they are going to keep coming back to that dealer. Somewhere along the line Harley Davidson got lazy and it shows at the dealer level. The dealers think that the bikes sell themselves. It is a yuppy thing going on for years. If you own a chopper you are cool. They believe that they do not need to help you. You will sit around and wait until they are ready to help you.. This is a total Bullshit attitude.. If you go into a dealer how long does it take for someone to help you? Most of the time the salesman is calling the factory for production dates and doesn't really care about the people on the salesfloor. And when it comes to Buells they don't give a shit. Buell buyers are not chopper guys. Most have owned other brands and are looking for something that is different and will turn heads when driving down the streets. And they will go somewhere else to buy a different bike if they are not helped... The Harley Davidson dealers are not and will not ever sell Buells properly to the public. If Buell is going to grow and become profitable they need to put Buell into another building away from H-D. How many times have consumers, for BUELL, gone into H-D to get parts only to have to jump up and down to get help at the parts counter or at the service counter... They have forgot about service, about taking care of the customer. Lets take a look at how BMW or Ducati or Triumph sells to the consumer. On average the sellsman runs over you to help you and sells you a bike. If you go to the parts or service counter there is always someone who says hello to you and how can they help you. These dealers know that you are important to their business. Most of these dealers are small. They want and need you to come back to them. This is what Buell needs.. Yes Harley Davidson needs to change the dealers on how to take care of the consumer.. Buell managements needs to learn that if they ever what to make the company grow they have to move it outside.. I have owned Yamaha, Honda, Kawaski, Suzuki, ATK, KTM, BMW, Ducati and Buell. I can truly say that Harley Davidson/Buell is on the bottom of how to take care of the consumer (note: I am not talking about recalls).. Buell it only takes one bad dealer, one pissed off consumer to lose all that money. Just think if that consumer bought all 7 bikes from you and all his parts from you. How much money did you make in the lifetime of that consumer? Instead the consumer goes off telling all there friends about the poor service and the consumer buys someone elses bike and never comes back to that dealer... Kiss that consumer's ass and you will make money for a lifetime.. Piss the consumer off and you lose not only them but there friends as well.... In the end it comes down to making money... Isn't that why you Buell are in the business? Or do you want to go away like the great dinasours.. | ||
| Raymaines |
X minus thirteen and counting. Tick, tick, tick, tick..... | ||
| Dynarider |
Great customer service would go a long way towards improving the reputation & eventually the sales of Buells. I have documented before the issues I have had with my X1 & some of the crappy & rude service that I received. Well I just had another issue with my bike the other day. I lowsided during a Battletrax event & only appeared to have bent the toe shifter. However about 300 miles later the trans starts acting up. Its jumping in & out of 2nd gear & justbasically almost unrideable. I check out primary chain adj & clutch adj & all seems well. Take it to the dealer on sat & the service writer starts telling me "I dont have any Buell techs here" I tell him, do you have anyone trained to work on sportys? He says "of course" I tell him its the same damn primary & trans, he asks me "what do you mean primary". How in the hell can a service writer not know what a harley primary is????? Anyways they take the bike & call me about 5 hrs later, "bikes all done, just needed some adjustments". I pay $63 & change & take the bike, dont even go 1/2 block & realize its no better than it was. Turn right around & go back to complain. The main man tells me that supposedly the mech who worked on the bike road tested it, I told him no way did anyone ride this damn thing. To make a long story somewhat shorter, I get a call yesterday, the shift fork is bent & had to be ordered, everything else appears normal. I cant wait to see if I am gonna get charged for more primary fluid & more adjustments that obviously were never needed in the first place. Bottom line is bikes break &Iunderstand that Ijust dont want to jump thru hoops & beg & plead to get it fixed. We need more qualified dealers out there. | ||
| Cro13 |
Someone at another Buell sight commented that a Race Kit for the XB9R would be introduced at this show. Does anyone here know if that is fact/fiction/wishful thinking? Thanks, Carter | ||
| Spiderman |
It may be fact, this would be the perfect time to release the XB race kit especially if the introduce the new XB M2/X1 Buell. This way they will just introduce the race kit for all both XB lines. | ||
| Dynarider |
The race kit for the XB is a fact. The Buell rep I spoke with a few weeks ago said it's the same as you get for the X1, pipe, race ecm, & filter. He was 99% certain it would be unveiled at the show, but if not then it will be soon. | ||
| Raymaines |
X minus twelve and counting. Tick, tick, tick, tick..... | ||
| Anonymous |
Buell reps. HA I don't know about the Buell Rep in your area (not saying your Buell rep isn't good) but the rep in my area thinks the M2 has three way adjustable front forks, a metal gas tank. And when he was "training" the sales people on the Buells he had to read all the basics you and i would know word for word off of a paper. | ||
| Dynarider |
The Buell rep I got the word from has been competeing in all of our local Battletrax events aboard a company Firebolt & has ridden the "new" bike. Also is very knowledgable regarding any & all repairs any of us have needed at these events. I trust him completely. | ||
| Anonymous |
Cool not that i doubted you just a warning cause ours is a complete DOUF!  | ||
| Court |
The Buell BZM's fall into those two catagories at the rate of about 50-50. Several are quite knowledgable and willing/able to help. Serveral haven't a clue. The "middle ground" is devoid of players. Curse me for saying so, but it's a fact. Court | ||
| Anonymous |
Yes it is, i had my face buried in my hand through half his spiel. By the end i corrected him so many times he just started saying "Is that right?" |
