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Djkaplan
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 09:49 am: | 
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Chain conversion on the XB is an expense to be considered also. It's a lot easier and cheaper on a tuber. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
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quote:But for a track bike (unless you're a serious competitor running for class championships and looking to go national) you'll probably gain more of an advantage with handling and suspension upgrades than bigger HP numbers.
Good point! With that being said, the XB certainly seems to have the advantage. The overall handling advantage & suspension capability might make for a better learning platform. The fact that its lighter helps too.
Still, though, for the casual club non-national level racer, the tuber's "crashability" & easier upgrade path has its benefits too.
Personally, I'm not seeing a clear winner. I'm on my sixth or seventh track day, and my bike (and old TUBER, M2) is track only. I'm still running stock suspension, and haven't learned enough to say its limiting me. I'm clearly still the limit, butI'm having plenty of fun anyway. I've passed much "faster" bikes than mine, and I've been passed by much "slower" bikes than mine.
Maybe the classic racing adage "run what ya brung" applies? You like & want to race Buells, get the cheapest track bike you can find. Learn, learn, learn. After a year or two, look again. |
Dsergison
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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What is the first things you would to to a tuber to make it race worthy? say an X1....
because that's what I'm running and I'm new to this. I don't WANT to be depressed at how a 600 can blow my doors off. P.S. I KNOW I am not raceworthy myself. I'm trying to learn.
I can't afford a dedicated track bike right now. I just want to learn to ride the thing. |
Daves
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 12:07 pm: |
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An X1,
Tires
Have suspension set up by a pro
Brake pads
Lots of track time!
The 600s will still get you on the straights. |
Uwgriz
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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True, but fortunately it won't matter though since they're middleweights and Buells are lightweights. |
Benm2
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
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Let me add to Daves list:
1. Safety wire the transmission drain plug & oil filter. If still available, call Henry Duga @ Buell and get a race belly pan. Most race organizations require one. I think you'll need at least an aftermarket muffler, I don't think the race pan will fit around a stock muffler. You'll probably want the Race ECM too.
2. Remove everything street related. Lights, kickstand, etc. All left hand controls can be taken off the bars. You might want the race S1 fairing too, as it covers the headlight hole.
3. Synthetic engine oil.
4. Updated primary chain tensioner.
5. Top-of-the-line brake fluid. Get the real goods, racing fluid. Carefully refill & bleed the front brakes, especially.
6. Not sure if the X1 uses the same wing-bolt to attach the seat, but if it does drill it for safety wire. You'll have to cut the wire every time you want to check your oil, but its better than your seat coming loose on the track.
Other things I did, as I'm a paranoid engineer. Also, some race organizations require them anyway:
a. Safety wire front & rear axles
b. Safety wire brake mounting bolts.
c. Remove primary cover, primary chain & sprockets. Adjust shifter pawls as per factory manual, and de-burr the star wheel. THOROUGLY clean the crank end primary sprocket nut & shaft. Really, really thoroughly. Water test them after you think their clean, just a drop of water on the threads. If it beads, there's still oil there. Bon-ami & a toothbrush can be used on the nut threads, and contact cleaner on the crank end. Then, use a NEW tube of RED loctite, and torque the s**t out of the nut.
As for brake pads, I use Ferodo CP911's, and have had good luck. With two fingers it feels like dropping an anchor.
I'd vote for Michelin Pilot Power Race or Pirelli Supercorsas for tires.
Also, a chain drive conversion on a tuber is a cheap proposition, should you so desire. |
Dsergison
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 01:02 pm: |
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Tires, -bona fide track tyres/warmers etc...?
Have suspension set up by a pro -working on a penske shock & traxxion springs.
Lots of track time! -trying!
LOL, the Flywheel nut NUT!!!! YES!!! been there. see my greif @ http://www.sergisonmachine.net/gallery_shop.html
new tensioner, check!
exhaust, Check.... and another story of greif!
synthetic oil, check!
brake fluid, I put in the best DOT4 autozone had. probably inadequate?
Brake pads, -currently running stock (haven't had problems. I don't know that I really need more stopping, but what do I know?)
(Message edited by dsergison on July 08, 2005) |
Daves
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 01:31 pm: |
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Good additions Ben |
Hobanbrothers
| | Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 07:43 pm: |
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Jeff has run our old tuber the same weekend as we ran our XB with similiar HP, I believe it was Vegas and it was 2 seconds a lap. Back to back with a pro (or at least he calls himself a pro-he also called himself a doctor once)
Go with the XB, if you have a racing license the mods with FI become fairly a non-issue. But there are many who can ride the wheels off a fairly stock XB with no race tuners kit.
Dont worry, buy a stock XB and go out and ride, work on setting up a suspension that works for you and put in laps!
Good luck to you. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 01:27 am: |
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I'm with Hoban, get a XB12 and run the wheels off it till you know what is holding you back. I put a bunch more hp ($$) into my old tuber and didn't lower my lap times at all while the guys that went for the new bike at the time, just went faster and faster. At the times Jeff runs, or anybody that fast, 2 seconds is HUGE. 15 laps and it's 1st vs 10th. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 08:42 am: |
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Keep the opinions coming, please. I do appreciate it. |
Racerx1
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
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Hey Rocketsprink,
Glad to see you have been bitten by the track bug! Your question is a little bit loaded, as a lot of people have already stated, when you start out racing you will see your biggest gains based solely on seat time and getting comfortable pushing the bike. I'm a little biased, but I wouldn't go for the kawasaki ZX6, not because the bike isn't a great racing platform (it is), but the 600 amature class can be a rough place to start a racing career. Huge spread of skill level and IQ in that class. The twins classes are a little more 'mature', theres some great racing, and the Buells are competitive. As far as a tuber vs. an XB, I've come off of 3 years racing tube frame Buells, including the ultimate development of that chassis (Michael Barnes old Twin carb 1350cc X1 Pro Thunder bike), and I can honestly say the XB is a better platform for a race bike, but its fairly close. A tube frame is definitely still competitive in Amature CCS classes its legal in, as witnessed by M2GUY's multiple podium performances. He's running a stock motor with a race slip on and put all his money in tires and suspension upgrades, and is definitely getting around pretty fast! The big problem with the tubers is ground clearance, as you will have to do something there (rear sets). Stock shock is OK, but a penske makes a huge difference. Forks again, are ok stock, but need springs at a minimum for anything more agressive than a track day. Front brake is good, but you have to run a premium fluid as there is a lot of heat build up. The twin disc set up is awesome (available from Henry Duga still), but adds a lot of unsprung weight. You can run a complete XB front end as another option.
The XB is pretty good right out of the box, and I think you can get good results by just spooning on race rubber and working on your riding. You can grow with your XB as well and make modifications as your riding requires it. Both bikes are good options initially, you will just hit the limits of a tube frame chassis quicker than you would an XB chassis.
From a financial standpoint, there are some decent deals on tubers out there. Also I wouldn't be too concerned about cosmetics. Crashing isn't a matter of if, but when.... If you go that route, I would look for a set up race bike that already has the upgraded shock/suspension/rear sets, etc to save yourself some time and grief (and $$$).
For an XB, I would start out checking out salvage yards. I found mine (2003 XB9) for 2500 bucks (looped over backwards in a wheelie gone wrong). XB12 gets the nod just because its more competitive in more classes than an XB9. I wouldn't touch the motor initially and just work on riding/suspension. The Buell frame pucks work amazingly well I'm afraid I have to say and are definitely worth the money! A lot of good information has already been said on this thread. I think you will have fun either way. If you can afford it, go XB. |
Sconley
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 10:37 pm: |
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Go with an XB! I had an older S1W and now ride a highly modified 750 (795cc) ducati supersport on the track. Don't pay attention to HP numbers, it's all in the chassis, the suspension and the rider. At a recent track day, I was riding in a group with a guy on a stock xb9, we were both decent riders and had a blast racing eachother as our bikes were pretty dead nuts even and I think we both learned a lot by the close competition. On the long straight, we would get our a$$es blown away by all the guys on literbikes... Only to stay on the gas while they braked for turn one, and pass them all back up on the outside (well 90% of the riders anyway). You will gain so much more knowledge and understanding by not relying on huge HP to make up for your slowness and lack of skill when things get twisty. The XB (like my 750ss at 393lbs wet) don't need to brake all that much... You just throw em down and hang on... We both were doing 120-130 in a 155mph straight, but the literbikes were all doing 60mph in a 90mph curve... We both got more satisfaction in that and I think you will too. Buy a stock XB, have the stock suspension set up as perfectly as you can as it really is a fine system (sag heights, etc), read a few books, make a plan, practice your plan, and watch your track times come in lower than guys riding bikes with 80% more HP... It's fun. |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 09:45 am: |
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I've never raced --- and probably never will.
However. I've seen 2002 x1w's with less than 5k miles sell for 4500.00! XB12's will cost a bit more than 6000.00. 1500.00 can buy you alot of track time and tires.
But in about 12-18 more months some killer deals on XB's will be in the used market. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 01:14 pm: |
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Wes, I know you're right on the money, and I appreciate EVERYONES opinions. The $$$ thing for me isn't a big deal, but my financial advisor...err...ahhh...my wife is the one that needs the convincing. She's all for the racing. Hell, I grew up at Blackhawk, Road America, Mid-Ohio, etc. (My Dad raced, Formula Fords, Sport 2000 and Formula Atlantic) Our 9 year old son LOVES motorcycle racing, and I believe that it's a family thing. XB would be great, but I will most likely start out on a Tube Frame because of the cost and availability. So with that in mind, what do you guys think the best candidate is for that. M2, S1, X1 ?? I'm leaning toward the X1, but was told to replace the valve spring right away. I know the S1 with the Thunderstorm heads would be a a great choice, but those seem a little harder to come by. HELP AGAIN! |
Ryker77
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 03:24 pm: |
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I had though the new x1's come standard with thunderstorm heads..
Anyways -- it will all depends on how long you want to look, price you want to spend, and distance your willing to travel to get the bike.
An 1998 S1W, open 3" exhaust, upgraded ignition, and a jet kit would be the best value. It would be a hassle with a fuel injection and all the problems that can arise. |
Daves
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 03:38 pm: |
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If it was me and I had decided on a tuber I'd buy Steve's bike he has for sale. |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 07:18 pm: |
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That is at the top of the list now. Only problem is I don't think it qualifies for CCS Sportbike lightweight division. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:30 pm: |
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That racer in the classified section is a SMOKIN' deal if you are set on a tuber. Heck the body and brake setup cost that much. Problem is you'll never know how fast you might have gone had you gotten an XB and a tuber is much more maintenance. It seems like comparing a really good hot rod Sportster to a tube Buell 8 years ago, no comparison.
What do you mean Sportbike LW? |
Rocketsprink
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Super Sport Light Weight class in CCS is based on Production Bikes that must have a VIN #. The bike in the classifieds is stamped "Race Use Only" which would exclude it from that class. I plan on starting at the bottom, not the middle or top. Check out www.ccsracing.com for all the rules and tech info. |
Sportsman
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 01:45 am: |
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No that bike will never run supersport. But neither could most hot rod tubers. I didn't check the rulebook but SS rules are pretty tight in so much as stock air cleaner boxes and such. Do not consider CCS Supersport as a starting class, it is not. Most LW superbike SV guys are changing a few parts to make them legal in SS. If you're planning a weekend at the track, plan on running at least 2 races every day. LWGP, LWSB, Thunderbike, and either supertwins or GT lights depending on the schedule. The VIN is the least of the concerns as long as there is a bill of sale traceable to the factory. (my old racer had no VIN)Most of the same guys run all those classes, including SS.
To be honest, I went my first time and only ran saturday, F40 and HW sportsman (now Thunderbike). Figuring OK it's an old guy class it should be safe and HW sportsman is later and I could chicken out if I wanted to. HA! Did almost the same in both classes. 6th and 7th. Next time I sighned up for sunday too and got wood in F40 on saturday and LW superbike on sunday. It's almost all the same guys. |
Rick_a
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
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Although arguably a stockish XB12 would be ideal, I'd have to go with an old S1. |
Slaughter
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 04:58 pm: |
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Rocket - check with the CCS race referee directly (he's the guy that is the final dictator on rules interpretations). They let me slide last year using my replacement chassis stamped "race only" as long as it was a "production" chassis. WSMC and WERA will also cut you some slack. The thing is OK if you're using a stock engine/chassis/suspension combo that was produced for street use in the US.
They're just trying to keep folks from cheating and running funny but fast combinations of engines stuffed into GP chassis.
You will get a lot farther with an XB-based racebike but if you can get a sweet deal on a tuber, figure you'll be getting seat time which is good, but when you get another bike -whether XB or rice - it's going to take you a while to get used to the stiffer chassis. The tube frames really wind up by comparison - and the handling is so much quicker. The XB is very tune-able with its stock suspension (assuming you have proper springs)
If you have the $$$ - spend it on suspension BEFORE the engine.
Talk to Max at Traxxion - regardless - he knows the Buells (old and new) |
Benm2
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 09:55 pm: |
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Do S1's sell for more or less than X1's? The S1 seems to have more of a "cult classic" following; the X1 never seemed able to equal its attraction.
Curious to know what you all decide upon.
For those with old tuber experience, if I upgrade my front forks with stiffer springs will it affect the performance of the rear shock? Also, would turn-in be affected by "raising" the front end on braking? Interested to hear your opinions.
Ben |
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