| Author | Message | ||
     Whodom |
I'm changing fluids and checking for oil pump gear wear on my 2000 S3 this morning. Took the bike for a 5 mile ride, came home, immediately dumped engine oil and transmission oil. When I was wiping off the magnetic transmission drain plug, I found a ~1/4" I.D. external snap wring stuck to the plug. The bike has exhibited no unusual behavior at all. It shifts fine, doesn't grind, doesn't miss gears, neutral is easy to find. I'm looking at my parts book and I see 3 potential candidate snap rings, all on the shift linkage. Any advice on what to do next would be GREATLY appreciated. Do I need to go ahead and start disassembly to install/replace the snap ring? Any possibility this was something accidentally dropped in the transmission and it just now floated to the drain plug? I've owned the bike since ~6500 miles and this is my 2nd transmission oil change. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Whodom |
Still studying this thing. After looking REALLY hard in the parts book, I am almost sure this snap ring is index no. 17 (edit, thought it was 16 originally), a snap ring that holds the shifter pawl on the back of the shifter shaft assembly. I don't see any way this ring could have come off on its own, and it's not damaged or anything that would indicate that something forced it off. Like I said, the transmission shifts fine. Anyone ever had a shifter pawl mysteriously fall off? Would that just make the transmission impossible to shift, or could it wind up in the primary chain somehow? There's a spring that also holds it in the proper position, so even if the ring came off by some weird means I don't see how the pawl could come off. Looks like I would have to pull off primary cover AND engine sprocket, clutch, and primary chain to get to this thing to inspect it, but the manual isn't real clear. Can the shifter shaft assembly be pulled with the clutch in place? Again, any suggestions would be immensely appreciated. (Message edited by whodom on June 25, 2005) | ||
| Patrickh |
That sounds like the right ring, when I changed out my detent plate that ring was bent a bit. | ||
| Firemanjim |
Yup,it will sneak by. | ||
| Whodom |
Jim, So I can pull primary cover, and pull shifter shaft assembly and pawl out to check to see if the snap ring is missing without pulling primary drive? Anybody want to give me odds on whether this is a freak stray snap ring that ended up in my primary or this is the snap ring off of my shifter shaft assembly? | ||
| Iamike |
Shoot, I just got done working on mine with the cover off, I could have tried to look down and see if the dentent plate is visible. I am guessing that you will have to pull the primary chain to get to it. Not a really hard job, an impact wrench makes it much easier. | ||
| Rocketman |
You have nothing to worry about. You can remove the complete tranny in about an hour and it's easy. Not saying that's what you need to do but it's a good excuse to give it a proper inspection \ service \ clean \ fresh oil for little more effort. Rocket | ||
| Reepicheep |
I agree with Rocket, just dig in there and fix it right. If it is that snap ring (and it does not look like a traditional snap ring, more like little plate of spring steel with figers sticking up), you will soon not be able to shift up or down, and there is a good chance part of the detente plate is already being machined by your clutch pack. | ||
| Whodom |
Reepi, what I found is a standard snap external snap ring. From the exploded view in the parts book the only piece that looks like it is item number 17 (p/n 11185). This is definitely not the retainer that holds on the detent plate. I think I will be able to inspect the shifter shaft assembly by pulling the inspection cover and looking in with a dental mirror or something similar. If I find the snap ring in place, I'm gonna consider this piece a "stray" that found its way into my transmission somehow. If it's missing, I guess I get to tear into the primary tomorrow. I still don't see any way that anything could have "forced" this snap ring off of the shaft without something major detonating inside the primary case. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning towards the "stray snap ring" theory. (Message edited by whodom on June 25, 2005) | ||
| Whodom |
Rocketman, I should mention that I don't have any impact tools so it would be a BIG job for me to tear into the transmission. I'm really hoping I don't have to. | ||
| Patrickh |
I have had the primary out without using air tools, so have many other people. It is not a big deal. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Absolutely, I have the air tools, but they are cheap, I only use them when all else fails. A half inch drive 2" long breaker bar will do fine, you can get one that does not wratchet for like $6 at your local auto parts store. A big torque wrench helps as well, but you can even improvise for that by standing on the wrench at a distance from the nut determined by your weight. We can help with the math if that is not your forte, but you can't lie about your weight  | ||
| Reepicheep |
And if you could show a picture from the exploded parts or service manual showing where the part you suspect goes, we can be of more help... | ||
| Whodom |
Reepi, thanks for the additional advice. I have a good 1/2" breaker bar (Craftsman) and a decent 1/2" drive torque wrench (one from Sam's Club). If it comes to that, looks like my main trouble will be figuring out how to keep the crank from turning. Duh- sorry I didn't think of that earlier. Section of exploded view from parts book below. Item number 17 is the only piece that looks like a standard external snap ring.  Here's a photo of the actual snap ring I found (sorry for the lousy focus):  Haven't gotten out to look further this morning yet; I'll probably have to run over to Harbor Freight and see if they have some kind of inspection mirror I can get into the primary inspection hole to see if my snap ring is still in place or this is it. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Ahhh... I see. I would just plan on pulling the primary chain... otherwise I would always be worrying about it. I just took a piece of scrap aluminum U channel (from an old sliding door hanger) and trimmed it to be about the size of the factory tool. Has worked fine for countless primary chain removals on the Cyclone. I have also used an old towel. tangle it up there opposite rotation. It works pretty well, but being non rigid makes it tougher to get the torque just right when putting it back together. | ||
| Whodom |
OK, just pulled the inspection cover and I'm almost certain I'll be able to see the suspect snap ring with a dental mirror. I took a short length of 1" x 1/4" wood scrap I have, pushed the shifter down and wedged the piece of wood between the shifter and the frame to hold it in this position. This rotates the shifter shaft forward, which raises the pawl to the highest position. If I hold the primary chain up, I can easily see the front side of the suspect assembly just above the ring gear on the clutch. Now I just need to get a small mirror that I can slip in behind it (there appears to be ample room) so that I can see behind it where the snap ring (hopefully) resides. Thanks for the tip on the engine stop; I have some aluminum scrap laying around. Did you make something similar to what Al Lighton sells? | ||
| Reepicheep |
Nothing so fancy... Al's tool is FAR nicer. I just took a piece of aluminum U channel (actually from a sliding closet door channel I pulled out of my first house when replacing them with folding doors). Your basic moderately thick scrap aluminum. I just cut it to the right length (not very fussy) with a hacksaw and used it over and over. I tried hard oak, it will split and splinter, but the towel works OK. | ||
| Whodom |
Well, I will definitely be pulling the primary cover off. My wife picked up a cheap dental mirror at the drug store and I probed, knelt, twisted, grimaced, cussed, etc. trying to see the questionable point in the linkage. If I got the mirror oriented right, I couldn't get enough light on it. Finally, about 2 PM, I got the mirror pointed almost perfectly, got the light lined up, had my eyeball in the precisely correct location, and just needed to move the mirror ~1/8" further to see it perfectly when.... "SNAP!". The end of the $2 dental mirror snaps off and drops down behind the clutch! I was actually almost relieved because now I don't have to agonize over what to do. Guess I will head over to the dealer tomorrow and pick up a primary cover gasket. I may still not have to pull the primary chain assembly, but at least I feel better knowing it's not THAT big of a deal if I have to after hearing from you guys. BTW, this also forced me to finally fix a wrung-off bolt I've had for about a year- the "pinch" bolt in the shifter linkage part that goes on the end of the shifter shaft (updated 2001/2002 shifter assembly). I managed to saw the bolt in half through the gap in the piece using a Dremel tool and cutoff wheel, get the top half out, and then pull the linkage part off with a battery terminal puller without destroying it. So, at least THAT went right this weekend. I still have to drill out the remainder of the bolt and re-tap the threads. Better to do this under my carport than have something go wrong out on the road with no easy way to get the primary cover off. Again, thanks for the tips and advice. | ||
| Patrickh |
IMO you should pull the cover and get that sucker torn down. One thing I have learned from riding Buells that if anything falls off or if any strange sound begins you'll be better off pulling apart the offending assembly and really finding out whats wrong. If you fart around or let it slide for too long you will end up with a much bigger problem. Pulling your primary assembly seems kinda scary but it really is not that big of a deal. How big is that ring? It looks like a piece of the clutch assebmly? The ring I had rattle loose is #24 in your diagram. My shop manual is at the shop so I can't look at it right now. | ||
| Whodom |
Patrick, the ring is 1/4" I.D. If the illustrations in the parts diagram are really accurate, the only normal snap ring shown is item number 17. I'll find out one day this week; probably tomorrow. | ||
| Ceejay |
I just had my primary apart last weekend, easy job to do with basic hand tools, I agree with Patrickh about that snap ring looks like the one from the clutch pack, which if you pulled your derby cover(I think that is what it is called, the big round one) you would know in a hurry, but I have never had the shift lever apart so I don't know if that is the same clip or not. if you have the newer gasket on your primary cover you might not need to replace if you take it off cause I have reused mine a couple of times with no problems, but I would look for that clutch adjustment first, pull the derby, unscrew the adjustment assembly and it should be sitting right in front of you, if that's not there well then your half way to getting the rest of it done, and you might even be able to pull that shifter without pulling the primary and clutch pack. good luck. | ||
| Bomber |
Who -- you're doing the right thing but tearin inot the poor dear (specially now that there's a mirror wandering around in there -- I thought I was the only guy that did that kinda thing -- welcome to the club, brother!) just as a data point, though -- as an ex-technical writer and preparer of manuals for things mechanical, electrical, electronic, pneumatic, hydraulic and majikal, it is well known that the illustrations in parts books are notoriously prone to being slightly inaccurate -- the reasons are many -- running changes during the year, the fact that they are prepared, approved, and sent to print months before the model is initially released, and, if memory serves, my M2 parts book has a disclaimer in it saying, basically, "don't use this thing as a assembly manual -- it's got mistakes in it." we in the tech writing department used to refer to the inaccuracies in the manuals are errors -- when I supported myself by spinning wrenches (remind me to tell you of the misprinted torque spec I discoverd in a Citroen SM manual in St Louise in 100 degree heat somedaye), we called em "jokes." | ||
| Whodom |
Bomber, nice to know I'm not the only one that's ever done something like that. Of course, it occurs to me now if I'd just bitten the bullet Saturday morning as soon as I found the snap ring, I could have done the full disassembly and put it back together by now. Ah well, we've got a 40% chance of rain today so it's probably not the best day to ride anyway. That's a good point about the technical illustrations and I'll check everything while I have the primary cover off. The thing about that illustration that strikes me is that there are 4 or 5 different "retainers" labeled, but every one is drawn slightly different and there is only one that looks like a standard snap ring (which matches what I found). Buell's either got some really accurate or really bored draftsmen doing their tech manuals. | ||
| Road_thing |
"remind me to tell you" OK, that's it, the last straw, I'm fining you one pair of fine lizard-skin Tony Lamas, size 12. They'd better be in my mailbox PDQ, or it's gonna go hard on ya...  rt ...happy birthday to me... | ||
| Bomber |
Who -- I learned a trick from a buddy years ago -- it's served me very well in the multi-vehical motorpool (and with my iffy memory ;-} ) when I find a "joke" in a manual, I make a note on the offending page -- my manuals are chock full a little drawing, notations, torque values and tips to ease the work as I sit on the milk crate and try not to make the problem worse . . . the worst offenders, over the years, have been the color codes in the electrical section -- before JIT manuafacturing, it was not uncommon for em to run outa violet with a green strip wire, and ya know thay ain't gonna shut down the line while the shop monkee runs to the wire store . . . my comments should not be takin as complaining bout the Buell manuals, which are some of the best I've used (outside of the military, which spend way more on tech docs than anyone else, and for good reason) . . . | ||
| Reepicheep |
Dental mirror in the primary? Ha! That's NOTHING. Ask me about the time I was laying down in my garage floor, under an SV-650 at a 20 degree angle leaning on a bag of mulch on top of some milk crates, wondering how much it will cost to get the cases split to remove a 24" length of nylon strapping from the crank case, and trying not to be sick at the thought of it. (it turned out fine after I took a LONG deep breath and calmed myself)... Get the metal primary gasket. They are a little pricey, but are much easier to install, can be reused, and far less likely to leak. If that is the original primary chain tensioner in there, replace that with the upgraded part as well while you are in there. | ||
| Whodom |
Reepi, already replaced the primary chain tensioner and installed a metal gasket ~1 year ago right after I got the bike. Nice to hear from two people that the gasket is reusable. That saves me a trip and ~$15 at the dealer. | ||
| Budo |
The other thing that I usually forget is that the nuts for the primary drives are left hand thread, one is for sure maybe both. Just a thought | ||
| Bomber |
heck, Thang -- if ya need size 12s, I'll just buy me some new Combat Touring boots, in 12, and keep em! yet another thing we have in common ;-} Happy merry, brother! | ||
| Whodom |
Alright fellow Buellers, the primary cover is off and the errant snap ring is definitely item no. 17 in the diagram above. I was FINALLY able to see the place it goes after I retrieved the broken dental mirror and used it along with a flashlight in the open primary to see. Firemanjim seemed to say in his post above that I'd be able to sneak the shifter shaft assembly and pawl out without pulling the primary drive, but danged if I see how it's possible. I removed the nuts from the shifter shaft base and it'll wiggle but I don't see any way it's gonna come out past the clutch. Soooo, unless someone tells me differently I guess I'll be pulling the primary drive tomorrow. Actually, the pawl looks like it's pretty well "captured" where it is, but I've gone this far so I'm not taking any chances. Reepi, do you use your scrap aluminum piece the way Al shows his- blocked between the engine sprocket and clutch sprocket? I sure don't want to hose anything else up at this point. Thanks again for all the suggestions and info. |
