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Archive through June 12, 2005M1combat30 06-12-05  04:51 am
         

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Jima4media
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

You would have to re-gear the F1 car also. Currently they are geared for a certain top speed at each track. The gearing is for quicker acceleration coming out of the low speed corners.

They also have ballast to bring them up to a weight specification of 600kg at the end of a race without fuel.

Jensen Button didn't have that weight in his BAR Honda after San Marino and was suspended for two races. They almost suspended him for six months, and almost fined the team more than $1 million dollars.

(Message edited by jima4media on June 12, 2005)
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Steve_a
Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

With no downforce, car and bike times are a lot, lot closer. You can do a comparison with something like a Formula Ford with minimal downforce to bikes with similar power to weight ratios, for example.

Bikes can't use downforce readily because they lean into corners. A passive aerodynamics design that produces downforce in an upright position would load the tires the wrong direction as you lean; when you leaned more than 45 degrees it would make cornering speed lower rather than higher. Assuming bikes are cornering at about 1.3 to 1.5 g's max (I haven't seen recent data, but that would correspond fairly well with the lean angles we see), and the cars are taking fast corners at 4 g's, that means they're going more than 60 percent faster than the bikes in a fast corner. There's no way you can make that difference up on acceleration or top speed, particularly as you're acceleration limited by wheelies on a bike anyway. Until someone figures out to create and use a lot of downforce (or even aerodynamic sideforce) on a two wheeled vehicle (and you can certainly conceive of ways to do it, but not easily), GP bikes will get their heads handed to them by F1 cars.
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M1combat
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 02:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"Jensen Button didn't have that weight in his BAR Honda after San Marino and was suspended for two races. "

Not quite... BAR was caught running a fuel tank with two chambers in it. When the steward (Charlie Whiting) drained and checked the fuel in the car it was at or above the 600Kg limit. The problem cropped up when they found the extra chamber that still had fuel in it. After emptying the second chamber, the car was below 600Kg. this meant that the car was able to run a number of Kilo's under weight equal to the weight of the fuel in the second chamber during the first two stints (They had a certain number of Kg's in fuel instead of in dead weight like the rest of the teams) this is obviously very much against the rules. They were almost suspended for the rest of the year because they acted as if they hadn't done anything wrong. They BLATANTLY cheated in a big way. They didn't inform the FIA of their modification (they are supposed to) and when they were caught, they adopted the wrong attitude about it. They acted as if it was just a little thing that was inconsequential and wouldn't have affected lap times. Once the math was done, it worked out to be a .2 second advantage per lap (I believe it was 5-6L). This coupled with the fact that they could do two more laps on the same starting weight and you have a large advantage. IMO, they should have been booted for the year.

Here's why...

Even now, you can see that the front wing of the BAR flexes WAY too much at high speed. They are required to support a certain weight with each wing and have no deflection. They will certainly deflect a little at speeds approaching 175 and beyond, but BAR's wings flex more than other teams. They are still cheating... They have found a way to offer a structural rigidity up to a certain load and then the rigidity drops off rapidly, allowing a lower coefficient of drag at high speed. They're trying to cover up a bad engine...

In this case, they aren't violating the letter of the rule, but they are violating the spirit of the rule.

BAR are the loudest when it comes to bashing Ferrari for testing more than any other team... Ferrari is the only competitive team giving good info to Bridgestone. They have to.
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M1combat
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 02:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

"when you leaned more than 45 degrees it would make cornering speed lower rather than higher."

Which is why I mentioned above that lift might be a good idea. Especially if you could dial in the lift as you dialed in lean angle... Something computer controlled could do it pretty easily.
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Rocketman
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 05:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Ferrari spending 10 times more than any other team to get them where they are today has switched many millions off the sport. I'm one of them.

Depends what you mean by cheating.

Rocket
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M1combat
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Well... I'm all for "bending" the rules and all that... That's a large portion of how progress happens. However, the wing issue has long been the subject of a gentlemen's agreement of sorts.

Ferrari have been dominating due to light weight fuel and oil, not money spent. They haven't had the largest budget for at least five years or better. Look to Toyota and McLaren for that. F1 has become "boring" over the last few years because of the decisions that Bernie has made. Good grief... GROOVED tires? Pretty soon we'll be using one liter V12 engines spinning at 42K RPM's. If Bernie had a clue, he would have made a rule that defines the min/max distance between the roll center and the CG...
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Sarodude
Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)


quote:

But rest assured that car drivers are missing one thing that bike racers have, oops, excuse me it's two things (usually).




As a former racer of the 4 wheeled variety and a motorcyclist afraid of getting on the track on 2 wheels - I think I can probably agree...

-Saro
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Jim,
I don't know one way or the other, but without the added down-force I have a hard time seeing that the extra HP and braking power would be that much more superior. Even superbikes are spinning the rear wheel. Aerodyanmics of an F1 car without underbelly and wings would be better than a GP bike? I don't see that at all as being a foregone conclusion.

I do see that a single track vehicle will have significant geometric advantage in negotiation of the turns.

The 250cc two-stroke shifter-cart (mucho down force, super lightweight) track record at Oak Hill is only approximately one second better than the outright motorcycle track record, and about three seconds better than the comparably powered 600cc IL4 motorcycle record.

Take away the down force on those carts. What happens?

Like I said, I dunno.
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Blake
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Imonabus,

Yeah, big hairy ones for sure. No argument from me that F1 cars aren't faster/quicker in race form than GP bikes; but without the F1 cars' aerodynamic components that generate downforce do you hold the same opinion?
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Imonabuss
Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

Yep.
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Bandm
Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

My neighbor races a 250cc shifter sprint kart, no aerodynamics. Here are some numbers, 52 RWHP, 180 pounds, 0-60 3 seconds, 130mph top speed, 3+ G's cornering, 0 to 100 to 0, 9.5 seconds, faster than an Ferrari Enzo or a 427 Cobra. He has an enduro kart with 2 250cc two strokes, aerodynamics, runs faster lap times at Milwaukee Speedway, than the Indy cars. Has an exhibition kart 2 405cc two strokes, 6 speeds, 160 RWHP, 210 pounds, aerodynamics, 170+ mph. Super karts were removed as a support race for IRL because on most tracks lap times were as fast as the slower Indy qualifiers. F1 car striped down, no ballast, would weigh what, 500kg? I vote F1. Kart vs bike?

Next time the neighbor's company (karting related) rents Blackhawk Farms, I'll see if he's up for a little kart/bike showdown. Last time I went to one of these outings, they blew by my X-1 so fast it was embarrassing, so a real bike and rider would be needed.
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Jima4media
Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Custodian/Admin Only)

The SuperKarts will be racing during the MotoGP races next month at Laguna Seca.

This is from Kevin Schwantz's website -

"People look at these Super Karts and think they are cute little toys, but they haul butt around here," according to Eddie Lawson, who should know. The four-time world champion (1984, '86, '88, '89) set the Super Kart lap record at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 2003 - 1:23.875, an average speed of 100.864 mph. (As a point of reference, Troy Bayliss turned the fastest lap on a motorcycle at Laguna Seca when he road his Ducati around the circuit in 1:24.833 during the 2002 World Superbike Championship event.)

That is a 250cc motor, not a V-10 3,000cc motor.


http://www.schwantzschool.com/2005news/1-12-05.html



(Message edited by jima4media on June 16, 2005)
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