| Author | Message | ||
     Lake_Bueller |
I'm confused on  why you'd want the frame as a radiator  . Now bear with me but look at a picture of the 'bolt. Where do your legs fit on the bike? I've had enough "leg roasting" on my '98 S3T. See my point. Mennis | ||
| S320002 |
Brian, "Seriously, the main reason why they went with fuel in the frame is because of the intake. Correct?" Nope. If you have been paying attention you should know that "mass centralization" is one of the keys to Buells great handling. By the way what constitutes "a real gas tank"? "Now, suppose they go with a 60 degree liquid cooled job. They will be able to use a normal gas tank again. I'm also assuming that an oil tank would no longer be necessary either." The spread of a 60 degree angle would make it more difficult to fit into a 52" wheel base. Also since when did 60 degrees and liquid cooling preclude the need for oil? "Therefore, you have your choice of swingarm or frame to store the coolant. That way we can avoid ugly radiators and maintain a clean naked bike appearance. I'd suggest the frame only because it's more exposed to the air." In order for a radiator to work efficiently it needs to run large amounts of air past thin layers of coolnant. Pumping coolant through the frame or swingarm would only slightly cool the small amount of coolant in contact with the surface. Also all that hot liquid between your knees would be rather uncomfortable on anything but a cold day. Kinda like spilling a cup of McDonalds coffee in your lap. "They MUST have something drawn up already for a liquid cooled motor. There's no way the company will survive without one." What is magic about liquid cooling? Buell engineers have proved to be very inovative in the past. I wouldn't be surprised to see a novel approach to cooling efficiency. Greg | ||
| Dynarider |
Dave, sure hope you dont have any issues with your bike. Ukes will make it all out to be your fault & wont back you 1 bit. Sure they will sell you the bike at msrp, but after that its screw you time. Have had a number of issues with them in the past. Sean is a decent guy to deal with, but that chick they have at the desk is a complete bitch. They just told me it would be a month before they could even put a tire on my X1, what type of top notch dealership would pull that kinda crap? | ||
| Dynarider |
Also as far as using the frame as a radiator, what about the heat build up? Ever touch a hot radiator? Sure as hell wouldnt want any part of my body having to lean against that big exposed radiator. Big time thermal burns. As was mentioned, I too believe oil cooling would be the way to go. Small unobtrusive oil coolers work great on various suzukis. | ||
| Aaron |
Greg: walk towards the light. | ||
| Davegess |
Dynarider, sorry to hear that you have had problems. Keith Ulicki and I go back pretty far ands all I ever hear is good things. Dave | ||
| S320002 |
Aaron, I'll take a guess that you're referring to my comment about liquid cooling. I understand it's benifits and its faults. The engineer in me would like to see a ingenious alternative, and there are some alternatives. Greg | ||
| Aaron |
No, you missed my meaning entirely. Nevermind. You'll find out. | ||
| Blake |
Brian: It's like you never left. Glad to have you contributing again. Nothing wrong with brainstorming.  EB certainly exercises the limits of innovation. That's not possible until you figure out a way to explore outside the so called "box", looking far beyond the conventional wisdom. If the frame were to be made into a radiator, it could be shrouded/ducted to protect rider from excess heat. I like the air/oil cooling approach better though. | ||
| Brianh |
No he won't Aaron, this isn't SACBorg. "Also since when did 60 degrees and liquid cooling preclude the need for oil?" I wasn't trying to suggest that the angle of the cylinders had anything to do with oil. I'm assuming that a "modern" powerplant doesn't require an external oil tank. Don't see on on my Kwaker anyway. Getting rid of the external tank would be a good thing, no? "What is magic about liquid cooling?" Nothing, except that generally you can get a lot more reliable power out of a liquid cooled engine than an air/oil cooled one. And please don't take that comment to the literal right and start telling me about Suzuki Bandits and such. You know what I mean. Liquid cooling is popular for a reason. The reason Buell MUST have something drawn up is for nothing but shear marketing! If they ever hope to break into the mainstream motorcycle market, they need to go liquid. It's a perception thing. What young squid is gonna put out $10K large for 80hp and perceived old, unreliable technology? Personally, I hope they have plans for something greater than the Firebolt. It's a middle weight and they need a flagship. And to get there I think they need to go liquid. Yes, the Bolt is a neat motorcycle and I can't wait to ride one. But that's different than wanting to own it. So, yes the radiator frame is a ridiculous idea sure. But so is using it as a gas tank. And burnt legs didn't stop Erik from using that exhaust did they? Hey, put a full fairing on the bike, ala' the race Bolts, keep the coolant toward the rear of the frame, and route two air scoops through the fairing to cooling fins. Sounds goofy enough for Erik to try it. | ||
| Blake |
Aaron likes to tease.  | ||
| Dynarider |
I agree with Brian regarding the use of liquid cooling in order to attract future business. Granted they can get good power from air cooled, but Buell has the stigma of being just a sportier harley. The average consumer who is in the market for a "Buell type" bike will most likely go elsewhere based on past reputations with Harley & Buell, they leak oil, they breakdown, the have a lot of recalls, etc. In order to break this viscious cycle Buell will basically have to reinvent the wheel, come out with a new liquid or oil cooled engine that is in no way shape or form based on harley. Yea I know they claim the Firebolt & Blast engine are all new, but look at the basic design & premise. 45 degree air cooled, pushrod valves. Its the standard "harley" engine. Go to a wet sump engine, get rid of having 3 separate oil locations..primary..oil tank..& tranny. How many Buells have been sold since day 1? Just guessing here but it cant be more than 8-9000. I think Honda sells that many CBR's in 1 year. There is no reason that with Harleys money backing them Buell couldnt produce a worldclass sportbike. They did it with the V-Rod, kicked the competition right in the balls with the power output of that bike. Its pretty sad when you are on a "sportbike" & a damn Harely V-rod could probably kick your ass. | ||
| Aaron |
Blake: who me?  Dynarider: the 25,000th Buell built was being raffled off at Homecoming 2000. But you're right, there aren't a huge number of Buells in the world. | ||
| Dynarider |
Damn, I guess they made a few more than I thought. Still a paltry number when compared to the competition tho. I would genuinely love to see Buell become number 1 in the market, & I dont mean in that "Sportfighter" market they made up. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
That pretty much describes the Firebolt right now, it has: 1. oil jets under each piston 2. an oil cooler 3. larger oil capacity to spread the heat out 4. an oil tank (the swingarm) that also helps to radiate heat away from the oil 5. the fan behind the rear cylinder to keep things equal. | ||
| S320002 |
Brian, External oil tanks (dry sump systems) are used on "modern" high performance engines in F1, CART, NASCAR and others. Dry sump systems keep the crank from sloshing around in a puddle of oil and prevent oil starvation under high G loading or at severe lean angles. That's a good thing. Aaron, Obviously that went right over my head, sometimes I'm a little thick under the scalp. Maybe it'll come to me after a couple of beers. Greg ;-) | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Mainly that it lets you make more power while still passing EPA drive by sound tests. It's great at deadening sounds coming from the engine. __________________________________________________ Brian, Ok, so you want to put a Revolution engine in a Firebolt type chassis. I agree, from a marketing standpoint they need something in addition to (not replacing) the paint shaker they currently use. The question then is where do you put everything? Intake - where it is on the Firebolt/VROD Fuel - in the frame, like the Firebolt Exhaust - Under the engine, like the Firebolt Oil - like the VROD in the belly pan below the engine, (some creative routing for the oil drain will be needed) Rear Shock - Where the Firebolt has it That leaves the radiator and the reservoir tank. The Swingarm then becomes the coolant reservoir, and the radiator goes under the tail, like Bennelli and Britten have done. | ||
| José_Quiñones |
cross posted from ATC (I can't wait for the mail tommorow)
anybody want a sportster, cheap? | ||
| Anonymous |
You mean the Cycle World that is due on the news stands on APRIL 1? OOOOOOHHHHHHHH, I can't wait. Gullible is not the right word, but it is the one that comes to mind first. R | ||
| Rocketman |
Those people that think Buell needs a flagship of any sort other than what they already have in the XB9R have completely missed the point. When the S1 hit the streets back in 95/96 it was technologically advanced for such a minimalist bike it bucked norman trends, and at the same time it showed the world an alternative to motorcycle design. Forget recalls, unreliability, market forces or whatever, just look at the motorcycle as a motorcycle and it clearly does exactly what EB intended, and pretty much perfectly too. The XB is no different in this approach. EB has however, upped the stakes. The XB defies convention, and better still, it fits Buells criteria perfectly, which just go's to show how smart Buell really are. The S1 is a hard act to follow and yet follow it they did, but not in a conventional thinking way. They changed everything and yet it is still so easily RECOGNISABLE as a Buell motorcycle, and as such, they are not meant to be compared against or with any other brand of motorcycle, more, they should be judged on their OWN merit. This is Buells way and not the conventional or anyone elses way. Some of you need to open your bloody eyes. No, make that minds. THINGS ARE DIFFERENT ON A BUELL right ? Rocket in England | ||
| José_Quiñones |
Yeah, but if not enough people BUY them, it's all moot, isn't it? | ||
| Dynarider |
Things may be different on a Buell, but that doesnt always make it better. If they drop the ball on the Firebolt, Buell as a company may well be headed the way of the Dinosaur. Personally I like the lil Bolt but just having that & the Blast will not save them. Especially when we keep hearing rumors about the 1200 Bolt with 100+ hp. Why would anyone settle for the present incarnation when everyone believes the bigger, better, faster model is right around the corner? Here in the US small bikes have never sold particulary well, its all about 1 upmanship. Why get the 500EX when you can just get the ZX6, etc? A motorcycle is a very emotional purchase & a lot of it comes down to feeling proud about what you & your bike are capable of. Who roots for #2 or 3, we all want to be #1. | ||
| Raymaines |
How about a Streetfighter with a tube frame and a 60 degree water cooled V-Twin from the mother company? But It's Not A Buell | ||
| Rocketman |
You don't want enough people to buy them, you want them to buy just the ones you build. Exclusivety has its price is my point. Buells aren't about mainstream motorcycling and I'll never buy that 'everyone on a Honda' line that Court keeps flouting. If it were true, Buell would be building scooters and commuters by now. As for the bigger better model just around the corner, isn't it standard procedure these days for just about ALL major manufacturers to bring out a bigger better faster model EVERY bloody year, these days. Would you buy now a new last years R1 if it were the same price as this years R1 ? I think not, and that's why in the UK, last years R1's are at real knockdown prices. This practice doesn't help the resale value too as you've probably noticed. Like I said, exclusivety has its price, and its place too. Rocket in England | ||
| Rick_A |
I agree with Rocket here 100%. I also think Buell is going in the right direction. Buell has stayed true to themselves and all their original design philosiphies from the very beginning. I hope the trend continues. They do defy classification against all other makes...they should never...dare I say it...sell out to market demands. So what if they aren't as big as the big makes. As long as the company is profitable and thrives, what do their production numbers matter? I would rather continue seeing air cooling and pushrods...it's exciting seeing these powerplants evolve. More often than not, most contemporary sportbikes are capable of much more than the rider...so I care not what other bikes are capable of. Anyone can go fast in a straight line...Buells are designed to be fun corner carving STREETBIKES, and I truly hope that never changes.I don't think Buell will be dropping the ball on the Firebolt. The only thing that can endanger that sweet machine is the Harley part of the endeavor. I'm sure a new line of Firebolt based machinery is coming...and in my view...bigger is not always better.Let Harley be the one to sell out...again. Suzuki used air/oil cooling until the horsepower being produced exceeded the cooling capabilities and they resorted to liquid cooling...so they say...becoming the big pigs of the sportbike world...the opposite of what they started out as. Eventually they got it right again, but it took a while. Then again, Sims & Rohm built a 200+hp, 200+mph air-lunged gixxer...sooo air/oil cooling can't be all bad. | ||
| S320002 |
Rick A, As Court would say, YOU GET IT! If the gloom and doom guys are right Honda will never sell a single new Interceptor, after all it's 25 pounds heavier than last year with no increase in power. Heck by this time next year you ought to be able to buy one at the Dollar Store. Greg | ||
| Eeeeek |
Rocket: Your post oozes with ignorance as to how Americans think. "If it were true, Buell would be building scooters and commuters by now." Do you even know how funny that sounds on this side of the pond, Buell's home turf? Americans for the most part don't buy Motorcycles for practical reasons, they buy them for weekend rides and adventures. You don't see cities packed with bikes and scooters. The market here is not the same as in Europe. I suspect Buell wants to succeed on his home turf and frankly scooters and commuters just won't amount to didly. Americans like POWER. Look at the average squid on a superbike. Tires worn down the middle, front brakes shot and fork seals blown. Then look at the canyon straifers. hard in the corners and hard in the straights. Buell intended market with the lil' bolt is a small one. I'm not saying it's not valid, it's just not mainstream. Yes, Buell needs a flagship. Now, I've solved all of the company's problems, haven't I.  | ||
| Erik2 |
Dave, Are you serious about being #6 on the "LIST" at Uke's? Ever since the Firebolt was unveiled last summer, I have gone in there at least once a month inquiring about the bike. Each time I have asked about getting on a "list". Every time, by a variety of employees, I was told there is no list for Firebolt. I guess it is my own fault. I should have gone directly to Keith. Hope you enjoy yours. EG | ||
| Dynarider |
I agree that Exclusivety has its price, just ask any of the proud Excelsior Henderson owners. The price they paid for being one of the few to purchase one is a bankrupt business. | ||
| Dynarider |
Erik, you know how the list thing works dont you? It all depends on how well you get along with Keith. If you are in his "circle of friends" you automatically get on "the list" for anything you want. I have never actually seen this magical list, is it something like Santa would keep? Is it kept locked in a mason jar under seans desk? I know some people who have managed to get a new bike every year, yet others have waited far longer. |
