| Author | Message | ||
     Along4theride |
First off, sorry, no link. Buy the June issue of Motorcyclist magazine. Pic of a speed triple on the cover - "NAKED Boulevard Rockets" banner. Every motorcyclist needs to read the article, Blowing the Lid Off, on helmets and helmet standards. In short, Snell gets slammed pretty hard but its not sour grapes by manufacturers that don't have Snell approval - its reasoned scientific discussion of the different helmet standards and what they mean to your head. According to the article, many manufacturers sell Snell approved helmets in the US and different designs in other countries not because Snell is tougher to meet or better but, in fact, because they don't believe that a helmet built to meet Snell requirements provides the best protection against head injury. I just have to say it again - this is a must read article for everybody that rides and wears a helmet. To be 'fair' here is a link to SNELL's response to the article. http://www.smf.org/response.html | ||
| Dsergison |
wow. good reply | ||
| Along4theride |
The article and the reply are both very interesting. | ||
| Whodom |
A4, thanks for the heads up on the article. This brings to mind a comment attributed to Harry Hurt, the guy that did the big motorcycle accident study years ago. Supposedly Hurt was asked which helmet standard is best, DOT or SNELL? Hurt replied, "If you tell me what kind of accident you're going to have, I will tell you which helmet is best". It appears helmet design is a big compromise; things they do to make the helmet safer in a severe accident make it LESS safe for a minor accident, and vice-versa. | ||
| Henrik |
Didn't read the article, but the reply seems to nicely rebut all listed complaints. And do so based in peer reviewed research articles. Granted, I think Motorcyclist as a rag (term used on purpose) sucks. Ill informed, opinionated etc. etc. I guess it's good that the questions are raised, but, solely based on previous works of their's, they may well have stuck to their usual business practices and written a bunch of poorly researched drivel. Henrik | ||
| Skully |
Granted, I think Motorcyclist as a rag (term used on purpose) sucks. Ill informed, opinionated etc. etc. I tend to agree with you. Motorcyclist tends to not be very friendly to Buell in the magazine or in replies to email by Blake and me. However, they do have a positive article in this issue about racing a Buell at Daytona.  | ||
| Cataract2 |
Considering all my helmets are both DOT and Snell approved. I don't think I'm going to worry. Currently I wear an HJC AC-11 and have crashed in one. Saved my life. | ||
| Jeremyh |
i second to Cataract. Just get a helmet that meets both standards and save yourself the headache. | ||
| Djkaplan |
Considering all my helmets are both DOT and Snell approved. I don't think I'm going to worry. The article in Motorcyclist implies that the Snell rating makes your head subject to higher G-loadings than the less stringent DOT rating. The article also implies that the current Snell rating critieria needs to be revised. The HJC AC-11 did not finish well in the published data, and bottom-of-the-line DOT only helmets did. I'll reserve judgement on the statements made in the article. Obviously, this is going to cause some stirring in the industry as it has at Snell. | ||
| Rek |
Just get a helmet that meets both standards and save yourself the headache. Well...you might still have a headache but at least you'll be alive to enjoy it. Rob | ||
| Rocketman |
Similar articles have popped up in British bike journals in the past few months. One in particular was very well put together. It told of one government research labs findings and how they constructed different tests to simulate more realistic accident damage that occurs to crash helmets. Some of the top line helmets faired poorly in some tests. Surprisingly many of the cheaper modern plastic helmets faired very well. Wish I knewwhere the magazine was right now. One thing I do remember for sure. The Arai RX7RR4 is every bit as good as they say it is. If Arai find one every so slight imperfection at the end of the production line the helmet is destroyed - period - and every Arai is hand inspected before boxed for distribution. Rocket | ||
| Henrik |
Please read the reply from SNELL - it's got some good points and is actually based in current and recognized research. There is a good reason good research is carefully planned, defined and executed. If not, all you get is a worthless, half-a55ed guess. Henrik | ||
| Rek |
I'll be the first to admit that I understand little about the physics and/or dynamics of helmet construction. About a hundred years ago I was very active in subterrainean cartography (caving) where rockfall is a common hazard (read extremely sharp and pointy objects falling at high velocity). The gurus of the era stated quite emphatically that suspension helmets are infinitely superior to foam core, due to their ability to not only deflect objects but also that they flex upon impact and divert force away from the head. Foam core (the "experts" alledged) compacted upon impact and allowed the sharp pointy objects to penetrate the skull. So the question would be are the experts of yore full of baloney? Or if not, why isn't suspension part of motorcycle helmet construction? Rob | ||
| Twowheeldream |
ANY HELMET IS BETTER THAN NO HELMET!!! I've had to rely on 2 seperate helmets.... both have saved my life, and being full face helmets they have saved my face from being peeled off. Both times i hit helmet first and the impact seemed to be a lot more than just falling over... highside your bike but stay on it so that it slaps you on the ground.... or T-bone a car that pulls out in front of you and go flying over the car without touching it only to land on your forehead.... both were severe impacts in my opinion, and I wasn't going faster than 35mph either time... A lot of riders have a "slightly aggressive" riding style that would lead to speeds above 35mph on a regular basis... Reading the article i came to understand that the Snell helmets actually provided more protection for a harder impact. anyway, just my 2 cents... by the way... one was HJC $160.00 and the other was Fulmer $110.00. I now wear a Vega flip face $170.00. On a slightly different topic... used helmets make great stress relievers... have that annoying someone put it on (you know the ones who are always asking to try on your helmet, or maybe someone thats just pissin you off lately) when they get it on and they have that big smile on their face cuz they think its so cool.... wait long enough for the face sheild to start fogging up so they dont see it coming and punchem' right in the helmet.... use some restraint, but dont worry, they wont feel a thing. dont go crazy, only one or two hits cuz you dont want to get into a rythm...  man does it feel good... hehe you just dont want to knock them off their feet.  | ||
| Jlnance |
The gurus of the era stated quite emphatically that suspension helmets are infinitely superior to foam core, due to their ability to not only deflect objects but also that they flex upon impact and divert force away from the head. Foam core (the "experts" alledged) compacted upon impact and allowed the sharp pointy objects to penetrate the skull. My guess is that suspension helmets are much better for caving, but not quite for the reasons you were given. The difference is in the type of impact they are susposed to protect against. A motorcycle helmet is susposed to protect against a very forceful, one time impact. It is a sacrificial helment. It only works once, after you bump you have to get a new one. In a cave you would encounter less forceful bumps, and they would occur more than one time. A helmet that only worked once would not be good. I'd never considered the penetration issue, but I suspect it would be important in caving. There are specs as to how well a motorcycle helment must resist being punctured, but the primary design focus is on blunt impacts. The caving helmet probably is just the opposite. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Suspension helmets are used by construction workers every day. I've had a wrench dropped on my head from 2 stories above me. They work. I was a construction worker many moons ago | ||
| Bomber |
Rek -- I suspect that suspension helmets work great when the object is accelerating into the helmet - - the path is fairly predictable, and the helmet can be designed to, as you say, deflect the blow MC and Car helmets, on the other hand, more often than not are the moving object, contacting the stationary (or moving in a different direction, or there wouldn't be contact) one -- I'm thinkin suyspension helmets may not be able to stay correctly oriented on the noggin, due to the movement of the helmet (think the multiple impact scenario when you fall, and your helmet bounces off the pavement a number of times from different directions -- don't ask why this occurs to me so readily please) . . . . . also, the suspension part may fail completely, leaving you with only the protection that the shell affords I emphasize that I'm no expert, but a very interested stand buyer years ago, when Indy an F1 drivers wore polo shirts, their hemets WERE of a suspension type, with a cork lining, covered with cloth -- the cute little visors sure were neat though the biggest thing I got out of the piece (and Snell's response) was that, one, those folks who think they are experts are not particularly interested in examining other's data, and, two, there's so little data available, it's a cryin shame -- if drugs were released with as little research, people with torches and pitchforks would be storming FDA HQ as we speak | ||
| Blake |
Hard hats are not designed to protect against high speed blunt force impacts. They are designed to protect against relatively minor low speed blunt impacts like when hitting your head against an overhead obstacle/pipe/beam and they are designed to protect against dense sharp edged falling debris and dropped objects like nuts, bolts, and yes, wrenches. A hardhat or similar suspended shell design would not protect well in the case of a high speed blunt force impact. It simply lacks the capability to absorb the amount of energy involved. Reminds me of one of the tricks often perpetrated on rookie roustabouts working offshore. A large nail/spike would be partly driven into the heavy wooden drill floor just an inch or so to give it a firm support to withstand further more aggressive blows. The rookie would be challenged by his fellow crewmen that he could not sit on the rig floor blindfolded and drive the spike into the floor with minimal blows from a sledge hammer. He could start in any position he wished, usually kneeling with the sledge-hammer resting atop the nail-head. Invariably virtually everyone who attempts the feat feels the need to remove their hard hat prior to attempting the first blow. You guess the rest. Hint: A lot of nice shiny new hardhats fell victim to that test. | ||
| Chainsaw |
Hard hats are not designed to protect against high speed blunt force impacts Really Blake? Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Guess I should have said "They work for their intended design purposes, and in no way should this post constitute an endorsement for making suspension type motorcycle helmets." | ||
| Twowheeldream |
well obviously no one found my stress relief method very funny... anyway, it works, try it unless the person who annoys you is your wife or girlfriend.... that will only cause more stress. | ||
| Blake |
Patrick, I was answering this post, not yours. Court, we need some calendar fines! | ||
| Blake |
One statment made by the author of the MC article leads me to doubt the integrity of his entire commentary. It is so egregiously wrong it is scary...
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| Henrik |
Blake; that really is scary. That - grossly incorrect - assumption negates any conclusion that might have come from their "study." Like I said above; unless you research and plan prior to doing your own research, all you'll get is garbage. Henrik | ||
| Rek |
I should point out that caving helmets are not only designed to protect from falling objects, they are also provide protection during uncontrolled fall events. MISHA (I could have the accronym wrong) reg's are the prevailing doctrine (3-point chin straps, etc, etc). I've personally taken a 30 meter fall, w/ multiple impacts during the descent, and only experienced minor damage to the extremeties; no head wounds or concussion. Of course my carbide lamp was toast, and I lost a perfectly good set of Petzle ascenders in the process. But aside from a few bumps and bruises (and pissing blood for a week) I walked away unscathed. The reason I persist in this query is that my motorcycle helmet fits like a glove; full contact w/ my entire skull. It seems that having a bit of "dead air" between actual contact surface and the lining material would actually offer a tiny bit more room for error (is error the right word?) should a genuine impact (or series of impacts) occur. Just picking scabs. Rob | ||
| Davegess |
Rek, the filling in the MC helmet can absorb more energy and free air ever could. Cavng, climbing, bicycling helmets are a design compromise, actual so are MC helmets, that have to allow the level of exertion the person is making. If you wore a MC helmet for these kinds of very physical activities you might well overheat and pass out from heatstroke. Also I have to think that falling is far different than hitting bus. But like the quote above if you know what kind of accident you are going to have... If I was planning on bouncing my head off the pavement several times while tumbling down the street at 80 mph I woudl want something different than if I was planning on wacking a sharp piece of curbing or a signpost. Since i don't know I need ot accept something tha might not do either perfectly but does both acceptably. | ||
| Jlnance |
It seems that having a bit of "dead air" between actual contact surface and the lining material would actually offer a tiny bit more room for error Yes but ... Think of a motorcycle suspension. The softer you make it, the less you feel the bumps in the road, UNTIL YOU BOTTOM OUT. Once you bottom out, you're just screwed. A helmet is a lot like that. You have an inch or two of "travel" between your head and the outside of the helmet. The more of that travel you use up, the less you feel the bump. But if you use it all up before you stop, you're gonna hit hard. How stiff you want the helmets suspension depends on what type of bumps you are expecting. | ||
| Ratchdaddy |
I slid on my HJC CL-14 at 35 mph until I came to a stop. It was DOT and Snell. My wrist hurt, my ankle hurt, but my face didnt. I used to be a skid lid wearer. I am just glad I saw the light before my face saw the pavement. Dont know or care about the science but I can look at a snell/dot helmet next to a dot only helmet and tell the difference in quality. |
