| Author | Message | ||
     Jlnance |
I have been riding about a year. Before I started, I took the Riders Edge class, so I would have some idea of what I was doing. One thing that was emphasized in the class was not to use the front brakes in turns. I was kind of slack about that until I ended up under a Blast during the last day of class. That made a believer out of me. Since then I do not EVER touch the brakes with the bike leaned over. If I need to slow down in a turn, I'll straighten the bike up, brake, and lean it over again. At this point I do it more to form habits than to keep from falling. Here is the part I am unsure about. I know that really good riders DO use the front brake when they are turning. And if you want to talk to them about it they usually start off with "Not that I think you should try this ..." So, is braking it turns something I should never do, not something to do until I have been riding for 10 years, or is it something I should try and learn? | ||
| Mikej |
Do it if you have to, avoid it if you can, practice it when there's no need to to better understand what happens when you do. Hope that helps some. Keith Code and several others have some good books and videos out that cover the process. | ||
| Pcmodeler |
I can't help but feel it depends on road conditions and tire type. I had an instance with an older FJ600. I was switching lanes (on a one-way, two-lane road) just before a stop sign. As such, I was in a lean as I hit the brakes. The back tire ended up sliding out and the bike went down and me with it. Had the rear tire grabbed, I think I would have been ok. I'm sure I must have used both brakes as well. Anyway, I'm thinking with a nice track and some softer compound tires, it would probably be ok to do as such. | ||
| Djkaplan |
It's called "trail braking" and it is, indeed, for advanced riders only. There is very little margin for error at the very limits of traction when trail braking is used. Mikej makes a very good recommendation in practicing it when there's no need to. | ||
| Bomber |
it's one of thesoe techiques that raise arguments of almost religious fervor -- racers do it every lap -- some street riders never use the technique I'll second (third?) Mike's advice -- its a useful skill to have in your pocket -- practice in a safe environment .. it can be great fun! | ||
| M1combat |
One thing to remember is that practice makes permanent. NOT perfect. I say practice it when there's no need to so that you can get a feel for it a non-panic situation. I generally use the rear brake mid-corner if I need any at all, and I use both brakes coming into a corner. Rear brake modulation (because of the clutch varying the engine brake) has been difficult for me to learn, and I feel that it's the main cause for my propensity to wear out the center of the rear tire quickly. One thing I learned about using the brakes in a corner... I can almost ALWAYS just lean the bike over further, roll on the throttle and realize that this little XB12R has a LOT more balls than I do when it comes to safe lean angle  . I've rubbed the edges of my boots with them tucked into the engine, but never the peg feeler, and I assure you I've had the damn thing leaned WAY over... | ||
| Ingemar |
It's all about control. But it's the same with your rear brake. Don't think for a second you can brake harder with your rear than with the front. Not when you're straight and not when you're leaned over. Under most circumstances the front will give you the most stopping power possible. So yes, I use my front brake even when leaned over. I teach and discipline myself not to panic and grab a handful. I rather use the front brake for another reason and that is that the front brake gives much more feedback. With the rear you generally won't know when it's going wrong until it goes wrong. When applied gradually, your front end will tell you its about to go wrong. Unless of course your name is valentino rossi, then you know how to control a rear end sliding and skidding at 100+mph with your knee on the tarmac . | ||
| M1combat |
I don't think for a second that I can get more stopping power in any situation with the rear. Mid-corner braking isn't about stopping power. It's about control. The rear brake doesn't tend to cause the bike to want to stand up (due to extra compression of the forks and having a steeper rake). We may be talking about different things... If I'm in a situation where I've come in too hot I'll use both (but very little front, because again either will have the power to overcome grip), but in a situation where I just want to tighten up a corner (say for a double apex where the second is tighter than the first, or a decreasing radius turn) I'll drag the rear brake just a tad (while still on the gas) to shed speed and tighten the corner. Keep in mind... This is only what I do, and I did sleep in a Holiday Inn last night, so it may not work for you . | ||
| M1combat |
"I rather use the front brake for another reason and that is that the front brake gives much more feedback. With the rear you generally won't know when it's going wrong until it goes wrong. When applied gradually, your front end will tell you its about to go wrong. " I'm not sure I agree with that... I don't look for feedback from the brakes. I look for feedback from the tires. I use the brake to get the feedback that I am looking for out of the tires (Which I feel through the bars, pegs and seat). | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
MSF answer. Never do it. But if you'll remember, in the MSF class, they're talking about emergency stopping when they say straighten first. I'll reference shedding speed in a corner. I'll quadruple, or whatever it's gotten to now. Practice when not panicked and don't GRAB the brakes. Steady gradual pressure. Another piece of advice. If you commonly ride 80-120 mph, practice emergency stops from 80-120 mph. Might change your mind about riding 80-120 on the street... I, like M1, use a little rear, just dragging it, when needed. Using the front, for me at least, isn't good. It shifts weight forward changing the whole steering geometry; not good in a corner... (Message edited by charlieboy6649 on March 24, 2005) | ||
| Firemanjim |
Like anytime you use the brakes,using them judiciously will get you through.I have used front and rear going through turns,not all the time but when I have to.Just remember that applying the front brake will stand you up---and when you let off you will go back the other way--. | ||
| Al_lighton |
The MSF course that says not to brake in corners is essentially a beginners course. And that is exactly the right thing to tell beginners. Braking in corners can be done, as others have said here, but it is not a beginners skill, and trying to teach it to beginners will result only in crashes or very bad habits being formed. Grabbing a handful there will spill you about as fast as anything you can do and should be avoided where possible. Braking in a corner WILL cause the bike to stand up. Different bikes, even different tires on the same bike, will change that tendency somewhat, but all bikes will try to stand up if braking while leaned over. If you think about the the dynamics of it for a while, it makes perfect sense. Think of why a bike does a stoppie when the brakes are applied hard in a straight line, and then apply that thought to a bike leaned over in a corner where there are braking forces being applied. Think of where the stopping forces are being applied (i.e., rubber on road), and where the CG is relative to that. It will make sense if you think about it for a few minutes. If you let it stand you up, you'll do the opposite of why you were probably trying to stop to begin with, that is, you will increase your turning radius, not decrease it. You can compensate for the forces trying to stand you up by doing the exact same thing that you did to lean your bike over to begin with, but doing so will eat into your traction margin. In the case where the reason why you were braking is because you came into a corner too hot, or a decreasing radius corner, if you had that traction margin to begin with, the better choice is to use it by leaning over further in order to navigate the corner, rather than by braking. But there are exceptions to that, for instance, when the reason that you are braking is NOT because you entered the corner too hot for the radius, but rather, because something is there that requires you to slow down (i.e., road obstacle). Or, if you're already leaned over and scraping hard parts. But in the latter case, you'd better either be be doing it it because you're on a bike with very little lean clearance, OR, have serious gumball meats on those rims if the bike does have serious clearance, or you're gonna exceed your traction margins. The front end will slide out, and you'll be low siding before you know it. Watch racers go around a corner. Depending on the corner, they aren't either vertical or leaned to the max. There is a transition time entering the corner where they aren't leaned over fully, and during those moments before they are, they have not reached the limits of traction. So they CAN be braking while leaned over into the corner entry(trail braking), and can get better times by doing it. But you can bet that by the time they've got that bike all the way over, they aren't touching the brakes. MikeJ's advice was spot on. Learn to do it when you don't need to so you know how, for those latter cases I was talking about. But don't do it because of too hot corner entry. Al | ||
| Blake |
My opinion... Trail braking should be left for the track or rare emergency scenarios on the street. That's it. A fast racer will brake all the way to his apex then be on the throttle, gently at severe lean angles for both cases of course. At least according to a fast racer/instructor I know. | ||
| Got1nut |
Twist of the Wrist II by Keith Code. Buy it, read it and practice it. | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
I like to think that I do a pretty good job of slowing before entry. Definitely a good habit for new riders like me. (I have yet to do a trackday but look forward to it) I usually downshift enough beforehand that a slight drag on the rear up to the corner is all I need. That's all I ever tend to use. I really do never touch the front when cornering. I know Al is right about the better decision to add steering input instead; from bad experience  . If the downshifts haven't done a sufficient job, I use the front, but it's released as the bike comes over. I actually enjoy the feeling of the bike "setting its self" into a corner as I come off the brakes as much as I do the acceleration coming out. It's a cool feeling. | ||
| M1combat |
If you only use the front... The front dives and the rear comes up. This drastically changes the wheel base and rake, and changes the trail as well. If you just drag the rear a little, it brings both ends down. As I said before though, I agree... Something like that should be practiced when there is no traffic at lower speeds in a non-panic situation. Start slow and with little pressure. If you just drag the rear break just a little, you'll notice the bike fall into the corner a little as you slow down and the turn will get sharper. My goal wouldn't be to test the "limit" of the break pressure I could use, but just to practice slowing gradually. If you test the limit (of anything), do it on a track with full gear. Also "Twist Of The Wrist I and II" - Kieth Code Total Control" - Lee Parks EXCELLENT books. | ||
| Lovematt |
What I tell new riders is to GO SLOW. I would suggest trying different situations in this order: 1. Go through turn with the same gas you normally would and LIGHTLY apply the front brake to get a feel for what that does to your riding. 2. Do the above and apply more brake in SMALL increments to see what that does...I suggest imagining an obstruction or obstacle to be avoided in an area that requires braking to help get around that area. 3. Do the above but adjust the throttle so you are giving less gas. 4. Do the above but let off the throttle completely. 5. Do #1-4 with the rear brake only and the same amount of throttle. 6. Do #5 with less throttle and no throttle at all. 7. Do #1-4 with both brakes in different/equal amounts of braking on each end and with same throttle, part throttle, no throttle at all. At this point you should have a good idea of how your bike will react with you on it. If this sounds like a lot...it is...and practice is always a good thing especially if you always ride in such a way to never need these skills...going for years at a time without a panic stop (or forcing yourself to do so) will not help you when the time comes when you come across a situation where you need to a "good" panic stop! (Message edited by lovematt on March 25, 2005) | ||
| Cruisin |
If I need a little brake, I'll use the rear...it does not change the handling nearly as much as using the front. I've definitely had a few corners that I couldn't fully see around...only to find it's three times tighter than I thought. I have had to use the front brake while still having the bike pitched over (anybody remember the Fuell in 2003 with the large hairpin - and the rock dividing the two sides?). So it can be done, and done well. Don't grab at it...by applying it smoothly you also can slowly exert more pressure on the inner handlebar to compensate for the bike wanting to stand up. It's hard to do that if you grab the brake too quickly. But be careful - that's how a friend of mine totaled my S2 - he was in a corner, thought he was going too fast (he wasn't) and grabbed the front brake. Not being used to the bike it stood up and he rode right off the corner into the ditch. | ||
| Rick_a |
I've used trail braking a bit...saved my ••• a few times too...just remember that the more lean angle you have the less brake you can use. You'd be amazed how much braking you can do at moderate angles. On the downside, I have lowsided once doing this when I crossed a damp paint stripe. The front wheel followed the stripe and brought me down instantly. There are a few world class racers that rarely use the rear brake, and some that rely heavily on it...do whatever suits the way you ride. There is no right/wrong if what you do works for you. | ||
| Jlnance |
Thanks for all the info here, it's very helpful. I have the Keith Code book, thats how I know that good riders do use the front brake. I also have Reg Pridmore's book. | ||
| Reepicheep |
Another note here is that it depends on the bike. I found my self always getting lightly on the rear brake setting up for a corner, and carrying that rear brake until I was well into the turn. It settled the bike down, probably shortened the wheelbase significantly, and simply made the bike work better through turns. Even on a Battletrax course. The same thing is true of the SV650's I have ridden. It made a big difference in how well the bike handled. When I got the new 9SX, I was doing the same thing by force of habit, and quickly found it was completely unnecessary. The chassis was well behaved regardless. I still occasionally trail the rear brake, but only to get some weight transferred to the front if I think I may need to make a panic stop (like going through an intersection where a car is preparing to turn left). The XB suspension is that much better (IMHO). | ||
| Jlnance |
The MSF course that says not to brake in corners is essentially a beginners course. And that is exactly the right thing to tell beginners. I've been thinking about the comment above for a couple of days. It puts a nice perspective on things. And it lets me see what I am really asking. Am I still a beginner, or is it time to start learning about more advanced things? My initial answer would be that yes, I am still a beginner. I have ridden for 9 months and 5000 miles. That hardly qualifies as an experienced rider. At the same time, I activly practice the beginner skills. I practice swerving whenever I see potholes in the road. If no one is behind me I practice quick stops at stoplights. I practice being smooth when I shift. I am SO MUCH better than I was 9 months ago. It doesn't feel like I am a beginner either. And then there is that voice warning me "you're going to get cocky and screw up." | ||
| Charlieboy6649 |
The truth is, you can't put a time frame on it. You'll do things on your bike, then you'll do things that makes your brain scream in a nanosecond, OK I wasn't ready for that. Do what your comfortable with and be your own best judge. I tried to be too bold to fast and after 6 months of riding totaled a bike. It was a horrible wakeup call but I've listened to that little voice ever since... | ||
| Dale |
I am still learning after almost 8 years and almost 300,000 Miles. Rear brakes at slow speeds is better to keep the bike from pitching its self over. At high speeds it is a good way to do a donut. Braking in corners all depends on tires, road, and lean angle. Most bikes tires can handle both braking and turning at the same time. It is not necessary to straighten the bike up all the way to brake. |
