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Hans
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 08:41 am: | 
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Did the outside peg thing just right: But to pull my other foot out of the V when the inside peg was upfolding. All egineered in. Isn`t that ingenious?
Happy New Year
Hans. |
Tripper
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 09:22 am: |
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Weight the outside peg Blake. Don't try to math your way out of this, just do it. And always countersteer unless your under 10 mph. The 2 big gyros will see you to safety. |
Rashomon
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 01:09 pm: |
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>>Lets see if I've got this right Jim. For a left curve you weight the right peg, apply pressure to the tank with your right knee, and as part of that motion push your butt to the left so you hang off a bit in the turn, and also your trunk and shoulders are pushed to the left causing a push on the left bar and pull on the right. I think I've got it now<<
Jima4media, is that what you're talking about?
If so, the effect may be to substitute leg and torso muscles for arm muscles to countersteer -- which will certainly reduce fatigue in a long race. I'm not sure the peg-weighting itself has much effect, except in the context that it very usefully sets up the body movement that does, and gives the rider a conscious way to achieve that result . . .
Or am I still missing something.
PS, I think the skiing analogy doesn't hold -- downhill skis are not single-track vehicles, and weight shifts on skis definitely effect weight distribution to the ground. Also, the effects of the ski edge on direction control are very different than that of pneumatic tires! |
S320002
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 05:45 pm: |
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Blake,
Unless you have verrrry short legs weghting the outside peg is easy, even while hanging off. I learned and used this technique long before I met Keith Code. As with most riding techniques experience is the best teacher.
Try giving a non-riding physicist a blank slate and ask him to explain the workings of motorcycle control, he will be tearing is hair out for as long as he can still grow it. Either that or he'll throw some simple eqations on the table and tell you that you crashed because you were'nt doing it right.
Did you ever hear the story of Joan Claybrook (NHTSA head) and her effort to improve motorcycle safety by making them rear steering?
I'll say it again. Lab physics never allows for all the variables of a complex system.
Remember: "If you're still riding you're still learning how to ride."_Greg |
Hans
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 06:22 pm: |
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The outer peg and the saddle: You need those places to give you resistance against the centrifugal force while rounding the corner.
I did it: Bought a toy gyroscope. Let it turn as a front wheel in an vertical plane hanging on two strings. Let it lean suddenly and the precession force turned the wheel into the corner.
So the precession caused by the sudden leaning, provoked by the short countersteering mouvement, helps you to get the bike again in line with the central gravity point for a balance controlled turn.
He he hans. |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 07:36 pm: |
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Hans,
I got a gyroscope for Christmas too. I haven't had one since I was a kid on a Vespa. It really shows how much gyroscopic force there is in such a small device. I can only imagine three gyroscopes spinning at 100 - 4000 rpm and weighing multiple 10s of pounds.
Jim
X-2.5 |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 07:41 pm: |
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Weighing the outside peg after leaning it over pretty much just happens, but I really can't see how or why you'd weigh the outside peg in the transition from upright, unless you're transitioning from a turn in the opposite direction. About cornering clearance, I crank 'er over to whatever extent feels right. When I get to where that's not enough I'm raising the rear suspension an inch and investing in a suit with knee pucks! |
Steveb
| | Posted on Friday, December 28, 2001 - 10:40 pm: |
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Jim,
Our old USN ship gyrocompasses turned at 20+K rpms, and the flywheel(s)weighed, (ok now, it's been 32 years since)
Arma = 22 lbs (perhaps a Cuba era model), and Sperry 14 lbs(perhaps pre WWII model), as I recall, and had very, very fine wires to the motors, so as not to precess them off North.
Steve Brefka |
Blake
| | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 04:24 am: |
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"Unless you have verrrry short legs weghting the outside peg is easy, even while hanging off. I learned and used this technique long before I met Keith Code. As with most riding techniques experience is the best teacher.
"
So you actually have MORE weight on the inside peg then? I cannot imagine leaning inside while having more weight on the outside peg. It is simply not possible within any reasonable scenario. |
S320002
| | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 10:28 am: |
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No. Don't try to imagine it, go out and try it.
One more thing. Hanging off before certain lean angles is a waste of time and aerodynamics.
Greg |
Hans
| | Posted on Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 12:52 pm: |
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This countersteer topic is very interesting as I not knew before how faster riders (about all of those Buelligans) managed to reach so quickly a great leaning angle without loosing speed. The salty road keeps my Buell in the stable so thinking about instead of trying it out.
Blake wrote: 'I cannot imagine leaning inside while having more weight on the outside peg.'
I will try to find and answer. Can`t let down the experts, who gave proof to be the best of all.
If you give "weight" on the outer foot before leaning you are just pressing the outer foot which brings your body weight to the inside and there it is rapidly needed because within a fraction of a second the centrigugal force sets in. And the full centrifugal force is reached within the next half second so that the pressure on the outer foot, which in first place was used only to replace your bodyweight to the inner corner, now has to be maintained but now for carrying your "weight".
Sounds logic to me.
Hans. |
Blake
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 12:55 am: |
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I think Blake sees the light of your wisdom. 
Are you talking about how a roadracer weights his outside peg in order to cantelever himself as far off the bike as possible in order to improve clearance and reduce lean angle? That's a racing maneuver right? Without the special racing pegs, I'm afraid my boot would slip off the peg. It's not the weight on the peg that gives extra clearance, it's the hanging way off that requires wedging the outside boot into the peg to keep from falling off. You've basically got your outside leg hooked over the bike with your outside foot trying to slide outwards off the peg while your knee presses into the tank. Two leverage points, one at the peg, the other at your knee/tank. Kinda like a long ice tea spoon resting handle end down in an empty coffee cup with the spoon end hanging way over the rim of the cup. |
Hans
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 03:07 pm: |
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There is no need to wedge the outer foot on the peg: resultant of centrifugal force and gravity is drawn in a very artistic impression and turned (easier for my own imagination) counterclockwise to show that there is plenty pressure on the outer peg while hanging alongside.
Happy New Year. |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 07:49 pm: |
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Weighting the footpeg is a steering manouevre. No matter what the bikes lean angle is, applying pressure to a foot peg will alter the steering.
Rocket in England |
Tripper
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 08:10 pm: |
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Not much. Let go the bars and stand on a peg. Shift to other peg. How far have you moved the bike? |
Rick_A
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 08:57 pm: |
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Put more pressure on a peg when you're in a good lean...it'll make more of a difference...but like any other input on a two wheeled vehicle, everything has to be put together. Everyone has their own riding style when it comes to these issues. There are roadracers out there that nearly drag elbows...you certainly can't tell them they're wrong, but it works for them. I have a tendancy to shift my weight farther into the turn, with my inside knee slightly tucked in, in order keep the bike a little more upright, to save my pegs, my knee, and hopefully my ass in case I need to tighten up my radius. It's worked so far, except for in one instance, and it's a street strategy...were I to go on a track I'd certainly learn some things and use a different strategy...anyway,
Happy New Year |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Sunday, December 30, 2001 - 09:50 pm: |
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There's a huge difference between riding on a track with street tyres and race compounds. Likewise, getting your knee down is difficult in the UK, but impossible in the States. You Yanks ain't got no roundabouts
Rocket in England |
Jima4media
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 01:50 am: |
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Rocket -
Ha - I've got roundabouts right here in my Hanchett Park sub-division in San Jose.
I've seen plenty of roundabouts in New Jersey as well - maybe they were imported from Old Jersey.
;-)
Jim
X-2.5 |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 02:05 am: |
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Where is Carl Fogharty when we need him?
Y'all sure have given this wanna be racer a lot to think about. Thanks for that. I can now see how the outer peg can be weighted.
Blake (doesn't hang off, just "out" |
Blake
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 02:25 am: |
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Hey Hans, re your ground down peg...
How's your shifter look? 
Luckily I was in high gear, imagine an unexpected upshift while cranked over like that on D205's. 
BTW, this is the same '00 Cyclone that is now for sale (see my classified ad and BUY IT NOW!!!). I expect the next owner to get the dusting of oxide ground off the warning nubs.  |
Rocketman
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 06:34 am: |
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Or maybe you bought 'em along with London Bridge
Rocket in England |
Jmartz
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 05:10 pm: |
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Rocketman:
You need not be in this discussion you lightweight CF wheels do not generate enough of a gyroscopic effect to be signficant. |
Peter
| | Posted on Monday, December 31, 2001 - 05:31 pm: |
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Blake,
This is what happens when you ground out the shifter in second. Even with Banke risers.
 "Click"
Why doesn't the "alreadyuploaded" format work?
PPiA |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 02:32 am: |
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Rocket: What R U implying brick boy? The grounds off bits of the peg feeler and shifter are scattered over the Blue Ridge Parkway. My riding boots are similarly beveled. Just a stock M2, nothing crazy like Peter and his track buddies dragging rearsets and mufflers. No way I'll ever drag the rearsets on my '97 Cyclone!
Peter: When did you notice the lever had gone, as it got tore off, or as you were reaching for 3rd gear? If it was while you were trying for third, that must have been a strange sensation. It would have been a cool souvenir if you could have found it.
When using the alreadyuploaded trick for a pic in another main topic, precede the filename with two dots ".." and the folder name as follows:
\jpeg_alreadyuploaded{../6817/6802, Shifter Gone}
And you get this...
Thanks, I really appreciate your efforts to conserve disk space.
Blake |
Peter
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 03:42 am: |
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TWO dots?
I tried it with one, but that was the best my eyes could see.
I noticed it was missing when I tried for third. It was lying just past the apex on that corner for the rest of the day. Just enough off the line not to run it over, but close enough to see it. I went out with Rocket to try a double wheelie up the straight and then pick it up, but we got chased off by one of the marshalls in his car.
Just a test;
I geddit now.....
PPiA |
Hans
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 01, 2002 - 12:06 pm: |
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Happy New Year to all.
Blake, you are stuuuupid to sell the proven BEST BIKE in the world,(for that low price). Anyway, I can imagine. Stupid things are attractive. Started with an apple in Paradise.
My shifter is still as good as new. It made me hang as an ape next the bike in Zandvoort in the scarce left turns (the riding direction is clockwise)to spare that little thing while without it, the fun would be over.
The last one was bolted through by a steel bolt, as is done here as part of the customizing process, when the the little peg is broken off.
Mine broke off when tipping over, so it was easy to find it without searching.
Bought a new one because the bolted through one could be too strong !! Easy to imagine what can happen if that peg doesn`t break off. Throw the old one even into the trashcan to not be seduced in case of.
Hans |
Werewulf
| | Posted on Thursday, January 03, 2002 - 06:03 am: |
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the driver of this car should have countersteered! http://66.197.129.238/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=242&forum=1&19 |
Blake
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 01:18 am: |
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Proponents of gyroscopic precession as a mechanism to steer/turn a motorcycle,
Some interesting facts about gyroscopic precession...
When the precession and spin axis are orthogonal (at a right angle to each other) like on a motorcycle, the equation of angular motion reduces to...
SMx=I1f'g'
where...
Mx is the applied moment about the X-axis (steering axis in our case) causing the precession.
I1 is the gyroscope's (wheel/tire assembly's) mass moment of inertia about the spin axis (Y-axis or axle in our case).
f' is the angular speed of precession (rate of leaning in our case) about the Z-axis (longitudinal axis of bike in our case).
g' is the angular speed of spin of the gyroscope (wheel/tire assembly in our case) about the y axis (axle in our case).
What does that equation tell us?
1. The gyroscope precesses about an axis perpendicular to both the spin axis and the moment axis. We already agreed on that I think.
2. The rate of precession (f') is inversely proportional to the rate of spin (g')for a given moment (Mx) acting on a gyroscope. In other words, as the front wheel on a motorcycle spins faster, gyroscopic precession becomes less and less effective in getting the bike to lean, (the bike leans more and more slowly).
What this also means is that for higher speeds on a motorcycle the effort required to get the front wheel to precess and the bike to lean increases proportionally with the speed, or the bike become harder and harder to countersteer as speed increases.
3. Large moments are required if the orientation of a rapidly spinning gyroscope is to be changed.
What this means is even just getting the wheel to turn takes significantly more effort at higher speeds.
End of discussion? Or do you want to refute the basic theory of dynamics? |
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