| Author | Message | ||
     Slaughter |
Long as we're speculating - I can't help but feel that the factory is helping Hals and others - but just in a really limited way | ||
| Xlcr |
I personally believe if they don't get more credibility soon, enough to translate into big sales, Harley will give up on them. 12,000 units sounds good compared to some of the Euro brands, but compared to the 69,000 Sportsters they sold it's pretty small beer. And they are probably making more profit per unit on the Sportys. Just the fact they aren't willing to spend some money on trying to win Daytona seems to me proof that they are ready to give up on Buell. BTW, what makes you think Buell makes a profit? | ||
| Slaughter |
BTW, what makes you think Buell makes a profit? Good question actually}. | ||
| Court |
Wow....apparently this website is keeping a few folks away from their Optimist Club meetings.  MOST (well over 90%) of the above information is inaccurate, the other 10% is rediculous. Cherish the blessing of consistency. | ||
| Buelliedan |
Lets see, 12,000 bikes sold at probably $1-2000 profit each. Just how much is that? Doesn't sound like too bad of a deal to me. I'll take the company!! | ||
| Jscott |
This is why I think H-D should be embarrassed http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2005/Mar/05030203u.htm Does Ducati even break even every year? I get sick of hearing about H-D's record profits every quarter and yet they will not help make sure that we have a grid full of privateers on American bikes at the years biggest FX racing event. How does this not outrage people? | ||
| Jscott |
The following was taken from AMASuperbike.com http://www.amasuperbike.com/article.php?UID=q3ryOmtBRxwVWJYwXdZn5Jx7Z4rJ1s&sc=11 20&aid=5704 "One of the most intriguing subplots in this year’s Daytona 200 is the possibility that an American-made motorcycle has an opportunity to win the race for the first time since Cal Rayborn rode a Harley-Davidson to victory in 1969. Buell will be represented by Shawn Higbee on the XB12R Lightning. Higbee is a veteran road racer and is excited about racing in the 200 once again. "Over the years, I have had the chance to work with several great teams,” Higbee said. “Now, I have the goal to bring together the best aspects of each of them into one cohesive unit. All of this hard work has really motivated me toward Daytona. I am really excited about the coming season." " The First time since 1969!! Willie G drop some dough!! We need Barney, Ciccotto, Higbee, and Co. to have a chance!! | ||
| Henrik |
You guys are nuts  why on earth would HD want to sponsor road racing? Even when they were fielding the VR1000 they couldn't move the Daytona masses from the burnout and jelly wrestling contests to the track. 3-400,000 people at the beach, and the grand stands at Daytona are pretty much empty. Makes no financial sense at all. Henrik | ||
| Buelliedan |
Henrik is absolutely right. the Harley Guys could care less about AMA racing. | ||
| Jscott |
H-D owns 98% Buell Buell makes sportbikes Daytona 200 = biggest race of the season Field full of Buell Sportbikes = possible podium Podium = EXPOSURE EXPOSURE = Sales Obviously an oversimplification. Call me nuts, but it doesn't sound like H-D wants Buell to succeed (Message edited by jscott on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
MOST (well over 90%) of the above information is inaccurate, the other 10% is rediculous. Cherish the blessing of consistency. 95% of all net statistics are made up  Henrik is absolutely right. the Harley Guys could care less about AMA racing. Damn straight, 200 Buell fans are certainly not going to fill the stands up. And HD loyalists really dont care about Buell at all. A Buell could win the 200 & Joe HD rider would yawn & say "so frickin what?". Lets see, 12,000 bikes sold at probably $1-2000 profit each. Just how much is that? Doesn't sound like too bad of a deal to me. I'll take the company!! Dan, I think your profit margin is way way off. Lot of suppliers & people in the pipeline that need to get paid & unless you are moving 100,000+ bikes you certainly arent making that type of profit. We do small runs of orders also & with them we dont make squat, its only on the large orders that the actual profits come into view. | ||
| Xlcrguy |
Jscott: Correction-HD owns 100% of Buell, for a couple years, now. Are you kidding? Of course, the mother ship wants Buell to succeed. Why field a full-blown factory effort only to get smoked like a cheap cigar by the likes of Yamahondasuki with much deeper pockets? There is a plan; Patience, grasshopper. | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Actually I believe HD still owns 98% while Erik owns the other 2%. | ||
| Jscott |
I never mentioned a "full-blown factory effort" , only that they would help the struggling teams that apparently will have to miss Daytona (Hals, Innovative Research, etc.). I believe this is the second year in a row that Hals have had to miss Daytona. With all the major magazine articles written about the Buell FX effort recently (Cycle World, Road Racing World, etc.) I believe that it is a missed opportunity. The 200 is a long race and many things happen, its not far fetched to think that one of the stronger Buell teams could podium. Maybe I'm crazy, but I get frustrated by the lack of support (not full factory) our teams receive. Especially considering H-D's deep pockets. (Message edited by jscott on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Buells Rule! (Dyna in disguise) |
Gotta agree with Jscott, HD helping out Hals & a few of the other teams could indeed lead to a podium finish which would certainly lead to increased sales. Kinda hard to win a race & get national exposure if you arent even in the race. Had that nice article in Cycle World about the FX teams & now its a non event for the most part. | ||
| Henrik |
As someone else mentioned, Buell and HD are most likely different cost centers. Buell has a budget that they can spend on (mostly - I'm guessing) what they want. With the one big condition: ... They Need To Remain Profitable! My guess is, that at this point in the game, the available $$ is better spent designing/building/refining bikes for sale. Complaining about HD not giving Buell racing money is a bit like me complaining that my (imaginary ) rich uncle won't buy me a Ferrari - why on earth would he want to ... ? Now, if I could come up with a sound business plan for said purchase, then maybe. But don't get me wrong though - I would love for Buell to feature more prominently in Road Racing. Based on the little I know about Erik Buell, I imagine he would too . Some day ...? Henrik | ||
| M1combat |
Why don't the teams share a pit crew? I'm completely assuming that the issue is finding people to change tires and re-fuel... They could stage the stops and one team could try to do them all... I'm cheap... buy me a plane ticket (or a bus ticket for that matter)... I'll help. | ||
| X1tx |
I'm with M1. I'd pit crew cheap. I'd get myself there and they could put me up in a tent or in one of the rigs. If it would help get another bike on the grid.......... | ||
| Firebolt020283 |
i would do it to and all i would ask for is to get to start it up and sit on it just once i wouldnt even have to ride it | ||
| Xlcr |
Well, let's review Harley's screw-ups so far: 1. The VR1000 effort should never have happened, for all the reasons mentioned above. Harley riders don't care, and Harley doesn't make sport bikes. I guess Harley was not aware of how much money they were going to need to spend to win. Had they checked on what Honda, for instance, was spending, it may have given them a little reality check. At that point, they should have decided to spend as much, or not try in the first place. Racing Superbike economy style was nothing but a formula for major embarassment. And if they had decided to get serious about it, they should have called it a Buell from the get-go, AND sold a production version. I know all about that nonsense about validating the V-Rod, but that's bullshit. The cruiser market doesn't care, and the Revo isn't really the VR motor anyway. SO it was all a huge waste of time and money that did Harley's image more harm than good. 2. They are spending the money to keep Buell alive, but not enough to make them what they HAVE to be to succeed. What they have to be is mainstream and world class. As things stand now, Buells are cult bikes for the few. A person can come here and live in their own little Buell world, and associate with fellow Buellers and undercover factory guys and pretend all is well with the world, but I spend most of my time out there in the real world, and on boards like CF, CW, MCUSA, Gigabikes, and others, and there you will find a completely different opinion of Buell, and it's not pretty. There are guys, at least one of whom posts here, that make it a profession to bad-mouth Buells on mainstream boards. They will lurk for days waiting for someone to post asking about whether it's a good idea to buy a Buell, and then they will pounce with every horror story ever published on line about the problems with the early Buells. It doesn't matter to them that the XBs have greatly improved that record. And the poor prospective customer will never know, because after that treatment they will never come within a mile of a Buell. So, you say, that's OK, because Buell will eventually live that down. Yeah, right! Harleys have been more or less reliable since the Evo was introduced in 1984, and yet every day you can find fresh posts from people who believe as gospel that Harleys leak massive quantities of oil, shed nuts and bolts as they go down the road, and break down at daily intervals. That would be over 20 years now, and they still don't believe Harleys have improved. How long can Buell afford to wait for mainstream acceptance? REMEMBER, the real truth is never anywhere near as important as what people believe is true. 3. The Japanese have put forth a massive effort and spent huge amounts of money trying to take the cruiser market away from Harley. So far, they haven't succeeded, but that is certainly no reason for complacency. Harley needs to try every bit as hard and spend at least as much to penetrate the sport bike market in turn. Why? Harley's demographic is aging. The current Harley riders were mostly brought on board by the bad boy Harley image created by years of biker gang movies and sensationalist newspaper and magazine copy. It was mostly sheer luck that Harley had nothing to do with. That bullshit about Harley being marketing wizards is just that, bullshit. Harley introduced just the right bike at the right time in the Evo Softtail, and then they got lucky. I hope to God the movers and shakers at Harley aren't stupid enough to believe that hype themselves, because that image won't work for the next generation. To the 20-something riders out there, Harleys are the brand that's ridden by fat graying wannabe posers that prescribe painkillers and pull teeth for a living. THAT image is not going to get those kids on a Harley when they tire of sport bikes. That means if Harley wants to play it safe and insure the next generation of riders is on Harleys and Buells, they need to make at least some Buells that appeal to the mainstream, which means to sport bike riders that buy from the spec sheet, and write the bike in question off without any farther consideration if those specs fall short of the competition. The only other thing that impresses them is racing wins, and here we are again. Harley needs to spend enough to give Buell some racing wins, and Harley needs to spend enough to fund a Buell that's at least a fast as a Ducati 999. It doesn't need to outrun GSX-R1000s, but it does need to be in the hunt. And if these efforts lose money, so be it. That's the way the competition works, and to play the sport bike game, Harley MUST do the same. It comes to this. I have no idea what the actual figures might be, but here's the concept; if you spend 50 million and fail, you wasted it all. If you spend 75 million and succeed, then the extra 25 million was worth every penny. Or as the old saying goes, "For the want of a nail, a shoe was lost". | ||
| Buelliedan |
I teach MSF and believe me the younger generation of riders still want harleys. You wouldn't believe how many brand new riders have already puicked out the harley they are going to buy. With shows like American Chopper dominating TV HD has nothing to worry about. Dyna, Why is it hard to believe that Buell makes $1000 profit on each bike? Do you really think it cost them $8000 each to make? | ||
| Xlcr |
Oh, I know there are many youngsters that like Harleys, but those that prefer sport bikes hold them in contempt. And in the absence of precise figures, are they enough to replace all of the Harley riders who will soon be too old? As far as choppers go, don't get me started on those pathetic imitations of a motorcycle. And that still doesn't address the real question at issue, how to get mainstream sport riders on a Buell. | ||
| Viros |
Cant help but wonder if theres other reasons why Hals wont be racing at the daytona 200... it would look pretty bad if several buells werent able to finish the race.. | ||
| M1combat |
"As far as choppers go, don't get me started on those pathetic imitations of a motorcycle." You ••••••• idiot... Motorcycles are about individuality and self expression. What better way to achieve that than by hand-crafting a motorcycle that looks exactly the way you want it to and is a rolling incarnate of yourself... Go buy your ••••••• spec sheet •••••••... Me, I'll continue along my way towards a rigid '48 panhead. When you blast by me doing 52 miles an hour down an interstate on your '77 (isn't that a jap bike?) I'll be sure to let you know you're number one... Sorry Blake... I'll wait patiently until my ban expires. I've worked up about five responses to this guy and when I got done I just decided to not post them because they won't help. I know this one won't either, but I feel better telling him how I really feel... You know, I think I've figured you out... You just want life to conform to your expectations just because it's the way YOU see it. Wake up and smell the Buell exhaust. I suppose that chopped and channeled Caddy I saw auctioned for $400,000 on Barret Jackson was a pathetic imitation of a car too eh? Get a clue. (Message edited by m1combat on March 04, 2005) | ||
| Xlcr |
Unlike you, I have no intention of stooping to insult, I have no need of it. Back in the '70s I rode and partied with several gang members. They built their own choppers out of old junkers and auctioned off police bikes IN THEIR GARAGE! They even did all their own painting and welding. Unfortunately, that seems to have gone out with the '70s. No one does that now, not when it's so much easier and more prestigious to have Jesse James or OCC do all the work. So don't even attempt to insult my integrity and intelligence by claiming that taking a $35,000 check down to a pack of pumped up morons like the Tutules and telling them to crank one out has anything at all to do with individual creativity. Even they don't 'create' most of the bikes they build. I've watched a few times, and mostly what I saw was them taking parts out of boxes and bolting them together. That's creativity? FLASH! You don't buy creativity. Those over-blown, over-priced, over-rated, and virtually unridable pieces of crap are nothing but chrome penis extensions for people who have something to compensate for, and I'm shocked that someone who calls himself a sport biker would defend them. There are two of them around here and neither even have a front brake! You couldn't pay me to ride them. PS, you can keep the Caddy too, all it needs is white fur upholstery and neon lights underneath to make a perfect pimpmoble. For the same amount of money I could get a '65 Shelby Cobra with a 427 Sideoiler in it. And I apologize to Old Shel for mentioning his car and a Caddy in the same paragraph. | ||
| Xlcr |
Also, I can't believe you are so lacking in class as to insult the best attempt at a sport bike Harley has ever made, and the clear spiritual Grandfather of all Buells, just because you don't care for what its owner has to say. | ||
| Anonymous |
Nope, Dyna, wrong again. H-D owns 100%. | ||
| M1combat |
"I have no intention of stooping to insult" You already did... I'm not talking about choppers from TV. I'm talking about choppers from me. I'm talking about garage choppers (and I don't mean just Harleys either). I'm talking about bikes built with blood sweat and tears by hand by the person riding them. I hear you when you would rather buy a '65 Shelby, but that's not the point... The song remains the same... I think Buell is in a much better position than you do, and you have yet to mention any well thought out ideas that really suggest otherwise. I edited the message above because it was a tad harsh and it was the end of a work day when I posted it. | ||
| Madduck |
I have 5 nephews between the ages of 21 to 26. They all started with dirtbikes, atvs and most of all snowmobiles, live in minnesota. They love the adrenaline rush acceleration gives them. They listen to no one but their friends and I don't think they read any magazines. The first one to say this is cool, or green is in this year and off they go. They make pretty good money and dispose of it immediately, cost is the critical factor. Selling thes kids something with a marketing campaign or racing is a waste of time. Put a buell in a video game and you have half a chance. Nothing over 10k tho. I live about 100 miles from the cities where most have found employment. That is an all day ride on a 600 il4. They love Harleys and can't wait till they can afford one and the insurance. All of the girls that have shown up with them especially like harley's. One reason the kids slow down and the seat is comfortable. And it is easy to look cute on a cruiser, all of your clothing choices are available and they come with luggage to carry stuff. Mainly the next generation understands that it isn't about the numbers its about having fun. Harley sells that better than anyone. Back to Buell, that City X has a tremendous appeal to every one of them. Whoever thought that up, aimed it right at them. Hell of an idea.  (Message edited by MadDuck on March 05, 2005) | ||
| Cataract2 |
Food for thought, is it by chance that Harley took on Buell with the intention of bringing in the sportbike crowd with Buell? I'm saying yes to this. Get them interested with a "Harley sportbike" but play it safe by not using our name. For all we know they're testing the waters a bit with the XB line to see if they can get a bite. Makes you wonder what Buell might have in the lineup. Time will tell., |
